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Redrum68 (Allies) vs Lascar (Axis) #2 - Lascar Welcome - 1/19/2022 3:34:50 AM

redrum68

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Lascar has offered to play mirror games now that we finished our first 2 games. We've agreed on the following house rules to address some of the issues we had in the first 2 games. Here are the rules:

1. UK limits its BEF ground commitment to France to no more than 8 total corps with up to 2 being armor/mech (HQs don't count).
2. Axis limited to only 2 surface ship groups for raiding convoy lanes.
3. Axis limits its ground commitment to Libya/Egypt area to no more than 8 total corps with up to 3 being armor/mech (HQs and Italian garrison units don't count). If the Allies invade Vichy North Africa then the there is no longer any limit.

Game on!

< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 3:17:32 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Redrum68 (Allies) vs Lascar (Axis) #2 - NO Lascar - 1/19/2022 5:06:48 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

3. Axis limits its ground commitment to Libya/Egypt area to no more than 8 total corps with up to 3 being armor/mech (HQs and Italian garrison units don't count). If the Allies invade Vichy North Africa then the there is no longer any limit.

Just one question, did Lascar use the Royal Navy to attack supplies against your ports in Libya? Doing so is reducing a lot supplies for your army.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to redrum68)

Post #: 2

RE: Redrum68 (Allies) vs Lascar (Axis) #2 - NO Lascar - 1/19/2022 5:19:59 PM

redrum68

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quote:

Just one question, did Lascar use the Royal Navy to attack supplies against your ports in Libya? Doing so is reducing a lot supplies for your army.

A little bit but its hard to do against the entire German and Italian air forces sitting in Sicily and Libya. But even if he did it doesn't really matter since I believe you still get basic supply even if the port supply is attacked.

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Sept 1, 1939 - 2/3/2022 2:21:55 AM

redrum68

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Sept 1, 1939

So with the house rules, the plan is to max the BEF ground commitment to the 2 armor + 6 infantry corps and add in a few fighters to contest the skies. This will hopefully force a lot of German casualties to improve USSR's chance to survive.

Pretty standard German opening in Poland:

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Sept 15, 1939 - 2/3/2022 2:23:22 AM

redrum68

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Sept 15, 1939

Poland and Denmark surrender with the standard German attacks.

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Sept 29, 1939 - 2/3/2022 2:29:26 AM

redrum68

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Sept 29, 1939

Here are the casualties after the Poland and Denmark campaigns which is about average from what I've seen in other games. Not a great start to the BoA as Allies have lost 6 MM and 1 escort already and I don't plan to invest much into BoA until after France falls.

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< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 2:30:35 AM >

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Apr 26, 1940 - 2/3/2022 2:38:35 AM

redrum68

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Apr 26, 1940

Let's fast forward to the start of the battle of France!

The Allies decide to invade Luxembourg to improve their defensive positions and they immediately surrender. Barring bad weather, we expect the Germans to start the invasion next turn. The British have 6 infantry + 1 armor corps in position and just waiting for the final armor corps to be built. We also have 1 extra British fighter with 2 more being completed shortly.

The plan is to avoid Belgium falling turn 1 so the Germans have to grind through it or attack the Netherlands.

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< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 2:53:20 AM >

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RE: Apr 26, 1940 - 2/3/2022 2:39:36 AM

redrum68

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Apr 26, 1940 - Casualties

Here are the casualties before the battle of France and the BoA has gone better than expected after the rough start.

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< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 2:53:33 AM >

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May 10, 1939 - 2/3/2022 2:44:03 AM

redrum68

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May 10, 1940

The Germans capture Luxembourg and begin pushing into Belgium but don't declare war on the Netherlands. This is good news as it will allow the Allies to set up a proper defense of Belgium. The weak Belgium corps are pulled back to France and replaced with British/French corps. Another British fighter is completed raising our Allied fighter force to 8. The Allies brace for impact...

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< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 2:53:44 AM >

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May 24, 1939 - 2/3/2022 2:49:17 AM

redrum68

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May 24, 1940

The Germans seeing the defense of Belgium realize their mistake and declare war on the Netherlands but were not in position to capture it in 1 turn. This compounds their challenges as now the Allies can also look to contest Amsterdam and the river lines south of it. Dutch units are moved back to France to free up space for the Allies to move in. Amsterdam will probably fall but make the Germans waste lots of attacks.

Lascar asks to further limit BEF commitment to France given the rough start and its agreed to limit commitment to only 5 instead of 8 corps so the others are railed to French ports to depart for spring break!

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< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 2:58:33 AM >

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June 7, 1940 - 2/3/2022 2:58:18 AM

redrum68

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June 7, 1940

Amsterdam falls after a massive bombing and attack by the Germans. Unfortunately the Allies make a miscalculation and a few units retreat north of Amsterdam and are now doomed. But Belgium defenses are still looking strong and there are a lot of tired German units already. The second British armor corps arrives as the Allies look for an opportunity to counter attack near Brussels with the 2 French + 2 British armor corps.

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< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 3:20:54 AM >

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June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 3:08:54 AM

redrum68

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June 21, 1940 - Axis Surrender!

The Axis after a few attacks and mounting casualties no longer see a way to capture Paris in 1940 and decide to surrender while they can still get favorable terms. Its a bit earlier than I expected but understand looking at that wall of Allied units and not wanting to continue on. The French had finally gotten their infantry techs this turn and upgraded all their units which can be seen in the increased strength values.

The final British forces supporting France are:
- 2 armor corps
- 2 infantry corps (with another 4-5 in the UK that could have been sent to France without the house rules)
- 6 fighters
- 3 tact bombers

The Belgians still have a handful of infantry corps as well which are surprisingly almost as good as the French.

Overall thoughts:
- The big issue this game was taking Luxembourg and the Germans not being prepared to shift their invasion through the Netherlands. This is really unhistorical and I think should be changed to have much more severe penalty for the Allies invading it.
- Belgium should probably be weakened and that combined with severe penalties for the Allies invading Luxembourg should allow for a 1 turn surrender of Belgium consistently.
- The BEF commitment was significant though not as strong as last game. The extra fighters were starting to cause higher German air casualties so not a bad investment though I still think ground units are the most efficient investment.
- The WDF really should be frozen in Egypt or not added til later to avoid in ending up in France.

Comments and questions welcome!

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< Message edited by redrum68 -- 2/3/2022 3:24:36 AM >

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 10:42:47 AM

stjeand

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Some of my thoughts...

1) Axis should never use air in Poland. Maybe just me...all they do is lose air and have to rebuild. Leaving the Polish air changes nothing overall.
2) I hate the Allies being allowed to attack Luxemburg...but if they do the Germans have to switch to hit Netherlands first then Belgium. Could be in the same turn if they are confident of that. Both should surrender in a turn at most. Belgium is not to strong...it is easy just need practice. SADLY you can not use the 1940 scenario to practice because the units are moved. NO idea why that is the case but they are. So my suggestion...Hotseat 1939 only play the Axis until you get to the invasion and save the game. Then you can play the attacks over and over practicing. BE very light on air use in those two places...you need all your air to be at 100% to hit France.
3) Another very unrealistic and issue I see if the French fleet...they are basically a free suicidal unit that the Allies just use as mobile artillery. They make the Netherlands twice as difficult to take and can cause issues on the coast in Belgium. As the Allies I don't use this as I find it an exploit due to the fleet being able to be sunk and then returning fully repaired. Air attacks against it are just free damage for the Allies so try not too. I think they should be stuck in the Med, personally.

Takes a lot of practice to take out the Netherlands and Belgium in one turn...

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 11:15:31 AM

stjeand

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FYI 8 corps is still alot...
The actual BEF was 3 / 4 infantry corps and an HQ and that was all.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 11:32:30 AM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Overall thoughts:
- The big issue this game was taking Luxembourg and the Germans not being prepared to shift their invasion through the Netherlands. This is really unhistorical and I think should be changed to have much more severe penalty for the Allies invading it.

I can't find a realistic penalty to prevent this. Do you have an idea?

For the big BEF, UK has four free infantry large corps at a strength of 5/30 at start. Reducing them to small corps or to division size is a first idea.

Second idea is to reduce the strength of their air superiority and bomber units to something like 10/20.

This way this is more PP to spend on defense more than on offense.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to redrum68)

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 1:26:08 PM

stjeand

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My thoughts were more that the UK must garrison their big ports with certain strength of units...if not they lose PP as people refuse to work due to fear.
Places like London, Southhampton, Liverpool...

As for Luxemburg...
I say if it is invaded Belgium joins the Axis due to fear of the aggressive West.
OR they move their defensive units from the Netherlands border to the French fearing attack. That would make Belgium fall more easily. No Allied players wants that.
This would allow the Axis to attack the Netherlands and go straight down to the Belgium capital without much of a fight...

This would require a few events...if Lux surrenders to Allies then remove units in hexes X and Y and place them in hexes A and B...
Something like that.

Although not realistic neither is the Allies invading Luxemburg.

I am sure many will say well the penalty is that Belgium does not join the Netherlands...

Air is now a bigger deal...the Allies can build quite a few fighters and just contest the air.
In my game with svient the Allies focused everything on their fighters...I believe there were 4 UK and 3 French...against 6 German...

The Germans lost 220 air...the PP replacement is over 2000PP to replace...that is 4 months of full PP...which cost the war.
Could not build any armor for Russia...
Weirdly I focused my supply trucks on my air...did not help. He said he never used any so not sure how his air won more often than not.
I do know I was not focused on air repair as I believe he was...I was trying to keep my army moving...which requires repairs too...
Will have to see if anything can be done to get around this other than just not using air and taking longer.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 5:02:43 PM

michaelCLARADY

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Upon seeing that Luxembourg was taken by France, the Axis Player should have postponed declaring war on Belgium for one turn while the Lux were liberated. This gives an actually improved position for a quick one turn take down of Belgium. After that the almost uniformly immobile French Army just gets in the way of that high end UK Army coming forward to engage until the French have been slaughtered and the Germans have chosen their ground for the Brit showdown. With just a bit of luck the nice shiny Brit machine is trashed and perhaps even partially trapped when France goes down. Also after spending everything on the Army the Brits find the BOA going against them in a water blitz IF the Germans have built a decent sub force.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 7:21:15 PM

stjeand

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As well they can attack the Netherlands without Belgium joining...

BUT in both cases...it is not trivial to destroy a full French corp across a river.
Could be costly.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 8:29:33 PM

sveint

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I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from a game where Germany fails to take Belgium.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 9:14:02 PM

ncc1701e

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Well, yes and no. Allies have 6 UK air superiority units plus 3 French air superiority units and 3 UK + 1 French Tactical bombers.
That's a lot of air power against Germany.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sveint)

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 9:18:11 PM

stjeand

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That will basically destroy the entire German airforce with little effort.
I now build 2 air superiority for 6....
The experience makes little difference sadly when you have to fight 50% units...

But yes there were a lot of German mistakes here...I know how to get around the Luxemburg thing but...air wise that would be an issue.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/3/2022 10:27:18 PM

redrum68

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quote:

1) Axis should never use air in Poland. Maybe just me...all they do is lose air and have to rebuild. Leaving the Polish air changes nothing overall.

6 air hits I don't think had any impact on this game. I don't think it matters much if you use air or not since you probably take about as many extra land hits without using air in my experience.

quote:

2) I hate the Allies being allowed to attack Luxemburg...but if they do the Germans have to switch to hit Netherlands first then Belgium. Could be in the same turn if they are confident of that. Both should surrender in a turn at most. Belgium is not to strong...it is easy just need practice. SADLY you can not use the 1940 scenario to practice because the units are moved. NO idea why that is the case but they are. So my suggestion...Hotseat 1939 only play the Axis until you get to the invasion and save the game. Then you can play the attacks over and over practicing. BE very light on air use in those two places...you need all your air to be at 100% to hit France.

I dunno, I feel that Belgium should fall in 1 turn more easily and shouldn't require a bunch of practice. Weakening Belgium a bit also makes it less harsh if you don't take it in 1 turn.

quote:

3) Another very unrealistic and issue I see if the French fleet...they are basically a free suicidal unit that the Allies just use as mobile artillery. They make the Netherlands twice as difficult to take and can cause issues on the coast in Belgium. As the Allies I don't use this as I find it an exploit due to the fleet being able to be sunk and then returning fully repaired. Air attacks against it are just free damage for the Allies so try not too. I think they should be stuck in the Med, personally.

Agree, French fleet should be limited to the Med to avoid gamey uses of it.

quote:

For the big BEF, UK has four free infantry large corps at a strength of 5/30 at start. Reducing them to small corps or to division size is a first idea.

Second idea is to reduce the strength of their air superiority and bomber units to something like 10/20.

My thoughts were more that the UK must garrison their big ports with certain strength of units...if not they lose PP as people refuse to work due to fear.
Places like London, Southhampton, Liverpool...

These ideas would help some though not sure there is a way currently to force a certain strength of units so just weakening more of UK's starting units would probably be easier. The other approach is to weaken France instead so the UK would take the brunt of the attack and not have lots of French units to wear the Germans down. Decreasing France's starting ground experience from 40% to 35% would be a simple and effective change.

quote:

As for Luxemburg...
I say if it is invaded Belgium joins the Axis due to fear of the aggressive West.

Agree this is simple and avoids lots of complex triggers that your other options would require.

quote:

I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from a game where Germany fails to take Belgium.

Well, yes and no. Allies have 6 UK air superiority units plus 3 French air superiority units and 3 UK + 1 French Tactical bombers.
That's a lot of air power against Germany.

That will basically destroy the entire German airforce with little effort.
I now build 2 air superiority for 6....
The experience makes little difference sadly when you have to fight 50% units...

But yes there were a lot of German mistakes here...I know how to get around the Luxemburg thing but...air wise that would be an issue.

Indeed this is just 1 game and there were some Axis mistakes but its a real example of PvP at probably intermediate level. I'd love to see more high level AARs where people try a strong BEF in the current patch. We can theorize all we want but example games are the best way to see how different approaches play out.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/4/2022 10:47:13 AM

stjeand

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For me every point counts...
6 air may seem trivial but that cost is 12+ infantry.

Germany needs every point early.

BUT I am sorry to say it does take practice to take the Netherlands and Belgium in one turn.
I played multiple games to that point to practice over and over and had figured it out.

Then I got lazy and stopped which cost me that ability. Now I have to practice again.

There is some luck too...if UK air defends you may not take it.

I don't like the idea of making it completely trivial because there is a chance that the Allies decide to walk in, take it and dig in behind all the rivers.
That could be more difficult.

I am more than happy to AAR a few heavy BEF games if anyone is interested as I have no games going on a playing myself...well sucks.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/4/2022 3:37:40 PM

redrum68

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Isn't 6 air hits on average like 36 PP (say 300 average air unit cost / 20 hits * .4 repair rate * 6 hits)? That would be 10 infantry hits or 5 panzer hits which I would think is close to the extra hits you'd take without using air. While I get every PP matters that is really a small amount compared to the randomness of the BoA and other things. Also you don't need to pay that cost til Spring 40 as you can just turn off repairs for units in Poland.

I think if the Allies declare war on Belgium there should be a severe penalty like the Netherlands join Axis or something to avoid them doing that.

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RE: June 21, 1940 - 2/4/2022 9:19:51 PM

stjeand

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You can...but when you have 12 air units with 10 str...you need a LOT of turns to repair them. At least 3...

My normal losses in Poland are less then 20 land....0 air.

I like to try to keep my experience for France since it will all be lost there with repairs. But again that is me.

6 air costs about that...
My game I lost 220 air...so that was pricey.

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