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Soviet Guards - 1/26/2022 6:44:14 PM

baloo7777

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Does anyone know the criteria for having a division become a Guards unit (in 1942 at least)? I read the manual that they can become Guards when they have enough wins. What is the number of wins they need? In my present (first, that is) Campaign PBEM as Soviets, I have several divisions I pulled back from the line at least 10 hexes from any Axis unit on a rail line. They have records on 4-1;5-2;6-4. It is almost the end of May 1942 and no Guards yet.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/26/2022 7:59:17 PM

carlkay58

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The magical mystical number 8 (or 10) pops into my mind but it is old and forgetful these days so don't bank on it.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/26/2022 8:04:58 PM

xhoel

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Another player in this thread (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5065682)
commented on the lack of guard units. If you are not seeing any guard units this late in the game then this looks like a bug.

Can you provide some more details?
Do you have 0 guard units?
Please post a screenshot with your units with most wins (excluding HQs).

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/26/2022 8:16:24 PM

IDGBIA

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In the first game I recall it was 8 wins with a formula going up as the years go on. In a game I have going right now I have a guards div with 7 wins but nothing lower so if you just get another win on your 6-4 you should get it, just move it round to join in on a sure thing attack, if you can see some German regiments sitting on plains or something would be ideal, losses mattered in wite 1 but I Think I recall loki saying losses dont matter in wite 2

my unit is in 41 though so its possible the game still has a formula going up but in the first game it only goes up by 1 win every year so if 7 isnt enough I'd expect 8 should be enough for you in 42

also the manual is actually wrong when it says guards renaming starts on t18 I've gotten guards on t12 in games vs the ai, obviously not possible against a player not spamming hastys but still

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< Message edited by IDGBIA -- 1/26/2022 8:19:03 PM >

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/26/2022 9:03:55 PM

Stamb

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In road to Leningrad I also had multiple guard divisions pretty early (scenario ends on t16 or t17) as AI gives free wins with a hasty attacks.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/26/2022 9:49:33 PM

IDGBIA

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I sometimes think there should maybe be a variable guards requirement option you can tick since the ai does loads of failed hasties and players often dont but soviet doesnt really need the buff at the moment so maybe just a higher requirement you could tick for playing ai games

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/26/2022 9:55:17 PM

Stamb

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I did a report of this issue and hopefully it will be fixed. I wanted to play GC vs Axis AI, as I had never played as Soviets, but because of this issue there is no reason to play it.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/27/2022 4:54:28 PM

baloo7777

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I'll try uploading a screenshot soon. We are playing pbem and I'd have to reveal my password-protected save to provide it. I have 2 Guards rifle corps made from Airborne into Guards Rifle Div's ( the AB that doesn't leave on turn 800 or whatever). That Guarda corp led to the 1st successful counter-attack in late April '42. Hit an extended Panzer Div from 4 sides with way overpowering odds. KIA'd 124 Axis Tanks while losing 116 of my own, but most of my Infantry was depleted/unready afterwards. He has 734 points and is 2 hexes away from a 10 point city end of May'42, so it was a moral victory for my first time playing Soviets. And I've never had problems with Soviet supplies, so it might not be historical that part anyways.

quote:

Can you provide some more details?
Do you have 0 guard units?
Please post a screenshot with your units with most wins (excluding HQs).

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/27/2022 5:25:56 PM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

I'll try uploading a screenshot soon. We are playing pbem and I'd have to reveal my password-protected save to provide it.

If you provide a save here for the devs to look at, you dont need to provide your password. They can access your save without it. As for the screenshot: You can censor the location/morale/experience of the units that you are showing. WE just need to see their win counts.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 4:19:12 PM

baloo7777

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This is from a couple of turns ago. I'll try showing a couple. I sent the other 3 back to the reserve last turn (before the post, but I'm old and forgot) in case that was where the Guards RD's are created. So here are a few others (I actually went through every soviet rifle division to find them. I don't really care if my opponent sees as it will take a miracle for the Soviets to survive 1942, and he will get clear weather on his next turn (rained literally all May) and mud has disappeared in some key places (he's at 734 pts).

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 4:25:06 PM

baloo7777

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Another one:

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 4:33:18 PM

baloo7777

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Last screenshot. I'll have to replace them in the line and get them together on a rail for a few cheap counter-attacks wherever I can. Likely not enough time to stop Axis win before they are made. Still, the first time I ever played the soviets in the campaign scenario, hopefully, I can do better and look into units battle record much earlier to make Guards RD.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 4:34:58 PM

baloo7777

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< Message edited by baloo7777 -- 1/28/2022 4:40:31 PM >

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 4:39:59 PM

baloo7777

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try uploading again...

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 6:02:50 PM

xhoel

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Cant say that I am seeing an issue. AFAIK most units need 8+ wins to reach guard status and so far none of these units have that. Im guessing you either didnt attack and win hard enough during the winter so you just dont have the wins for making guards.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 7:19:59 PM

Speedysteve

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Yes and it's not like it's guaranteed to go Guards with 8+ just like that. I have MANY units over 10 wins and a Cavalry Division with 17 wins sitting there for months drinking vodka and not upgrading their Ushanki...

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/28/2022 7:26:21 PM

StratmanWITX

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quote:

... sitting there for months drinking vodka and not upgrading their Ushanki...

ha-ha-ha such a good knowledge of the subject

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RE: Soviet Guards - 1/29/2022 12:45:20 AM

baloo7777

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I now have 2 RDs with 7 wins, so perhaps soon I can get the 8th win and see if they become Guards.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/1/2022 8:00:29 PM

baloo7777

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I was wondering why 1 RD with 8 wins(8-4) became a Guards RD, but the other that was stacked with it and had a better record (8-0) did not? I also had a third RD with 8 wins (8-3) in a different hex that became a Guards unit at the start of this turn. A couple of screenshots follow:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/1/2022 8:01:20 PM

baloo7777

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Second screenshot:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/1/2022 8:09:05 PM

Stamb

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Losses are irrelevant. Only victories are important.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/2/2022 7:20:30 AM

Speedysteve

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Also it�s very important to remember just because a unit has 8 wins it doesn�t automatically and immediately become Guards. It�s a random chance

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/2/2022 9:16:37 AM

tyronec

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As requested here are the Guards infantry units in my StB game with Rosencrantus. June '43.
50 Guards Rifle Corps plus a few bits and pieces. There are another 6 Mountain and Airborne Guards divisions.
This is June '43, would have been much the same in May '43.
Also worth noting that this is StB, in the '41 Campaign the Soviets are going to be able to fill up their Guards quota earlier.

There are two aspects to this that are not right.
1. The quota for Guards is too high, I have no real historical knowledge of when Guards Corps were created historically but this looks over the top.
2. The criteria for guards creation is not the best, as it has been since WITE1. A unit gets a Win regardless of the type of battle, so a division heroically holding off a Panzer division generates 1 win while several stacks of units trashing a Romanian infantry regiment could generate 6, 12 or even 18 wins. This insentivises the Soviet player to fight battles to generate guards units which becomes no minor part of the game, as I acknowledge I have done. Further the player who micro manages this, which I have not done, gains a further advantage. Have certainly seen a player highlighting units near to guards promotion in WITE1.

Suggestion would be to:
1. Review the number of units eligible to become Guards over the course of the game.
2. Guards promotion occurs as a result of an exceptionally good combat result rather than primarily on a cumulative number of Wins.

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< Message edited by tyronec -- 2/2/2022 9:21:39 AM >

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/2/2022 9:38:59 AM

xhoel

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@tyronec: Fully agree. I think the easiest thing to do for now is to reduce the number of units that can reach guards status while increasing the number of wins needed.

Your second suggestion is a good one but I think will be very hard to implement.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/2/2022 10:48:46 AM

Speedysteve

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All I can re-iterate is what I said in my one of my earlier posts. My 41 GC with Loki...I'm not swimming in Guards Units

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/2/2022 11:33:38 AM

baloo7777

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Thanks guys. My first PBEM as Soviets. My opponent had played WiTE1 but not WiTE2 and he's kicking my butt. He only needs 2 cities to sudden death win, and being desperate for better morale infantry I was hoping that I could get some Guards RD to use. Don't know about the historical Guards. Happy to get a few in summer '42 at least.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/3/2022 6:11:59 AM

tyronec

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quote:

@tyronec: Fully agree. I think the easiest thing to do for now is to reduce the number of units that can reach guards status while increasing the number of wins needed.

Your second suggestion is a good one but I think will be very hard to implement.

Increasing the number of wins needed would make the situation worse.
At present it takes about 9 wins for a promotion. Suppose that were increased to 18.
The players who are not farming wins would be significantly disadvantaged.
The players who are harvesting wins would simply do it better and would only be mildly disadvantaged.
Leading to a greater gap between the the styles of play and making micro management more of an advantage.

The system is poor, what is needed is to come up with a better parameter for guards promotion. I don't know what the answer is but am sure there are a variety of systems that would be an improvement on what we have now.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/3/2022 7:49:51 AM

xhoel

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@tyronec: My suggestion is a pragmatic one. I dont think that the devs will take extra time now to rebuild the guard system. AFAIK that would take too much time and has the possibility of messing up other things.

Increasing the number of wins needed from 9 to 11-12 while at the same time cutting down the percentage of units that can become guard will do the job. The percentage reductions will nerf the farming wins strategy.

If there are players that are not farming guards, especially during winter, then they need to start doing so. The current system is not optimal, true, but coming up with a better one and then implementing it is no easy task.

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RE: Soviet Guards - 2/3/2022 10:35:27 AM

Speedysteve

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To exemplify my situation, again, in the game vs Loki....up to September 1943....I've 78 units (including SU) that have 9+ wins that are non-Guards....I'm not swimming in them....