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USN Submarine Fleet Question?

 
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USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/29/2022 7:55:59 PM   
Gary D


Posts: 164
Joined: 6/6/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Gents;

Looking for some help on the numbers of USN submarines that would “usually” be on patrol at one time, as a percentage of subs available.

Say we have 20 subs based at PH, what percentage of them would be on patrol for a given period?

My feeling is that against the AI I tend to achieve too many kills, despite historical torpedoes, because at any given time I can keep 90% or so of my subs on patrol. Just called everybody back to port and am going to try 50 percent on patrol, 50 percent sitting in port and see how that feels.

A few google searches for historical averages did not provide much help, wondering how you folks operate your sub fleets.
Post #: 1
RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/29/2022 8:27:35 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		For more realism, you should give each returning submarine crew 2 weeks of I&I... I mean R&R before sending them out again. In the game, if the sub has only a few points of minor sys and engine damage to fix, it is being sent-out again after a day or two.

I don't have the figures for US subs in WWII, but for the German uboats operations a rule of thumbs said that at any time, one third of the force was refitting and resting in port, one third was in transit between homeport and patrol station and only one third was actually on patrol station. The only exception was the initial deployment at the opening of the war when almost all uboats had been positioned in advance.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 1/29/2022 8:29:03 PM >

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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Gary D)
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RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/29/2022 8:42:16 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		I guess the way you want to play is the key to what the answer is.
In a game, there are rules. They allow you to do things that might not be what was traditional.
Against a pbm player, you have the ability to set ground rules for things that otherwise would be allowed in the game.
Does the AI have Japanese BB remain in port for some time after they bombard an Allied port, or do they reload and set sail asap?
WEXF

(in reply to Gary D)
Post #: 3
RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/30/2022 6:56:44 AM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary D

My feeling is that against the AI I tend to achieve too many kills, despite historical torpedoes, because at any given time I can keep 90% or so of my subs on patrol. Just called everybody back to port and am going to try 50 percent on patrol, 50 percent sitting in port and see how that feels.





Another factor which hobbled historical US submarine performance as compared to their counterparts in the game was the torpedo shortage. The US Navy started the war with a few hundred torpedoes nearly half of which (233) were lost when the Japanese bombed the Cavite Navy Yard early in the war. Submarine torpedo production was all of 60 per month at the beginning of 1942. US submarines went to sea with two thirds of their optimum load with orders not to waste them. For merchants, one torpedo per target was the standing order.

However, I note my more aggressive sub skippers will often blow off their entire allotment in one go at one target and can always run home to find more. It's too bad that submarine torpedoes couldn't be a pool item like sea mines are. Often, it does seem like you have more minelayers available than mines.


< Message edited by Platoonist -- 1/30/2022 6:58:00 AM >

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RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/30/2022 8:38:54 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		If you have a look at the ship histories of the Gato/Balao boats on DANFS, you often see a record of how many war patrols they made, and how many days they were out.

Without being too precise about it, a Gato operational by late 1942 might have made around 10+ war patrols (e.g. Barb (12)) lasting between about 4 and 8 weeks.

A back of the envelope calculation suggests 4 patrols x ~6 weeks per annum, so about a <50% availability rate works, but that includes transits and time on station.

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RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/30/2022 8:54:13 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

... It's too bad that submarine torpedoes couldn't be a pool item like sea mines are. Often, it does seem like you have more minelayers available than mines.



They already do, sort off. Ports already have a rearm level based on the size of the port and supply held, plus each type of torpedo has it's own rearm cost. So I don't think it's needed.

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 6
RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/30/2022 10:16:07 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		I respectfully disagree, Chris21wen. This does not simulate the actual torpedo shortage, it just makes it slightly more difficult to obtain an unlimited supply of torpedoes. With an AS, port rearm level is moot and the only limiting factor remains supply, which for the Allies is not a limiting factor at all. A torpedo pool like for mines would be nice, including aerial torpedoes for the Netties etc. But then one could ask the same for other "rare" ordnance, like battleship caliber shells, heavy bombs etc. The mine production is too low, there are minelayers with capacities almost as large as the monthly production, i.e. one minelaying sortie per month by just one minelayer is about the maximum sustainable - doesn't seem right. In Scen 1, the Japanese get 165 type 93 and 67 type 4 per month, or less than 12k in 4 years of war. IRL, the Japanese laid over 55k mines just in Empire waters around Japan.

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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

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RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/30/2022 12:37:34 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I respectfully disagree, Chris21wen. This does not simulate the actual torpedo shortage, it just makes it slightly more difficult to obtain an unlimited supply of torpedoes. With an AS, port rearm level is moot and the only limiting factor remains supply, which for the Allies is not a limiting factor at all. ...


I agree, although later in the war this problem goes away. This is an interesting point though on the AS. If any new players watch those dojo videos, in an early one he dismisses Darwin as a possible sub base, seeming to be ignorant of the fact that a couple of ARs and ASs -and later on, an ARD added to about 1000 nav support built largely from the splinters out of the PI, turn the size 6 port into sub central - the only thing it can't do is fix big major engine damage, but Perth and Brisbane can do that.

The torpedo shortage is not modeled. However, the historical low rate of production of replacement IJN carrier aircraft in 1942 isn't effectively modeled either.

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Post #: 8
RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/30/2022 2:14:31 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary D

Gents;

Looking for some help on the numbers of USN submarines that would “usually” be on patrol at one time, as a percentage of subs available.

Say we have 20 subs based at PH, what percentage of them would be on patrol for a given period?

My feeling is that against the AI I tend to achieve too many kills, despite historical torpedoes, because at any given time I can keep 90% or so of my subs on patrol. Just called everybody back to port and am going to try 50 percent on patrol, 50 percent sitting in port and see how that feels.

A few google searches for historical averages did not provide much help, wondering how you folks operate your sub fleets.


quote:


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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> USN Submarine Fleet Question? Page: [1]

Gary,

others have answered your question directly. I suspect you could use a 50% at sea rule of thumb and get a historical feel, though that would be too high for the old S boats. By the time of the war, they were worn out.

Have you read Blair's "Silent Victory"? Also, if you want a cringe-worthy account of what is what like to be in an S boat, Gugliotta's Pigboat 39 is an eye opener.

(in reply to Gary D)
Post #: 9
RE: USN Submarine Fleet Question? - 1/31/2022 2:52:19 AM   
Gary D


Posts: 164
Joined: 6/6/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Thank you all for the ideas and information and refreshing my memory. I have read "Silent Victory" and will go dig through my boxes of older paperbacks to brush up.

All the best!
Gary






(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 10
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