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It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Boarding

 
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It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Boarding - 2/5/2022 4:27:34 PM   
zgrssd

 

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I admit it is wierd to have a suggestion about a game that is still 1 month from release, while I do not even have the Streamer or Beta versions.
But given that DW2 is in large parts DW1, a lot of the old issues still apply. So in a large part these are "things that I noticed in DW1 that I think have not been added by the general DW2 rework." And this time it will not even be a total nightmare to add any of those
I originally planned one big Thread, but thought splitting them up is better.


This threads Topic: Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Boarding

Support Component Counters
We have some support components, where only 1 is needed. Like the Medical Bay (I am guessing you did not change that).
And some where ideally we need Y amount. Reactors. Solar Panels. Boarding pods on troop transports
It would be cool if any information about this would be displayed when hovering over a component. So I do not end up adding a 2nd Medical Bay or a unessesary 5th Solar Panel by accident.

Limited rebuilding of wrecks
I originally thought this up for the Planet killer, but Erik was going to change that one anyway (partriculary the anti-ship power of the maingun would drop). But here goes anyway:
It would be cool if which compoents we can repair depends on how damaged the component is and how close we are in tech. With the remaing stuff we can either:
leave the damaged one in replace it with a working, lower tech one we have.

As a alternative option, allow us to scrap wrecks for technolgy directly, using construction ships.

Design/Retrofit Preferences
When reseaching Tech - especially when captured ships are concerned - it can mater which Hyperdrive and Reactor you end up with during retrofits. In part to use Racial specialities, but also to have uniform FTL Speed and range across the fleet. I ended up with a fleet being slowed down by a ship with a "Superior" Hyperdrive one to many times. Also the Autodesigner could use those preferences.

It would be cool if there was some preference that both the auto-designer and the retrofitting of captured ships use. Component lines to consider (incomplete):
- Reactor
- Hyperdrive
- Shields
- Weapon Basetype (Blater or Railgun)
- Weapon Subtypes (Long range or high power Blaster/Railgun)
As long as the current component is better in all/most properties, it can be kept. But otherweise it should propably be replaced so the ship is more uniform (with the usuall benefit for disecting technology).

Visual Tech Advantage Indicators/More Detailed Retire Rules
In DW1 I had (unknowingly) taken over close to 100 Ship form aliens. That were just flying around in my imperium on patrol. Then I realized some of them had T2 Phaser (while I lacked even T1 ones). So I stated retiring them at a spaceport. Then I ended up recycling every captured ship whose size I could build.
My technology jumped ahead Literal. Decades. Just from a few dozen Frigates, Escorts and Destroyers.
I had decades worth of tech advantages in my empire and no idea about it!

So a indicator for "gives you tech progress if recycled" would be realy, realy helpfull.

As I see it ther are two levels of technological advantage:
- Superior Components. This is the lesser Level. If that is all it has, this ship should propably be recycled for technological progress
- Superior Hull Size. As long as the ship has that advantage, you propably want to keep it around. Even if the weapons are "only" contemporary, the bigger hull maters a lot for military power. It is more survivable and fuel efficient.

So, it would be cool if Ships could be marked for Technological Advantage:
One (the stronger) for Bigger Size then you can build. So I know to put them in my Primary assault fleet.
The other (weaker) just for having advanced technology of any kind - so I know to recycle them.
Such markers should propably only be displayed when selecting the ship directly or seeing it in the Ship Lists, not general selections.

Naturally the Automatic retiring rule should also based on that distinction, no longer combining "Ship Size or Technology" into one setting.
The distinction could also be useable in the ship list filters.
And finally the visual indication could also apply in the component list itself, to quickly tell me "that one part is superior".

If you want to be realy adventourous, you could even work this into the Technology Tree. Showing "X ships in your Empire have potential technology Bonuses to this thing".

Alternate Tech Progression from advanced Ships
Currently we get tech progression from retring ships only. And only large boost for one of the advanced techs in said ship

It would be cool if:
- just having working examples of a tech already provides a limited technology bonus. Something like 0.1% Progress per Year, per existing part (may need modification based on how inherently spamable a part is).
- Alterantively, you could roll tech progress for each part that is recycled or replaced during retrofit. This would be more granular and work better with retrofit preferences.
- Bases could also be recycled using a construction ship, to get your hands on any advanced technology they hold

Visual Turret Split
Sometimes you will only have the weight left to put in one weapon in a pair of slots, but having guns visible in both slots looks better.

Galactic Civilisations 3 had a ship designer had two option to deal with "having dual guns":
- placing two actuall weapons. Space and resources used for each one
- placing one weapon, but having the visuals mirrored
It would be if you could copy that later part. If you got paired slots with only one carrying a weapon, but could visually carry the weapon - but it still fires like you have only one component of the type.

Auto-Update and Auto-Design
In the Designer, please seperate Auto-Updating of components (T1 for T2 Crew Quarters) and Auto Designing (the Designer makes the design from scratch) seperate settings.
Just becaue I make a manual design, does not mean I do not want automatic upgrades. In fact, the situation is very much the opposite. It could even throw out clearly unessesary components (like excess Reactors or Crew Quarters), but maybe leave that as a additional subsetting (Auto-Update: Yes/No/Yes and throw out excess/Yes, but mind resurces).

Obsolete - declare retrofit target
Obsolete ships propably should know what to upgrade too.
It would be cool if when declaring ships obsolete, we could decide a existing model to retrofit all models into. Letting all remaining ship join the more important design line in due time.
With regular upgrades this is easy - target is the "next in line". But for fringe cases this would mater.

Station design
I think stations are designed like Ships - enough reactors to cover all consumers, then Solar panels to cover static use.
It would be cool if they are designed the other way around:
Enough Solar Panels to cover all uses, then enough reactors to cover static use (replacing some solar panels if nessesary). Maybe introduce a much bigger Solar Array for stations too, so they have a easier time being powered?
Stations tend to be more stationary in systems then ships, so they can get a lot more power from solar panels.

However a perculiar issue of Stations is that they might be in a Ssytem with Sun or one without. So they might run 100% from Solar Power or may have to run 100% of Reactors. But having multiple designs would be annoying as heck.
Maybe add a "Station Power Module" that can act as Solar panel and/or reactor, depending on the situation? Let's just asume the construction crew put in more Solar Arrays or Reactor space depending on how things are at the actuall deployment positon.

Combat should Produce wrecks
It is pretty odd that we can find wrecks in space, yet our combat never produces a single wreck?
It would be cool if that changes. Say if a ship has no working or no powered crew components for a while, it becomes a neutral wreck? That way even Ion Weapons and Ion Storms could kill.

External Components
According to Erik, "External" Slots currently are only there for drawing the model. With only Engines and Weapons being always external.
It would be cool if those slots actually matered. Especially for defenses. A external Slot could double the production, but also mean there is a chance for shots to damage that component without needing to go through all defenses.
Ships could looe external Ship generators, before shields are depleted. And any external components before Armor is depleted.

Spinal Slot
It would be cool if there were spinal slots. Similar to Engines, there could even be more Weapon Slots then you can effectively use.
The goal of a "Spinal" slot is to carry weapons that are 2-3 size categories to large for ship. If you look at any weapon and compare them to a ship size, there will be:
- Ships that can carry them in 360° turrets
- Ships that can carry them in 180° turrets
- Ships that can carry very few in 90° frontal mounts
- Ships that can carry 1 in 15-45° Spinal Mounts

Fleet Union Design
Whenever we design ships, we may designs them with a unified fleet design in mind. Stats we want to be similar across such a Fleet:
- Hyperdrive Speed
- STL Speed
- Total Range
- Weapon Ranges or types
- Presence or Absence of specific resources being used
It would be cool if the Designer could help with that

Boarding
It would be cool if:
- Troops would act as boarding defense. As far as I know a Invasion Transport with a dozen Infantry Units is as easy to take over as a empty one
- Boarding pods could be fired at allied ships that are being overrun, to bolster the boarding defense. Ideally automatically.
- Boarding Torpedoes. Either as a Upgrade over the pods, a Lategame Weapon or a special Racial Weapons. Large. Spamable. And full of hurt. Might barely have enough Soldiers to deal damage to components too, for balance
- Boarding Shuttles. Like torpedoes, but lower tech and requires a Hangar Slot
- there was some way to select which Species would be used for boarding pods (if that makes any differnce)

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 2/10/2022 6:48:48 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/10/2022 6:50:40 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

- Ships with cargo bays+Boarding Pods could store extra Boarding Pods in that space. If I am not planning a invasion (or got not enough troops), the remainig storage could be filled with more marines and replacement pods to quickly rearm the launcher in combat. Alternatively, maybe a way to conert stored infantry into boarding teams?
- Boarding teams could sabotage ships. Damaging or at least disabling components. Particulary Engine, FTL and Weapons. That way boarding is even a option if you can not defeat them - damaging is all you want. It would also make ships being boarded a lot easier to catch
- Ships could avoid blowing up enemies where the boarding teams are winning

Those 3 are off the lost.
- Boarding Pods are now unlimited, but have a cooldown
- boarding teams do disable components
- And the Ships are currently too carefull about shooting, forgetting to even starting firing to drop the targets shield

On the plus side. I learned that Ion Cannons can pass through low tech shields. That explains the Ion Defense I saw on the later ones.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 2/10/2022 6:54:59 AM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/10/2022 2:44:49 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
- And the Ships are currently too carefull about shooting, forgetting to even starting firing to drop the targets shield


I'm not sure what you're referring to here?

Regards,

- Erik



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(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/10/2022 3:10:20 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
- And the Ships are currently too carefull about shooting, forgetting to even starting firing to drop the targets shield


I'm not sure what you're referring to here?

Regards,

- Erik



Das had issue in his stream. BATTLEMOE confiremd he had similar ones.

Das ships are 1 Ion, 1 Railgun. On capture they do not shoot. And never deploy their pods as the shields never go down.
He has to switch to attack for them to fire and disble, then capture for them to launch, then back to attack if he wants to ion it again.

This migth jsut be faulty settings or excessive micro. But at two Streamers it seems unlikely.


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/10/2022 3:16:54 PM   
zgrssd

 

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And here is where we are talking about it, mostly in chat:
https://youtu.be/hjU_uRSF1lw?t=7181

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 2/10/2022 3:17:11 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/10/2022 3:36:44 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Thanks, will investigate.

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 11:40:26 AM   
andserk01

 

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quote:


Combat should Produce wrecks


I like all the suggestions but this one is a big one for me, it would add to the "living galaxy" they are trying to achieve too, Imagine finding derelict explorers victims of what could get you next, or debris fields of battles you saw happen, you could RP being a Teekan scavenger! haha

quote:


Boarding


I like boarding in all my games but I feel like this should be balanced more. I've seen a crew stat in the ship design menu but i'm not sure if this determines more than just defense strength and if you can lose crew.

Maybe every ship could have a slighty more detailed crew system (this would tie in also with ships becoming wrecks) and when you lose crew during space combat or boarding action the ship would start suffering the consequences of having understaffed components, eventually start losing systems to prioritize things like reactors and engines.

This crew stat could also be split into crewmen/staff members and marines, marines being there just for defense or to send them out for boarding (surviving marines would return to their ships), you would have to reinforce crew back in space stations/planets where you would have a reserve of crewmen from academies to be used in new ships or as reinforcements, maybe they could be brought to the fleet with passenger ships or the fleet could have a reserve and draw from that pool.

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 12:33:20 PM   
Cauldyth

 

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Combat does produce debris in DW2, though not complete wrecks. When ships or stations blow, they produce cargo containers, ship components, and escape pods that can contain characters that were onboard. You can then retrieve these, including capturing the characters if they were enemy ones.

(in reply to andserk01)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 12:47:58 PM   
andserk01

 

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Yeah I noticed this while watching people play DW2, it's great! Wreck would still be cool though, maybe if a ship doesn't become a wreck before reaching 0 hp and exploding then it produces debris as it does now. I'm just throwing ideas haha. I wonder how many of these ideas can be modded in.

(in reply to Cauldyth)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 1:46:12 PM   
Cauldyth

 

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I've always loved the character system in DWU, but wished they took it one step further. When a character transfers from X-to-Y, instead of it just starting a timer and the character effectively remains at X until instantly appearing at Y once the timer is up, I'd love it if it spawned a little personal transport shuttle that contained the character and travelled there. It could be a simplified ship, no design or fuel to worry about, and just traveling at the best warp speed your current technology allows. Would be a nice touch, and also make it more tense when evacuating personnel under fire since those shuttles would be vulnerable.

(in reply to andserk01)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 2:36:23 PM   
Franky007


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

I've always loved the character system in DWU, but wished they took it one step further. When a character transfers from X-to-Y, instead of it just starting a timer and the character effectively remains at X until instantly appearing at Y once the timer is up, I'd love it if it spawned a little personal transport shuttle that contained the character and travelled there. It could be a simplified ship, no design or fuel to worry about, and just traveling at the best warp speed your current technology allows. Would be a nice touch, and also make it more tense when evacuating personnel under fire since those shuttles would be vulnerable.



Gal civ 3 does that and i hate it !
It's a level of micro-management that we don't need !


(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 11
RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 4:45:42 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franky007


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

I've always loved the character system in DWU, but wished they took it one step further. When a character transfers from X-to-Y, instead of it just starting a timer and the character effectively remains at X until instantly appearing at Y once the timer is up, I'd love it if it spawned a little personal transport shuttle that contained the character and travelled there. It could be a simplified ship, no design or fuel to worry about, and just traveling at the best warp speed your current technology allows. Would be a nice touch, and also make it more tense when evacuating personnel under fire since those shuttles would be vulnerable.



Gal civ 3 does that and i hate it !
It's a level of micro-management that we don't need !




If they are completely automated there is no micromanagement to worry about.

It would certainly fit the games theme, in my opinion.


< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/17/2022 4:46:20 PM >

(in reply to Franky007)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 4:51:42 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: andserk01

quote:


Boarding


I like boarding in all my games but I feel like this should be balanced more. I've seen a crew stat in the ship design menu but i'm not sure if this determines more than just defense strength and if you can lose crew.

Maybe every ship could have a slighty more detailed crew system (this would tie in also with ships becoming wrecks) and when you lose crew during space combat or boarding action the ship would start suffering the consequences of having understaffed components, eventually start losing systems to prioritize things like reactors and engines.

This crew stat could also be split into crewmen/staff members and marines, marines being there just for defense or to send them out for boarding (surviving marines would return to their ships), you would have to reinforce crew back in space stations/planets where you would have a reserve of crewmen from academies to be used in new ships or as reinforcements, maybe they could be brought to the fleet with passenger ships or the fleet could have a reserve and draw from that pool.

As far as I understand it - as a non-beta tester that watched a lot of streams:
Crew provides Boarding defense
There is no crew loss
Boarding Pods provide extra boarding defense, but there are also advanced components like the "Star Barracks" that increase boarding defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

Combat does produce debris in DW2, though not complete wrecks. When ships or stations blow, they produce cargo containers, ship components, and escape pods that can contain characters that were onboard. You can then retrieve these, including capturing the characters if they were enemy ones.


And that is definitely a good step in the right direction.

Still, it is wierd that you can find a ship graveyard of a half dozen ships from centuries ago.
But every time we contemporaries fight, the best result is a expanding cloud of debris.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franky007


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

I've always loved the character system in DWU, but wished they took it one step further. When a character transfers from X-to-Y, instead of it just starting a timer and the character effectively remains at X until instantly appearing at Y once the timer is up, I'd love it if it spawned a little personal transport shuttle that contained the character and travelled there. It could be a simplified ship, no design or fuel to worry about, and just traveling at the best warp speed your current technology allows. Would be a nice touch, and also make it more tense when evacuating personnel under fire since those shuttles would be vulnerable.



Gal civ 3 does that and i hate it !
It's a level of micro-management that we don't need !



While generally the game simulating stuff is a good thing, I too would avoid "simulating character travel".
Some things simply work better with abstraction.

Such a system would make the leader insanely vulnerable. So much so, it would be preferable to micro the transfer via combathsips. Which is just a PITA.

(in reply to andserk01)
Post #: 13
RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/17/2022 10:23:59 PM   
Cauldyth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franky007


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

I've always loved the character system in DWU, but wished they took it one step further. When a character transfers from X-to-Y, instead of it just starting a timer and the character effectively remains at X until instantly appearing at Y once the timer is up, I'd love it if it spawned a little personal transport shuttle that contained the character and travelled there. It could be a simplified ship, no design or fuel to worry about, and just traveling at the best warp speed your current technology allows. Would be a nice touch, and also make it more tense when evacuating personnel under fire since those shuttles would be vulnerable.



Gal civ 3 does that and i hate it !
It's a level of micro-management that we don't need !




I'm not imagining any real need for the player to handle anything, so shouldn't require any micro-management. It'd just be more of a way of adding to the existing feeling of a living universe.

(in reply to Franky007)
Post #: 14
RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/18/2022 12:37:07 AM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franky007


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

I've always loved the character system in DWU, but wished they took it one step further. When a character transfers from X-to-Y, instead of it just starting a timer and the character effectively remains at X until instantly appearing at Y once the timer is up, I'd love it if it spawned a little personal transport shuttle that contained the character and travelled there. It could be a simplified ship, no design or fuel to worry about, and just traveling at the best warp speed your current technology allows. Would be a nice touch, and also make it more tense when evacuating personnel under fire since those shuttles would be vulnerable.



Gal civ 3 does that and i hate it !
It's a level of micro-management that we don't need !




I'm not imagining any real need for the player to handle anything, so shouldn't require any micro-management. It'd just be more of a way of adding to the existing feeling of a living universe.


Yeah, but you wouldn't really just put your super-top-tier "been doing this for decades" ace character in an unprotected boat that could get eaten by a hostile escort and then expect that character to actually get to the other side of your part of space, would you? You'd need to manually put fleet forces around that boat to ensure that no such thing can occur.

And that would be a hassle. Having to play "AI escort mission" whenever a character moves around because they insist on picking the most ridiculous and vulnerable way of getting from A to B is not something I enjoy a whole lot.

(in reply to Cauldyth)
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RE: It would be cool if - Ship Design(s/er), Wrecks, Bo... - 2/18/2022 1:07:04 AM   
Cauldyth

 

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Yeah, fair enough. It won't get implemented anyway.

(in reply to Spidey)
Post #: 16
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