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Some Tips and Guidelines from a Veteran Player

 
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Some Tips and Guidelines from a Veteran Player - 7/24/2001 8:47:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline 		As a result of over 5 years and several thousand games with the Steel Panthers series, I've evolved a set of tactical tips and guidelines. Basic Sequence of Activities 1st -- Sequentially Rally Selected Units. I play with Auto-Rally turned ON which means that all units capable of doing so will automatically attempt to rally at the end of my turn. This means that I don't have to spend time rallying units that do not demand my personal attention. This saves time and energy that can be used elsewhere. I am very sparing with my rally attempts. I do not attempt to rally a unit unless I have a definite mission for that unit that turn. Also, I usually rally units sequentially within one formation at a time. This means that I rally the unit with the highest supression first. When a unit no longer has the highest supression, then I rally the next unit with the highest supression, and so on. In addition, I usually only make a single rally attempt per unit. That is, I generally do not rally a unit two, three, or more times in succession. The reason is because multiple rally attempts of an individual unit in succession can result in inefficiencies in command control where the formation commander can lose his rally status for the turn when other units in the formation might need his help. I've found that it is most efficient to make a single rally attempt per unit and rotate the rally attempts sequentially within a formation using the guidelines I mentioned above. TIP1: If you don't have a clear mission in mind, then it is best not to rally a unit until such time as a mission presents itself. TIP2: Be thrifty and miserly with your rally attempts--wasting rally atempts early in a turn can cause big problems later that turn when you might really need them. Only rally when you feel a real need to. 2nd -- Check Lines of Sight for Hidden Enemy Units. Immediately after I conduct whatever rallying I'm going to do at the start of the turn I then check the lines of sight of my recon elements by selecting each unit in turn and right-clicking in various directions. It is often possible to spot many previously-hidden enemy units this way without having to move or fire. TIP: Checking for hidden enemy units before moving or firing minimizes your casualties. 3rd -- Set Firing Ranges. Opportunity fire in the previous turn may have changed the ranges of many of your units. It is prudent to check and set your firing ranges at this time before the heat of battle begins in your current turn. 4th -- Fight And/Or Move. It is usually better to fire before moving because your hit percentages are almost always higher. I try to resolve as many firefights as I can before I move any units. Sometimes I will move some of my recon units prior to resolving firefights, but only if I feel a pressing need to do so. Some of the following tips seem contradictory. Your skill and experience and judgment must be relied on to resolve such situations. TIP1: When multiple targets are available, it is usually best to fire with the unit that is safest from enemy return fire (I almost never fire on an enemy unit if I have reason to believe that I will take multiple enemy return shots). TIP2: It is usually best to concentrate your fire on neutralizing one enemy unit at a time before engaging the next enemy unit (this will minimize your casualties in the long run, guaranteed). TIP3: When firing on a new enemy unit, it is usually best to take your best shot first (can occasionally conflict with TIP1 above--use your best judgment in this case). TIP4: It is usually best to conserve shots (saving shots minimizes breakdowns and allows for unexpected events later that turn). TIP5: Knowing when NOT to fire is usually as valuable a skill as knowing when to fire (this is one of the most important skills you can learn in the game and I cannot overemphasize its importance). 5th -- Reset Firing Ranges. After you've performed all your moving and firing for that turn, then it is best to reset your firing ranges in preparation for the upcoming enemy turn (and the opportunity fire that comes with it). 6th -- Set Artillery. It is ALWAYS (100% of the time) best to set your artillery at the very end of your turn because you then have the best information available to make the wisest bombardment choices (you lose precious orders when you set artillery earlier in the turn only to cancel those orders later that same turn). 7th -- Save Game and End Turn. I always save the game right before the end of my turn because I often have computer problems and I hate having to have to replay entire turns that I've already finished. If you have faith that your machine will never crash and that you will never lose a turn (or turns) because of that, then you can ignore this step. Happy Gaming :) Victor

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- 7/24/2001 11:09:00 AM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		Good tips to go by! Mind if I can post these on the SP Arsenal Page August Edition, as well as any more you may have :D Let me know - email me when you can..

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Post #: 2
- 7/24/2001 11:44:00 AM   
Lynx

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/9/2001
From: Vancouver
Status: offline 		Solid tips. Good one. Lynx

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- 7/24/2001 9:03:00 PM   
WW2'er

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 4/20/2000
From: East Dundee, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Great Tips Victorhauser! Thanks. If you're smart folks, you'll listen to these tips and put them into action. Salute! WW2'er

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"That [state] which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." — Thucydides, 'The Peloponnesian Wars'

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Post #: 4
- 7/25/2001 12:17:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline 		Bryan: Feel free to post these however you wish. I'm considering putting together a list of tactical doctrines if there is an interest in them. But since that will involve a lot of effort, I probably won't do them if the interest level is low.

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- 7/25/2001 12:36:00 AM   
Cona

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 9/9/2000
From: Penco, Chile
Status: offline 		8th: Cycle your units using the "P"revious key and not the "N"ext key. This way you will move/fire/rally your precious command (x0) units last keeping your command points and extra rally option for when you really need it. Saludos a Todos, Cona.

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Post #: 6
- 7/25/2001 4:20:00 AM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		I found your post very interesting, thank you, Victorhauser. I for one would be very interested in a tactical doctrine guide and hope that many more will join me in encouraging you to publish one.

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Fabs

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- 7/25/2001 8:48:00 AM   
Lynx

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/9/2001
From: Vancouver
Status: offline 		could always use tips Would be muchly appreciated Lynx

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Post #: 8
- 7/25/2001 9:36:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Cona: I'm not too sure about this, but there are instances where rallying the command first is the better thing to do. Should you rally the command last, if it is heavily suppressed I don't think it has much ability to rally other units, so it's getting rallied is important in those rare situations. I believe it also doesn't receive extra orders the next turn if it's not in very good shape. Another thing about that situation, if the other units are rallied first they may fail their rally, thereby eliminating their potential for rallying the command, as all the units would have a chance if the command were the first to try. It really all depends on which units are doing the most fighting and which ones are most suppressed, as to where you start rallying. That might sound like a good idea, but I rarely do it. I split my time, with some turns using the 'n' and some using the 'p', so it kind of averages out accidently.

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- 7/25/2001 3:34:00 PM   
Marder_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 12/15/2000
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Good, interesting tips! One tip left: Don´t slam your computer if your infantery attack is hit in the open by katjusha fire and you lost half of your tanks because they were blown up by mines. (stalingrad campaign) Moreover your computer isn´t responsible that numerous of 37mm AA guns smash your core force into pieces! (stalingrad campaign) :mad: Marder

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Post #: 10
- 7/25/2001 10:11:00 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline 		victorhauser-Great tips. Also, remember to slow down and do not send you AFV's speeding ahead.

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Post #: 11
RE: Some Tips and Guidelines from a Veteran Player - 7/20/2007 8:06:08 AM   
StephanFH


Posts: 101
Joined: 5/25/2007
From: West Chester, PA USA
Status: offline 		victorhauser: lots of good tips in there, thanks

parusski: I agree entirely, speed kills as someone on here said.

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Post #: 12
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 1:36:09 AM   
DROregon


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		Victor: You state you rally units in order of highest supression. And only one rally attempt per unit. And I think you say you rally units before the command unit.

Charles: You question these tactics, stating you should rally command units first.

Open question: Is there a correct answer here?

I always rally top to bottom: A0 on down (using "N" to scroll thru units). This will rally command units first. I also rally as many times as I can to reduce all suppressions before any fire/move. I also continue to rally any unit that takes any enemy fire / suppression. I feel suppression on my units is bad, I reduce whenever I can.

I wish there was a Preference to Auto-Rally at the beginning of the turn, as well as the end of turn.


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Post #: 13
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 2:48:28 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		Rallying the command units first can lead to less effective rallying overall: if the command unit fails, the subordinate units will only be able to rely on their own organic leaders to rally; they lose the "chain-of-command" rally advantage.

While I agree that removing as much suppression as possible is a good thing, cycling through each member of the formation and making one rally each maximizes the formation's rally action. It helps get the whole formation back in good status, instead of risking some of the units staying Routed or Retreating because of a failed roll.

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RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 3:38:24 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		DROregon,

Remember that I posted that 6 years ago (the original post date is 24 Jul 2001).  Charles-22 is no longer active on this forum. 

The truth is that I was a better player then than I am now.  My focus and concentration was much stronger then.  These days I often forget to follow my own advice.  I still think that the advice is sound, though.  Also, these days I play with Auto Rally OFF, which makes rally choices even more important.

EDIT: Also, I play very deliberately and purposefully. It is not uncommon for me to spend an hour or two at the start of every turn just looking over the situation and determining what I'm going to do (I prefer big battles with hundreds of units). Sometimes I even sleep on it. Then, after much deliberation, I determine what unit I'll select and what actions I'll perform. I try not to select any unit until I'm certain what I'm going to do. I try to look into the future to see how events are going to unfold. Visualization of the future course of events is a big part of how I play. The better I am at visualizing and predicting the way the course of events is going to play out, then better my results during that turn (and future turns) will turn out. This requires great focus and concentration, something I lose a little more each year.

< Message edited by vahauser -- 8/6/2007 3:52:23 AM >

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RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 3:50:23 AM   
DROregon


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		Flash, I don't understand.

You must be saying a rally-failed command unit is less effective to it's subordinate units than an un-attempted rally command unit, even when they have the same supression level. Makes sense, I guess.

But seems to me that the opportunity to reduce a command unit's supression in half is always worth pushing the button.

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Post #: 16
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 3:58:24 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		DROregon,

Rallying is often like firing.  It is often as important (or even more important) to learn when NOT to fire (or rally).

If you expend your rally attempts at the start of a turn (especially in a big battle involving hundreds of units which is the kind of game I prefer), then later in the turn when an emergency arises you might no longer be able to rally at all due to failed rally attempts earlier in the turn.

Further, rallying from 4 to 2 is usually a waste.  You only gain a percentage point or two in improved chances to hit.  Whereas rallying from 18 to 9 is much more valuable since that will usually result in changing from Pinned or Retreating to Ready.  Choose your rally attempts wisely and you will greatly improve your battlegroup's overall effectiveness.

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Post #: 17
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 4:03:17 AM   
DROregon


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		Thanks, Victor, I'm getting it.

Yes, I see the 18 to 9 vs. 4 to 2 advantage. (That's why you said in 2001 you start at the highest suppression unit).

Question: Is a rally at suppression level 4 more likely to occur than a rally at 18?

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Post #: 18
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 4:15:35 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		DROregon,

There are cases where I will indeed attempt to rally from a 4 to a 2, or from a 6 to a 3.  For instance, if I am in a firefight and I get a unit shot at giving it a few points of suppression that takes away its last shot.  If I succeed at the rally (say from 6 to 3), then I might get 1 shot back which might make all the difference.  But if I have wasted those rally attempts earlier in the turn, then I don't have that option, which could result in not only losing that firefight, but also allow the enemy to take advantage of the situation the following turn.


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Post #: 19
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 4:25:43 AM   
DROregon


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		What I want to understand is if there is a predefined number of rally attempts.  You talk about "wasted attempts".  I don't understand this.

I do understand if a rally fails, you're stuck.  It won't rally that turn (I think) and it impacts the sub-units as a fail.

Still, seems to me, (as a trained statistican) if the expected likehood of supression improvement is noteworthy, go for it.

Example:  If at 18, and likelihood is 9.5, then go for it.
If at 4, and likelihood is 3.8, then maybe not.

I understand your scenario of getting that one last shot that may turn the tide.

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Post #: 20
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 4:48:04 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Somewhere in the manual it talks about rally points. The highest rank has only so many points to pass down the chain of command. Each time you rally a unit, it takes away from that pool. IIRC when that pool runs out you lose the secondary rally attempt that you sometimes see when a rally fails.

For that reason I use rally with great reserve. I usually only try to get below 8 supp. when a unit is adjacent to armour and can assault.

Each rally cuts suppression in half.

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Post #: 21
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 5:37:49 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		DROregon,

A unit can never have a suppression higher than 99.  The rally sequence is: 99 to 49 to 24 to 12 to 6 to 3 to 1.  At most 6 rallies to remove all suppression from any unit.  Each rally attempt costs the rallying unit (or HQ if the rallying unit fails) 2 rally points.  Each rally point equals 1% chance to rally.  So, if I have a unit that has a rally rating of 67, then that unit has a 67% chance to rally with its first attempt.  If it succeeds, then its remaining rally rating that turn is now 65.  If it fails, its rally rating is reduced to 0 for the rest of that turn.  Rally ratings are reset at the start of each turn.

Clearly, you gain the most (in terms of risk vs. reward) when attempting to rally from high suppression.  That is, I can remove 50 points of suppression by attempting to rally from 99 to 49 for a cost of 2 rally points.  Attempting to rally from 3 to 1 is high risk with little reward.

Rallying is like trading in commodities futures.  You must anticipate future events.  That is where skill and experience and judgment come in.  There is no statistical formula that will predict an uncertain future (how the events of any given turn will unfold).  And there are cases where you simply have to throw away the odds and take your best shot, such as in a do-or-die emergency.

But you can at least put those odds in your favor to the best of your ability by making only those rally attempts that give you the best reward for your risk, until such time as an emergency happens (at which point you throw away the odds and take your best shot).  Saving for a rainy day, in other words.

I would not (and indeed I don't) rely too much on statistics.  Game experience and judgment is a better guide.  Becoming a player with a good feel for the game and the ability to anticipate and visualize how the events of a turn are going to unfold is a more valuable skill. 

Don't misunderstand me.  I am definitely aware of the odds and the concept of risk vs. reward in regards to rally attempts (which I why I posted what I did 6 years ago).  All I'm saying is that while I'm aware of the statistics, I don't let them dominate my experience and judgment and ability to visualize a turn, which is more valuable to me. 



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Post #: 22
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 8:21:12 AM   
DROregon


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		Thanks again Victor. I see now how rally chances can be wasted.

I see them now as more like Options (vs. commodities or futures). The chance to rally has value before you use it. If you exercise and it fails, it's worthless. If you exercise and it wins, you improve suppression but reduce your chance to win again. If you exercise now at a low suppression, you may lose the opportunity to exercise in the future at a higher suppression.

I'd say however, like in the money Options, exercise them all at the end of the turn. So, Auto-Rally On.

I always learn something new about this wonderful game by following along on this website.

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Post #: 23
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 1:54:01 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		DROregon,

I've played with Auto Rally ON for many years.  However, as pointed out in the "Rigging the Game" thread, playing with Auto Rally ON gives the human player an advantage against the computer.  So recently I've been playing with Auto Rally OFF.

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Post #: 24
RE: Rally Troops - 8/6/2007 5:53:37 PM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DROregon

Flash, I don't understand.

You must be saying a rally-failed command unit is less effective to it's subordinate units than an un-attempted rally command unit, even when they have the same supression level. Makes sense, I guess.

But seems to me that the opportunity to reduce a command unit's supression in half is always worth pushing the button.


No, that's not what I was referring to. A failed Rally command unit is incapable of assisting its subordinate units when THEY fail. But a Suppressed command unit in Retreat/Rout status cannot assist in the rallying of sub-units anyhow, so it is just as ineffective as if it had failed its own rally attempt.

What I usually do is make the one attempt to bring a command unit to Pinned status; if it succeeds, I stop rallying the command unit. Then I run through the sub-units, making their checks one at a time, from unit to unit; in this way, the unit leader has the best chance (re: Victor's explanation of the Rally points and chances) to get that first critical "halving" of the Suppression. Then I cycle back through the units, making attempts for those with the worst Suppression; some units I will leave with <15 Suppression, in Pinned status, to focus on the ones that are in worse shape. During this procedure, if any unit fails its own check, the command unit is able to assist. If the command unit fails, then I go ahead and make all the checks I can for the rest of the subs, since failing will not access the command assist. In cases where I have a second command unit in the chain (company HQ or A0 nearby), I follow the same basic procedure, and see if the higher command assists once the immediate commander fails.

On the AutoRally ON/OFF issue: the AutoRally is a "nanny", performing rally actions at the end of the turn that you, the player, "forgot to make". In some ways, this is good, as it covers all units, and makes all checks possible, even those Ready units with 2 or 4 Suppression that otherwise you would ignore for Rallying. However....

This can be bad, in the case of units that are Retreating/Routed and are in danger of being fired on. They could become Pinned or Ready, in LOS/LOF to the enemy, and during HIS turn come under heavy fire. If they had been allowed to retreat, they may have moved out of LOS/LOF and become unspotted. With AutoRally ON, you the player cannot choose to let them retreat; if you do not manually rally them during your turn, the AutoRally does it for you, and if it succeeds in any attempt, the unit will probably stop where it is as Pinned. Only of the first AutoRally attempt fails will the unit conduct a retreat movement. This is because the Retreat action phase comes after the AutoRally phase.

But there are times when it would be better to allow a unit to retreat the two hexes to a safer position: units that have been under fire during your opponent's turn, and begin your turn in Routed/Retreating status. The dilemma is: do I try and rally them and then use the normal Movement action to move away from the "fire zone", possibly 1)failing the rally and remaining Pinned in the hex for next turn, or 2)succeeding only to trigger OpFire when attempting to move to cover. The safe solution: allow the unit to Retreat, so as to put distance between the enemy and itself, during the Retreat Phase when OpFire does not usually occur. But AutoRally ON prevents this, as the "nanny" come along and makes those Rally attempts for you.

Turning AutoRally OFF at times (it can be switched on and off during the game, even PBEM games) can help save units that otherwise might be in trouble during the opponent's turn.

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Post #: 25
RE: Rally Troops - 8/7/2007 7:28:07 AM   
DROregon


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		Thanks Kevin.

Another education on the +/- of Rally.

I can see now how Auto Rally can have its downside.

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Post #: 26
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