The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer

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The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/6/2004 12:12:49 PM

Jane Doe

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I'm sure many of you have already read that book, but i've just finished reading it in 2 days (541 pages)... and I just can't recommend it strong enough to anyone of you who didn't. That book is a treisure!

5 stars on 5. 100%. I'll go buy two copies, one to re-read and the other one to put in a safe!

This is the story of a kid (16) who happens to live in Wissembourg in Alsace and have a german mother and a french father. When Germany invades France in 40, Alsace is annexed by Germany, then from a youth camp in Strasbourg to one in Kehl. He then joins the Wehrmacht...

"Far too many books about war are written from the vantage point of the officer/commander/historian. How many times have you heard 'The battalion took the enemy positions in heavy fighting' or something similar and thought 'yeah but what was it LIKE!'
In this book you won't hear anything like those distant viewpoints. First person perspective of battles, the chaos, terror, artillery barages, being attacked by planes and massed attacks by the Red Army. Sajer tells of the lice, the misery, the horrendous winters, frostbite, even when he suffers from dysentry. The death of his friends, the madness of combat, those who go insane and the heroism of others. He is no hero himself just a terrified young man trying desperately to survive" Paul J

"Our John Wayne view of WW2 and the world is fast falling by the wayside." Herr Staub

_____________________________

Ainsi dans le courage et ainsi dans la peur, ainsi dans la mis�re et ainsi dans l'horreur.

"first you need a tear, just a tear of gin......and then a river of tonic"

Post #: 1

RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/6/2004 3:02:08 PM

Pawlock

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Yes this is an awesome read, although many would argue its authenticity. If you like this, you should read a book on similar lines like " In deadly combat" by Gottlob Herman Biderman and his experinces on the Eastern Front in an ordinary inf division.

(in reply to Jane Doe)

Post #: 2

RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/6/2004 6:51:42 PM

Paul Wykes

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Hi,

I`ve recently read this book, and found it fascinating.

Pawlock, I`m interested about why you question its authenticity? Just curious.

PW

(in reply to Pawlock)

Post #: 3

RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/6/2004 7:35:22 PM

riverbravo

Posts: 1320
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From: Bay St Louis Ms.
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Excellent,Im always up for first person accounts no matter who or what they fought for.

Check out Donald R Burgetts books.He has 3 books out on his experiences as a American paratrooper with the 101st Airborne 506 Reg A company.All first person and good,The titles are,I cant remember the third book,but its about the advance into Germany and the action there.The first book is France the second Holland and then Germany...good stuff.

Curahee
Road to Arnhem

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I laugh at hurricanes!

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/7/2004 12:55:26 AM

Pawlock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Wykes

Hi,

I`ve recently read this book, and found it fascinating.

Pawlock, I`m interested about why you question its authenticity? Just curious.

PW

I personally have no reason to doubt its authenticity, but its quite a popular read and I\have read in other places of others who claim it is just some clever use of fiction.

(in reply to Paul Wykes)

Post #: 5

RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/7/2004 2:25:40 AM

Hertston

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It's authenticity or otherwise has actually been pretty heavily debated in academic, military and indeed literary circles. There were assorted "problems" not least of which was that there was no record of "Guy Sajer" (or his birthname, which was something else) ever having served with the Grossdeutchland, and nobody who had who remembered him. Lots of historical inaccuracies too, not to mention incorrect style, use of language being wrong for the period, etc.

On the flip-side, others came up with plausible explanations for most of these, and I don't think a consensus was ever realy reached. Everyone was agreed it was an excellent read either way, and was a very good portrayal of life on the Eastern Front. Personally, I think it's largely fictional.. I'm no expert on the things academics bring up, but to me it just doesn't feel quite right. I am concious though that I've only read it in translation, so that's another big factor to consider.

(in reply to Pawlock)

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/7/2004 3:00:01 AM

Jane Doe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

It's authenticity or otherwise has actually been pretty heavily debated in academic, military and indeed literary circles. There were assorted "problems" not least of which was that there was no record of "Guy Sajer" (or his birthname, which was something else) ever having served with the Grossdeutchland, and nobody who had who remembered him. Lots of historical inaccuracies too, not to mention incorrect style, use of language being wrong for the period, etc.

On the flip-side, others came up with plausible explanations for most of these, and I don't think a consensus was ever realy reached. Everyone was agreed it was an excellent read either way, and was a very good portrayal of life on the Eastern Front. Personally, I think it's largely fictional.. I'm no expert on the things academics bring up, but to me it just doesn't feel quite right. I am concious though that I've only read it in translation, so that's another big factor to consider.

here's a link on the debate
http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm

I read the original 1967 french edition
IMO, i think to the contrary, that the book depicts what really happened to him.
he was no lieutnant or hauptmann, just a simple gerfreiter of 17 years old after all.
And one of the reason i liked it is that it was not written by or for historians.

< Message edited by Jane Doe -- 2/7/2004 1:45:54 AM >

_____________________________

Ainsi dans le courage et ainsi dans la peur, ainsi dans la mis�re et ainsi dans l'horreur.

"first you need a tear, just a tear of gin......and then a river of tonic"

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 7

RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/7/2004 3:33:46 AM

Reiryc

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Here's a good site that discusses the issue pretty well....

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/8/2004 7:53:48 PM

Mike C

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I can't tell you whether the book was true, half-true, or a flat out lie, but it was a hell of a read. Very powerful and painted a pretty bleak picture for life on the Eastern Front.

I think the bottom line would be the same regardless of level of truth. If you catch my meaning.

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Live by the sword, die with your boots on

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/8/2004 11:51:53 PM

degen

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My impression of the book--if it is authentic--is that Sajer was a confused but lucky grunt. However, I thought hiis writings on various battles were fairly vague and that someone who survived those conflicts could have provided more specific details. The romance he had also seem out of place for this story, much like the romance in the movie Enemy at the Gates. Those two problems were what raised doubts in my mind.

With that said, I did enjoy the books for similar reasons as Jane Doe, as I get tired of reading the accounts of where this corps went, the enemy units it encounted, etc. Those officer accounts can get monotonous after 200 pages or so. The individual viewpoints of soldiers tend to be more gripping.

Anyway, my two cents worth...

_____________________________

"I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

(in reply to Mike C)

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/9/2004 4:07:28 AM

Jane Doe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: degen

My impression of the book--if it is authentic--is that Sajer was a confused but lucky grunt. However, I thought hiis writings on various battles were fairly vague and that someone who survived those conflicts could have provided more specific details. The romance he had also seem out of place for this story, much like the romance in the movie Enemy at the Gates. Those two problems were what raised doubts in my mind.

With that said, I did enjoy the books for similar reasons as Jane Doe, as I get tired of reading the accounts of where this corps went, the enemy units it encounted, etc. Those officer accounts can get monotonous after 200 pages or so. The individual viewpoints of soldiers tend to be more gripping.

Anyway, my two cents worth...

In fact, one thing that made me think it was authentic was the way it was written. I don't know about the english version, but my guess is that the quality of the language used in the english translation would not reflect the "poor" quality of the writing found in the original french version. I mean, rarely one sentence would get longer than one line... and this is REALLY rare in french. This is not what i would call a professional writing compared to others' work of the kind of Romain Gary (�mile Ajar) or even other less blessed writers. What I try to say is that his book, even if it's a blast to read, is a sketchy reading from start to finish.

And I think Kennedy Jr (in the debate - the other one too i think) doesn't even understand french.

And anyway, what would it be like if he was to being less vague about details... :

"And then we heard the sound of the high-pitched sound of a russian 120mm mortar round falling on our position, that when blasting, creates craters 5,5 meters wide and 2,7 meters deep and projects (do the math here) cubic meters of ground 14,4 meters into the air. They were made in the newly russian-liberated kharkov's Ivanovskaya Kharkoyivskiyi petardovskaya factory. So with 1.24 seconds time of reaction, we all jumped into our freshly-dug individual hole that were "approximately" 22cm deep, with a width of 74 by a lenght of 126cm, which means that I had to lay on my shoulders in a foetal position looking at my camo pants that was a combination of dark-olive, moon-black and humus-brown, though my pants zipper's color was gold instead of silver, the true sign of an elite formation in the werhmacht of 43! ... blah blah blah

Palpitant n'est-ce pas ?

PS Je divague.

PPS I'm realising just how bad my english really is when i want to make up stories trying to use figures of speech like irony, and such, so when i look at it, it doesn't even sound like what i had in mind... so please, if you don't find this funny, at least keep in mind that what I had in mind was indeed funny or even funnier.

_____________________________

Ainsi dans le courage et ainsi dans la peur, ainsi dans la mis�re et ainsi dans l'horreur.

"first you need a tear, just a tear of gin......and then a river of tonic"

(in reply to degen)

Post #: 11

RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/9/2004 5:05:46 AM

mariovalleemtl

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I also read it (in french). Great book.

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/9/2004 7:32:04 AM

degen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jane Doe

And anyway, what would it be like if he was to being less vague about details... :

"And then we heard the sound of the high-pitched sound of a russian 120mm mortar round falling on our position, that when blasting, creates craters 5,5 meters wide and 2,7 meters deep and projects (do the math here) cubic meters of ground 14,4 meters into the air. They were made in the newly russian-liberated kharkov's Ivanovskaya Kharkoyivskiyi petardovskaya factory. So with 1.24 seconds time of reaction, we all jumped into our freshly-dug individual hole that were "approximately" 22cm deep, with a width of 74 by a lenght of 126cm, which means that I had to lay on my shoulders in a foetal position looking at my camo pants that was a combination of dark-olive, moon-black and humus-brown, though my pants zipper's color was gold instead of silver, the true sign of an elite formation in the werhmacht of 43! ... blah blah blah

Jane Doe, my comment about vagueness was referring to Sajer's lack of details on battle situations rather than the technical aspects of weaponary or uniforms. Sajer was in many different places, but other than his time home and the battles in Prussia, he never offered more than a few vague references of the battles he fought in. As a reader, I found myself guessing the locations and the dates of the events in the book. Again, I am not saying that I did not enjoy the book, but more specifics would have helped the credibility.

_____________________________

"I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

(in reply to Jane Doe)

Post #: 13

RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/10/2004 5:04:36 AM

Golf33

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If you want to see how an individual memoir can provide the same insights as Sajer while also providing a wealth of detail on the wider situation, read George G. Blackburn's "The Guns of War" ( a compilation that includes two titles originally published separately, "The Guns of Normandy" and "The Guns of Victory" ). Blackburn was a junior artillery officer in 4th Canadian Field Regiment and served extensively in NW Europe both on the gunline and as a Forward Obervation Officer ( and eventually as the "3iC of the Regiment" - read the book to find out what this is). As such he provides a fantastic insight into both life with a gun regiment, firing in support of the line troops, and life and combat in an infantry unit where he spent most of his time as an FOO.

I found the book very well-written and quite compelling. It has quite a unique style that some find hard to get into but others like me find just gripping. As a former artilleryman, I also found it fascinating how little has changed in our procedures since the dark days of 1944/45. Compared to Sajer, Blackburn comes across as far more definitive since he provides a wealth of detail that could actually be checked, as opposed to a series of highly emotive vignettes with little specific content. That's not to say I didn't enjoy Sajer as well ( in English ), but it certainly comes across as much closer to 'historical novel' than 'battle memoir' to me.

Blackburn's books are currently published separately by McClelland and Stewart Books.

Regards
33

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Steve Golf33 Long

(in reply to degen)

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/11/2004 10:20:08 PM

ShermanM4

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Hey all,
I have never read Guy Sajer's Forgotten Soldier. Some of you are pointing out other books and what qualities it possesses to make it credible. I have read Donald Burgetts series, as one of you mentioned you had also. In the first book he claims after landing in Normandy, he witnessed an 88mm gun and some friendly tank support. He says that freindly tank was a Grant/Lee. There is one major problem with this statement, there were no Grant/Lee's in Normandy. All of your descriptions of Sajer's book make me want to read it all the more. It is quite possible that Sajer is a penname for one or more men that were actually there. Also, veterans make mistakes all the time they are only human; no one is doubting that Burgett was there.

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"Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages."

~General George Washington

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RE: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer - 2/12/2004 10:20:03 PM

Paul Wykes

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I just wanted to add, like other people have said, that whilst there is debate on whether the account if a work of fiction or an actual accout, it is still a very good read, giving an interesting insight in the conflict on the eatstern front.

(in reply to ShermanM4)

Post #: 16