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RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions

 
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RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/17/2004 11:36:33 PM   
Rune Iversen


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From: Copenhagen. Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

In my opinion quite realistic. I'm sure that in rl situation a smart FO would relay coordinates and then wait for the best possible time to actually call the fire.
How realistic is arty delay that has an increment of one turn? anyways, MBT doesn't really interest me so they can have whatever arty delays they want.


Voriax


You mean the shells just hang in the air waiting for the FO to instantanously release them? Sorry Bob, doesn´t work that way. Never has never will....

_____________________________

Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

(in reply to Voriax)
Post #: 61
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/17/2004 11:56:44 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		COPIED THIS FROM ANOTHER THREAD< DID NOT WANT IT TO GET OVERLOOKED

* The ANZAC Crewmen still has the Misc Small Arms in slot 1.

* Italy: Weapon #222 and 224 ("8mm (2) BMG/TMG") have a Pen AP value of 1. These are the MG's on M11/39 and M13/40. They appear in the OOBs of multiple countries and is even "corrected" (i.e. Pen AP set to zero) in some of the countries, but not Italy itself for some reason.

(Why would you want a Pen AP value of only 1 when a rifle is enough to destroy unarmored jeeps and trucks ? )


* Belgium: Weapon #184 ("30 Browning FN") has a Pen AP value of 1 (same reason as above.


* Communist China: Weapon #227 ("7.5cm Krupp M08") has a Pen HE value of zero and a warhead size of 1. This is the weapon used on a howitzer (Unit #44).

Tested in the game-- the howitzer bombards with small arms fire!

(The weapon with the same name in the Nationalist China OOB is actually a medium gun with a Pen HE value, though.)


* Nationalist China: Weapon #122 ("7.92 mm Type 26") has a Pen AP value of 7 and a Pen HE value of 6. This one was used on an HMG Squad (unit #35). I thought all MG's smaller than .50 cal/12.7mm (except the ones on aircrafts) were supposed to have 0 Pen, but this one clearly wasn't fixed.


* Finland: Weapon #157 ("7.92mm MG37 CMG") has a Pen AP value of 8 and a Pen HE value of 6.


* France: Weapon #176 ("7.92mm MG64 TMG") has a Pen AP value of 2. Weapon #177 ("30 cal CMG") has a Pen AP value of 7 and a Pen HE value of 5. Weapon #142 ("Twin 7.5mm TMG") and Weapon #112 ("7.5mm FM24/29x2") both have a Pen HE value of 1.


* Free France: Weapon #111 (the same weapon as France #112) also has a Pen HE value of 1.


* Nationalist Spain: Weapon #148 (".303 Bren AAMG") has a Pen AP value of 3 and a Pen HE value of 2. (Fixed in Republican Spain.)

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Post #: 62
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 12:16:42 AM   
Voriax

 

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Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen


You mean the shells just hang in the air waiting for the FO to instantanously release them? Sorry Bob, doesn´t work that way. Never has never will....


Huh? Isn't it standard practise first tell to where to shoot. Then the battery waits until FO gives an order to actually fire? As the FO (at least if he is really a trained FO, not just some platoon leader) he has at least a reasonably accurate knowledge of flight times? Thus he can delay the actual firing command _if_ he sees a better firing opportunity, like another enemy unit entering the target area, or until infantry raises from trenches/foxholes and starts to advance? Of course the target designation and fire order are often combined, but afaik the possibility to give them separately exists.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 63
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 12:21:18 AM   
hogg


Posts: 30
Joined: 2/10/2004
From: Yorkshire. 'Nuff said!
Status: offline 		Which is where the pre-plotted barrage hexes come in - the number you get depend on your armies nationality.


What data do we have on historical times for 'see target - shells land' delay?

(in reply to Voriax)
Post #: 64
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 12:30:24 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hogg

What data do we have on historical times for 'see target - shells land' delay?


Well, in Finnish arty the time from FO giving a target to the first shot to be fired was 5-8 minutes if the battery wasn't already firing. If it was and the target was close to the previous target the time was reduced to 2-5 minutes. Depends if the whole carriage had to be turned or not.
Add flight times to that..but then you'd need to know if the firing unit is 5 or 15km away.
Not mentioning the muzzle velocities, flightpath shape...

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to hogg)
Post #: 65
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 1:53:54 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		When the site went down, did you lose all of the suggestions or corrections to the OOB that had been posted? I need to know if I should resubmit my findings or were you able to save the info prior to the crash. Thanks.

Recon
Semper Fi

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Post #: 66
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 2:42:52 AM   
Rune Iversen


Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen


You mean the shells just hang in the air waiting for the FO to instantanously release them? Sorry Bob, doesn´t work that way. Never has never will....


Huh? Isn't it standard practise first tell to where to shoot. Then the battery waits until FO gives an order to actually fire? As the FO (at least if he is really a trained FO, not just some platoon leader) he has at least a reasonably accurate knowledge of flight times? Thus he can delay the actual firing command _if_ he sees a better firing opportunity, like another enemy unit entering the target area, or until infantry raises from trenches/foxholes and starts to advance? Of course the target designation and fire order are often combined, but afaik the possibility to give them separately exists.

Voriax


You are forgetting the flight time of the grenades there Bud. Do you expect them to turn around in midair or begin loitering?

_____________________________

Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

(in reply to Voriax)
Post #: 67
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 2:48:34 AM   
JJKettunen


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Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

The obvious problem is that I do not vision mine and opponents turns happening simultaneously or combined. Now, if the game is 'plot everything and then watch action take place' thats another matter, but turn based is your turn, my turn, your turn etc. You may think in a way of combined turns,that's your right. And as such combining in 'my version' does not take place hence there is no problem with smaller increment arty delays.


So time is irrelevant factor in this game? This game doesn't try to model real-time action with igo-ugo system, but is actually more like a game of chess? Is that what you are trying to say here? FYI, one turn consists of actions of both sides, the turn number doesn't change when player 2 starts to move his forces...

Wego-system is another way to model real-time action, but otherwise it has nothing to do with this game. The problem with smaller increment arty delays in igo-ugo-system is that arty shells have then their very own time-zone, striking down with the speed of light.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax
Too bad this isn't a tabletop game where an arty barrage can be effective for severals turns. But then, I think CL will have something like that.


Well, if you have enough ammo, you can bombard several turns in this game, no problem with that. I really hope that with CL we don't have arty shells hovering above, just waiting the word from a FO to land instantly...or to be more correct, land ahead of time...

< Message edited by Keke -- 2/18/2004 2:53:57 AM >

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

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Post #: 68
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 6:26:54 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		BruceAZ, the OOB team had saved many of the prior suggestions for our private use, but, alas, the old thread was lost due to the hacker attack. So, I've started it all over.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

quote:

ORIGINAL: hogg

What data do we have on historical times for 'see target - shells land' delay?


Well, in Finnish arty the time from FO giving a target to the first shot to be fired was 5-8 minutes if the battery wasn't already firing. If it was and the target was close to the previous target the time was reduced to 2-5 minutes. Depends if the whole carriage had to be turned or not.
Add flight times to that..but then you'd need to know if the firing unit is 5 or 15km away.
Not mentioning the muzzle velocities, flightpath shape...

Voriax


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Post #: 69
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 6:52:15 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Well, many of you seem to express interest in putting the old mare to sleep, but yet still have ideas to pump life back into her. I find all this curious, but it only tells me that SPWaW will continue to be a going concern. The only reason I can see is that it's a great but seriously flawed tactical game system. No one doubts that, but its fan base has not declined in the past few years--it has increased, and it's still being downloaded.
It's just a classic wargame--no one can dispute that. We still argue over the minutiae of weapons capabilities and what not, so obviously it has retained its value. How many other game systems can say that?

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 2/17/2004 11:54:28 PM >

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Post #: 70
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 9:09:09 AM   
Voriax

 

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Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen


he has at least a reasonably accurate knowledge of flight times? T



Who's forgetting what?

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Rune Iversen)
Post #: 71
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 9:30:38 AM   
Voriax

 

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


Well, if you have enough ammo, you can bombard several turns in this game, no problem with that. I really hope that with CL we don't have arty shells hovering above, just waiting the word from a FO to land instantly...or to be more correct, land ahead of time...


Ever played tabletop wargames? In them it is quite possible to fire a barrage that leaves all target hexes under constant fire. Therefore if the opponent decides to move through such hex during his turn the unit risks damage from arty bombardment. Bombarding several turns in this game means rof x tubes of shells,impact at the same time, then a 5 minute coffee break, then repeat until.

I really wonder where some people got this funny idea of shells hovering in the air????

And yes, as long as it is impossible to know how long a turn really is, time is to a large degree irrelevant. IMO. If its 3 minutes, then arty delay should be around 2-6 turns. With 5 minutes 1-4 turns. Depending of country. With 10 minutes the strike should actually arrive during turn in some cases.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 72
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 3:04:30 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
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From: Houston, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

Sorry.
I thought I was talking about ammunition.

Oops
My fault you were talking about ammunition.

(in reply to Major Destruction)
Post #: 73
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 6:47:47 PM   
Ken Legg

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 2/18/2004
Status: offline 		Well, first off, I think the main menu should cause the game menu to appear instead of the ESC key (which is what I have to press to get the game menu to display onscreen).
The blank screen effect is still something I'm not sure about. I have a GeForce 4 Ti4600 Vivo video card. The avi's and intro screens do not appear at all and goes directly to the game menu (after pressing the ESC key).

Is there a bug in this part of the main menu screen where I select "PLAY STEEL PANTHERS WORLD AT WAR" and get a blank screen ?

< Message edited by Ken Legg -- 2/18/2004 4:49:06 PM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 74
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 6:50:48 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ken Legg

Is there a bug in this part of the main menu screen where I select "PLAY STEEL PANTHERS WORLD AT WAR" and get a blank screen ?


I'd say there is. This new start menu has caused a lot of problems. Luckily starting the game from mech.exe still works and is imho the best method for starting the game.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 75
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 7:10:49 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

Ever played tabletop wargames? In them it is quite possible to fire a barrage that leaves all target hexes under constant fire. Therefore if the opponent decides to move through such hex during his turn the unit risks damage from arty bombardment. Bombarding several turns in this game means rof x tubes of shells,impact at the same time, then a 5 minute coffee break, then repeat until.


No I haven't. I must admit that that is a better way to model arty fire in an igo-ugo system compared to shells landing in the end of each turn. CL will have that kind of systen, doesn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

I really wonder where some people got this funny idea of shells hovering in the air????


Well, if delay times are almost nil, then shells must hover over the targets waiting for their instant release...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax
And yes, as long as it is impossible to know how long a turn really is, time is to a large degree irrelevant. IMO. If its 3 minutes, then arty delay should be around 2-6 turns. With 5 minutes 1-4 turns. Depending of country. With 10 minutes the strike should actually arrive during turn in some cases.


It's not impossible to deduce the time of one turn. Just check the distance and speed of infantry and tanks they can reach in one turn. I did this a long time ago, and it showed, with some variety, that one turn is 3-5 mins long.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Voriax)
Post #: 76
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 10:14:54 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Regarding the actual OOB, my suggestion is simple: For tanks and guns, restore the unit data from 7.1 OOBs. They are now all screwed up.

< Message edited by Keke -- 2/18/2004 10:16:25 PM >

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 77
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 10:49:07 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		The encyclopedia for russia has an awful lot of repeats in it.

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Post #: 78
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/18/2004 11:06:18 PM   
Igor

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 12/11/2000
Status: offline 		For those who want an off board battery with more `realistic' supplies, why not just edit up the ammo and point cost of the battery? Granted, this assumes that the battery is really dedicated to your battalion; and can't be called on by anyone else or forced to relocate (or whatever else might come up)...which wasn't always the case.

As a personal mod for off board guns; I assume 3 minute turns, and set the ROF for the various off board guns up to 9+ (6, in the case of 203s); and use that for initial fire/pregame bombardments. Then I disable guns 3 and 4 for sustained fire. It works out pretty well, IMHO.

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 79
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 1:40:56 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		I think there is a problem with the availability date of the German 76mm AT gun. It is showing up very early before the gun was introduced.

Recon
Semper Fi

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Post #: 80
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 1:52:29 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		all of them?

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They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 81
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 1:53:28 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: robot

The encyclopedia for russia has an awful lot of repeats in it.


Please be specific

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 82
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 1:55:10 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BruceAZ

I think there is a problem with the availability date of the German 76mm AT gun. It is showing up very early before the gun was introduced.

When was it introduced?

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to BruceAZ)
Post #: 83
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 1:58:48 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Igor

As a personal mod for off board guns; I assume 3 minute turns, and set the ROF for the various off board guns up to 9+ (6, in the case of 203s); and use that for initial fire/pregame bombardments. Then I disable guns 3 and 4 for sustained fire. It works out pretty well, IMHO.


I like your edit. This would work in pbem too if the OOB's relected higher ROF's
Apart from the 203's and bigger guns which should not fire more than 1-2 rounds per minute.

It looks like no matter what changes are implemented, somebody will complain. At least in a pbem arena players can adapt the limitations of the game to their own abilities. This, I think, models the commander on the spot having to adapt his style to available resources.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to Igor)
Post #: 84
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 2:19:46 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

It looks like no matter what changes are implemented, somebody will complain.


Especially if those changes are not needed, not asked by anybody and, most importantly, have no correlation with reality (see latest "experiments" with tank data).

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Major Destruction)
Post #: 85
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 2:21:43 AM   
harlekwin


Posts: 5863
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: arkham asylum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

It looks like no matter what changes are implemented, somebody will complain.


Especially if those changes are not needed, not asked by anybody and, most importantly, have no correlation with reality (see latest "experiments" with tank data).




yup....

if people want "balance" play checkers....

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Post #: 86
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 4:37:14 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		The captured 76.2 ATGs were used as soon as the Germans got them. In 8.2 we have them available for use starting in July 1941. I don't think that's too early.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BruceAZ

I think there is a problem with the availability date of the German 76mm AT gun. It is showing up very early before the gun was introduced.

Recon
Semper Fi


_____________________________


(in reply to BruceAZ)
Post #: 87
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 2:44:17 PM   
Rune Iversen


Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

The captured 76.2 ATGs were used as soon as the Germans got them. In 8.2 we have them available for use starting in July 1941. I don't think that's too early.



It is.

_____________________________

Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

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Post #: 88
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 3:14:36 PM   
harlekwin


Posts: 5863
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From: arkham asylum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

The captured 76.2 ATGs were used as soon as the Germans got them. In 8.2 we have them available for use starting in July 1941. I don't think that's too early.



It is.



Yeah well the Axis NEEDS to get eqpt on prototype dates while the allied get it on deploy dates....

"balance" my friend "balance"....

_____________________________

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Post #: 89
RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/19/2004 3:43:42 PM   
o4r

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline 		Did Anybody place a 1000 HP engine on that Jadgtiger. It is running like a spot car.

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Post #: 90
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