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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC... - 5/20/2009 5:40:03 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames


quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

An idea occurred to me that would be nice for some future WiF product. Since the game (netplay anyway) is likely to involve teammates, some program that will expedite taking a section of board to draw up plans, and then send them to your partner. This can be done now using MSpaint, though perhaps a program could facilitate it, while allowing one to include more details. Just a thought.....

if the full unified scale map is available as a PDF, then cyberboard, vassal, zun tsu could be used in this regard.

Not my call - it is up the Matrix Games. I might note that it would take some work. The last time I made an attempt it required taking multiple screen shots and then fitting the pieces together. The resultant file is enormous.

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Post #: 571
RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC... - 6/11/2009 2:05:43 AM   
macgregor


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Status: offline 		Drawing up plans is an art, but can easily be accomplished using screengrab(what's the command?)mspaint and email. IMO time should not be spent on this.

Steve, I know one of your pet peeves is the time it takes some people to move(moi?). Could you create an option that will automatically im(or whatever) the turn to the server after ...perhaps an adjustable time? My guess is that you're probably way ahead of me on this. But I just felt the need to mention it.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 572
RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC... - 6/11/2009 3:09:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Drawing up plans is an art, but can easily be accomplished using screengrab(what's the command?)mspaint and email. IMO time should not be spent on this.

Steve, I know one of your pet peeves is the time it takes some people to move(moi?). Could you create an option that will automatically im(or whatever) the turn to the server after ...perhaps an adjustable time? My guess is that you're probably way ahead of me on this. But I just felt the need to mention it.

I dislike having the program act as a parent. The players should be able to sort this out by themselves. Mostly I am leery of having the program insensitive to unusual happenings. For example, as I was writing this reply the fire alarm went off in our building. Quite deafening. There was no fire, but such external events could affect game play.
---
Then there was the chess tournament I played in where the group in the hotel ballroom next door started blasting out polka music using an impressive sound system. Nothing like a rousing version of "Roll out the barrels" to help one's concentration.

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Post #: 573
Fog of War - 7/16/2009 8:06:28 PM   
macgregor


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Status: offline 		Forgive me if it's already been discussed, but will there be an option to include fog of war?

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Post #: 574
RE: Fog of War - 7/16/2009 8:20:13 PM   
MajorDude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Forgive me if it's already been discussed, but will there be an option to include fog of war?



Wasn't fog of war already an option in cwif?

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Post #: 575
RE: Fog of War - 7/16/2009 8:26:46 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude


quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Forgive me if it's already been discussed, but will there be an option to include fog of war?



Wasn't fog of war already an option in cwif?

No there is no fog of war in MWIF.

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RE: Fog of War - 7/16/2009 8:42:04 PM   
composer99


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Status: offline 		With the sheer volume of threads, posts within each thread, etc. I shouldn't be surprised if many topics have been re-hashed on more than one occasion.

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RE: Fog of War - 7/16/2009 10:04:02 PM   
MajorDude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude


quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Forgive me if it's already been discussed, but will there be an option to include fog of war?



Wasn't fog of war already an option in cwif?

No there is no fog of war in MWIF.



I will check this evening, but I thought cwif had FOW. I know it is too late for adding anything new, but do you know why there would be no FOW in mwif (lack of interest in the feature, too hard to code, opposition to it by the majority of players, etc...)?

Don't get me wrong, imho one of the main uses of FOW in wif would be playing against an AIO, and that only if the FOW applied to the AIO's knowledge as well - which could require a good deal of additional coding that also might not be worth the effort for such a small return.


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Post #: 578
RE: Fog of War - 7/16/2009 10:13:45 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude


quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Forgive me if it's already been discussed, but will there be an option to include fog of war?



Wasn't fog of war already an option in cwif?

No there is no fog of war in MWIF.

Correct. This was discussed several times, though I do not know in which thread(s).

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RE: Fog of War - 7/16/2009 11:42:48 PM   
MajorDude


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Status: offline 		I checked, and yes, cwif has an option for FOW.

But, as I said above, no biggie if mwif doesn't have it - I will admit that I was quite surprised to see it in cwif in the first place - lol.

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RE: Fog of War - 7/19/2009 9:09:52 PM   
macgregor


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Status: offline 		I won't speculate as to why it was omitted from MWiF, but personally I think it represents an advantage the computer game has over the boardgame(which is probably why it's in CWiF). Why it was omitted after already being in CWiF is something I'd be interested in knowing. Am I alone in being a proponent of Fog of War? Does it not make for a more realistic game?

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RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 2:17:59 PM   
Kham

 

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Status: offline 		I am not sure. There is an optional rule with fleets - where you can have your opponent guessing what is in a task force. But WIF is a strategic level game and the small stuff is rolled into the dice rolls - search rolls in particular seem to account for a certain amount of naval hide and seek and the abstract air and land combat rolls could easily be perceived to include bad or no intelligence about the exact strength of enemy forces.

WIF does not need a Fog of War. Surprises happens all the time with all counters in plain sight.



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Post #: 582
RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 4:32:25 PM   
MajorDude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kham

... Surprises happens all the time with all counters in plain sight.




Oh, how true - lol!

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Post #: 583
RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 5:00:21 PM   
macgregor


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Status: offline 		So you guys are essentially saying 'fog of war' is a casualty of Steve's vision and 'what's it to me?'. While I can imagine it a casualty of the plethora of information now already displayed on the pieces, I'd like to think it remains a target of a future MWiF product.

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Post #: 584
RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 6:04:45 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

So you guys are essentially saying 'fog of war' is a casualty of Steve's vision and 'what's it to me?'. While I can imagine it a casualty of the plethora of information now already displayed on the pieces, I'd like to think it remains a target of a future MWiF product.

I have discussed this on at least 2 occasions previously, in quite some detail.

The short story is that given the scale of the map and units, FOW is built into the game design. If the game were about infantry patrols into cities and the like, including FOW is obvious. But given that we are talking about 10,000 men, minimum, and moving them over a period of 1 - 2 weeks, the enemy pretty much always knew what was going on. Naval movement is once per turn, which simulates operations over a 2 month time period.

Surprise is implemented as a separate set of rules following declarations of war and in the search procedures when at sea. The other game element that enables surprise is the uncertainty as to who moves first in each turn and the ability of armored units to move 6 hexes in an impulse and then attack. We are talking about 540 KM (325 miles) here. Things like invasions and paradrops are not forewarned in the game - at least not as to where the attack will take place.

In summary, FOW in MWIF makes no real sense, in that it does not simulate anything. The forum discusssion on how to implement it revealed that rather clearly. For example, when can you 'see' a unit? What can you see? When does it 'disappear'? And so on. All of these questions can only be answered well if you have a fundamental design concept in place: what you are simulating. That could not be resolved in the forum discussion on this topic - for the reasons given above.

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RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 6:12:45 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I have discussed this on at least 2 occasions previously, in quite some detail.

The short story is that given the scale of the map and units, FOW is built into the game design. If the game were about infantry patrols into cities and the like, including FOW is obvious. But given that we are talking about 10,000 men, minimum, and moving them over a period of 1 - 2 weeks, the enemy pretty much always knew what was going on. Naval movement is once per turn, which simulates operations over a 2 month time period.

Surprise is implemented as a separate set of rules following declarations of war and in the search procedures when at sea. The other game element that enables surprise is the uncertainty as to who moves first in each turn and the ability of armored units to move 6 hexes in an impulse and then attack. We are talking about 540 KM (325 miles) here. Things like invasions and paradrops are not forewarned in the game - at least not as to where the attack will take place.

In summary, FOW in MWIF makes no real sense, in that it does not simulate anything. The forum discusssion on how to implement it revealed that rather clearly. For example, when can you 'see' a unit? What can you see? When does it 'disappear'? And so on. All of these questions can only be answered well if you have a fundamental design concept in place: what you are simulating. That could not be resolved in the forum discussion on this topic - for the reasons given above.

I agree.

People interested in this, and knowledgable of the WiF FE game, can still devise a fog of war rule, that answers all the questions that such a rule carries with it (such as those listed by steve above), and I'm sure that Steve will happily add this to the future expansions of the MWiF game (MWiF 2 ?).

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RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 6:30:45 PM   
macgregor


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Status: offline 		Perhaps I should have spoken earlier. I agree that to some degree the scale would make front line engaged units fairly well-known. But if I'm the German preparing Barbarossa, the Japanese preparing 'plan Z', or even the Allies preparing the invasion of Europe, I'd like the little bit of extra secrecy such an optional rule would afford. WiF has always strived to represent the war as realistically as possible. Did the ability to obscure troop movement and weapon deployment play a factor in the war? I ask you.
I don't know. Without land reconnaissance being represented perhaps this is the logical compromise.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 7/20/2009 6:35:18 PM >

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RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 7:29:27 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Perhaps I should have spoken earlier. I agree that to some degree the scale would make front line engaged units fairly well-known. But if I'm the German preparing Barbarossa, the Japanese preparing 'plan Z', or even the Allies preparing the invasion of Europe, I'd like the little bit of extra secrecy such an optional rule would afford. WiF has always strived to represent the war as realistically as possible. Did the ability to obscure troop movement and weapon deployment play a factor in the war? I ask you.
I don't know. Without land reconnaissance being represented perhaps this is the logical compromise.

Warspite1

"I'd like the little bit of extra secrecy such an optional rule would afford."

But you have that. The Germans knew the second front was coming - the only thing they did not know was exactly where and when. As the Allied player you can have your units in the UK ready for an invasion but that does not give away where - which part of France? Norway? etc; or the time the attack will take place.

Equally for operations in the Pacific - apart from extremes like Indian Ocean over Eastern Pacific, the Japanese player can diguise actual invasion points while amassing forces in say Truk or Rabaul or Manilla.

As for Stalin - he was not playing with Fog of War he had all the intelligence he needed - the Germans couldn`t have made it more clear they were massing for Barbarossa if they all stood up in flourescent jackets, each with a megaphone and screaming at the top of their voice "we are coming to get you".

I don`t think having a Fog of War option is a bad thing - I just don`t think WIF needs it.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/20/2009 7:30:41 PM >

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RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 9:55:53 PM   
Orm


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Status: offline 		Many (most?) countries had reconnaissance aircraft on divisional or corps level. They therefore had good knowledge on where the enemy was located and what type of formation it was.

With that said you could of course argue that you should perhaps not know the exact strength on the enemy units so you could calculate the odds before you attack. The die roll of the attack is fog of war enogh for me on a game on this scale.

At sea they usually knew in what sea area the enemy ships where located. Often they did not know the exact location but they did know the general area where the ship or submarines where located.

For example. During Bismarks infamous sortie to the Atlantic CW knew that Bismark sailed from the Baltic towards the North sea. From then on they knew exactly in which sea area Bismark was untill she was sunk. During this sortie most of the time CW had no idea of exactly where Bismark was but they sure did know in what sea area Bismark was in.

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RE: Fog of War - 7/20/2009 11:13:32 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		I don't think the game needs very much in the way of Fog of War, either.

Some day I hope future designs with computer assistance can help implement simultaneous movement instead of the I-Go-You-Go approach, especially for naval movement.

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RE: Fog of War - 7/21/2009 10:00:32 AM   
Greywolf

 

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Status: offline 		I played CWiF with FoW in solo and frankly it is a good riddance... FoW didn't add anything to WiF, it only make the attack most costly and stupid...

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RE: Fog of War - 9/4/2009 6:56:04 AM   
Skanvak

 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

I wonder if there will be a way to edit the CRT? One of our house rule is to modify the CRT to have result that required to lose a corps (or 2 division) even if there is a division to take the lose. Or that consider that a corps is 2 divisions for loss purpose. I wonder if it is possible to easily mod the final to have this result?

Don't bother if it is complicated, but it something I want to be able to do if that can be acheive easily.

As someone say a good fog of war with intelligence rules is really a must for a computer game, but I guess that such rules should be remade from scratch for the computer game. The original intelligence rules was here to simulate the advantage of intel in a no FoW envirronnement, where as with a computer you can really simulate the result (good, false or none) of intel and let the player try to make decision with imperfect information. That is a possibility to add another level of historicity as the allied intel services were generally better than the axis' one.

I guess that the CwiF FoW was total. I think that a FoW should never be total for unit on the front line (and in range on recon aircraft). That why I advocate a rethink fog of War. I mean a real one (the one where the German can see the Patton fake army as a real one or the Allied be able to know the location of all German sub in the atlantics). A good FoW is not a situation where you know nothing, but a situation where you know whatever your intel can tel you (right or wrong).

So I still advocate for a new FoW rules.

< Message edited by Skanvak -- 9/4/2009 7:02:02 AM >

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RE: Fog of War - 9/4/2009 9:12:53 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Hi,

I wonder if there will be a way to edit the CRT? One of our house rule is to modify the CRT to have result that required to lose a corps (or 2 division) even if there is a division to take the lose. Or that consider that a corps is 2 divisions for loss purpose. I wonder if it is possible to easily mod the final to have this result?

Don't bother if it is complicated, but it something I want to be able to do if that can be acheive easily.

As someone say a good fog of war with intelligence rules is really a must for a computer game, but I guess that such rules should be remade from scratch for the computer game. The original intelligence rules was here to simulate the advantage of intel in a no FoW envirronnement, where as with a computer you can really simulate the result (good, false or none) of intel and let the player try to make decision with imperfect information. That is a possibility to add another level of historicity as the allied intel services were generally better than the axis' one.

I guess that the CwiF FoW was total. I think that a FoW should never be total for unit on the front line (and in range on recon aircraft). That why I advocate a rethink fog of War. I mean a real one (the one where the German can see the Patton fake army as a real one or the Allied be able to know the location of all German sub in the atlantics). A good FoW is not a situation where you know nothing, but a situation where you know whatever your intel can tel you (right or wrong).

So I still advocate for a new FoW rules.

Modifying the CRT falls into the category of what I consider WIF Design Kit, which is not part of MWIF product #1.
------
We reached a similar conclusion about fog of war. It needs to start with a philosophy about what is being simulated. Without that you are just making a bunch of ad hoc decisions. The time frame of multiple impulses per 2 month turn and the scale of 90 KM per hex makes FOW a very difficult idea to conceptualize for MWIF.

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Post #: 593
RE: Fog of War - 9/23/2009 5:56:27 PM   
Skanvak

 

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Status: offline 		Is it the right place to ask if we can have an AI that has the historical leader psychology? I reckon it might too much work for now though but I think about it I would like to see it. I will developp if needed.

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RE: Fog of War - 9/23/2009 8:01:02 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Is it the right place to ask if we can have an AI that has the historical leader psychology? I reckon it might too much work for now though but I think about it I would like to see it. I will developp if needed.

I believe that will weaken the AIO too much, since it would then be very predictable.

We know what actually happened historically (though there are differring viewpoints on that). During the war, the historical leaders did not know what the other side was going to do (Enigma aside). When players say they would like to play against historical leaders, it just seems to me that they want to have a calendar of the enemy actions in advance.

Small things caused major changes in policy and decisions during the war. In retrospect we view them as "what Hitler/Stalin/Mao/Churchill/... decided" with the expectation that that would have been true regardless of what had gone before. If the Belgians had spotted the Germans about to paradrop into Liege and mounted a successful defense of the fortress, how would the rest of that campaign worked out? You can plug in any of hundreds/thousands of instances of small things that made a huge difference. The Japanese slacked off in their attacks in China, but if their earlier attacks had gone especially well, they might have increased their effort there enormously.

To restrict the AIO to always behaving in a set way: strategically, operationally, and tactically, regardless of other events in the war seems less than reasonable. Historically, the Axis made no effort to take Malta. So, if I am playing against an historical Axis AIO, there is no need to defend Malta at all. And be sure to put a strong defense in the Ardennes, so the Germans get crushed trying to force their way through there. Don't worry about an invasion of England, the Germans aren't going to attempt it; they are just going to hope the Brits sue for peace. And so on.

If you want more of an historical flavor, you could start the war at different points using one of the 6 scenarios that start later than Sept/Oct 1939. But even then don't expect the AIO to just plod along following a predictable historical course.
===
Perhaps I seem too harsh here, and if so, I apologize. But I keep having players ask for the AIO to play like 'historical' leaders. This is the first time I have buttressed my reasons so substantially with prose.

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Post #: 595
RE: Fog of War - 9/23/2009 9:22:23 PM   
composer99


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Status: offline 		A common saying among WiF players is that we do not expect players to be forced to make the same mistakes that the real-life political & military leaders did (players will make their own mistakes instead). Playing Germany in my current table-top game, I would be upset if there was an expectation that I had to actually run my army into the ground the way Hitler did.

An AIO that was 'straitjacketed' into historical play would be easy to beat, from either side, which would reduce the historical value of the game even more than an AIO that attempted to play optimally.

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Post #: 596
RE: Fog of War - 9/23/2009 10:29:14 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		one can always play both sides and make them both do whatever you want

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RE: Fog of War - 9/24/2009 4:25:27 AM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		I will say though that this 'historical AI' has been a very common feature request over the years of development. I'm not sure anyone really wants an AI opponent to follow a purely historical script. But I do think it would be and should be, without too much trouble in the script programming, for it to be possible for the AI choices to preclude really wild decisions like Japanese appearances in western Europe or the 'No-USA' gambits in either main theater; things that are possible within the rules of course but probably not all that plausible in history. This could actually be a way to strengthen the game and people's enjoyment of it....allowing the _possibility_ of the AI to pick such a wild strategy with no promises that it will happen, with as strong as possible grand strategy script to implement it; while disallowing some of the more extreme choices in most games. No one should tell the player just exactly what those are, just that they can turn off crazy game-only strategies. I don't think it would be hobbling the AI much to disallow the three strategies I mentioned, as they are ones only ever selected by experienced players looking for variety (and they are far from certified game-winners). Whereas if the AI were to make such a call against an unsuspecting human player, that would not be too popular.

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Post #: 598
RE: Fog of War - 9/24/2009 6:22:53 AM   
CSSS

 

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From: TEXAS
Status: offline 		As far as FOW, if I am playing the German can I inspect the Russian stacks, or only see the top unit, unless I ground strike it?

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RE: Fog of War - 9/24/2009 6:36:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CSS

As far as FOW, if I am playing the German can I inspect the Russian stacks, or only see the top unit, unless I ground strike it?

No fog of war except for chits/markers (neutrality pacts and US Entry).

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