Hurtgen scenario questions

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Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/23/2004 5:38:26 PM

Major_Johnson

Posts: 280
Joined: 6/29/2000
From: Beach Haven, NJ, USA
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I'm in the middle of a PBEM playing the 2 Hurtgen scenario, me being on the US side, and I have a few artillery related questions. The main question is my mortars are located next to some sort of Weapons Squad. What the heck is their purpose?? In other scenarios mortar squads were always next to some sort of ammo dump, something that could keep them re-supplied. So I figured that that's what this weapon's squad was for. But my mortars ran out of ammo turns ago and have never gotten re-supplied. So now I'm at the point of where I had to bail out the crews to use them more effectively.

Another observation is that in this scenario the Germans seem to have endless artillery, where as I've used my sparingly, and it's all gone (after 8 turns). I remember reading (here in the forum) how supposedly the war was won with the Allied overwhelming artillery (and it's been quite the topic of debate from time to time), but in this scenario the Allied artillery is surprisingly lacking.

Oh, and while I'm at it, what are the factors for Engineer squads in laying mines?? Do they have an endless supply? I have some squads that lay mines after one turn and others that have never laid any after 3 turns. Any info on this would be appreciated, as I'm having my ass handed to me in this one.

Also an observation for all people who believe that air power accuracy should be reduced. 8 P-47s available, 7 targeted at armored vehicles of some sort, only 1 kill.

< Message edited by Major_Johnson -- 3/27/2004 2:48:20 PM >

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M.J.!
We serve others best when at the same time we serve ourselves.

Post #: 1

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/24/2004 12:21:40 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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To which scenarios are you making reference, Major? Slot Number if they are in 8.0, or author. If I could see the scenario, I could answer better.

I did a series on the Hurtgen, Kommerscheidt, 5 scenarios, plus a campaign. Are you referring to these or something else?

WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Major_Johnson)

Post #: 2

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/24/2004 2:35:12 AM

Major_Johnson

Posts: 280
Joined: 6/29/2000
From: Beach Haven, NJ, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

To which scenarios are you making reference, Major? Slot Number if they are in 8.0, or author. If I could see the scenario, I could answer better.

I did a series on the Hurtgen, Kommerscheidt, 5 scenarios, plus a campaign. Are you referring to these or something else?

WB

Sorry about that Bill, I just naturally assumed that whoever would just know which scenario I was referring too!

Anyway it's the 2nd scenario of that 5 scenario set you referred too. Any info would be appreciated. But one little update, one of the US engineer squads I was referring too did finally lay some mines, but these others I'm still waiting on. The one squad I can imagine might be suppressed or just plain scared sh*tless cause they are like right in the thick of things and even just destroyed one of my opponents Whirlwinds during his turn, so maybe that might play a factor. This other one though, is in relative safety, no artillery barrages are even coming close to them. So I guess that's what's puzzling me. And they've been in this one hex for at least 4 turns. Thanks for your help.

_____________________________

M.J.!
We serve others best when at the same time we serve ourselves.

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 3

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/27/2004 8:22:25 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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quote:

Let's see if I can help here, Jeff. The weapons squad is really infantry attached to the weapons platoon for protection. There were always a few men within those mortar and MG teams that also served as riflemen, sort of bodyguards you might say. They carried ammo but deposited it with the teams.

I did not include ammo units because ammo during the Hurtgen fighting was at a premium, especially for artillery. The supply lines had been stretched to the limit and in some areas, artillery pieces were only allotted a certain amount of rounds to fire, occasionally as low as 5-10 a day!

Yes, artillery was the primary killer in WW2. But in this particular situation, artillery was not always available at an instant's notice. There was simultaneous fighting in other areas of the Hurtgen and artillery could only attend to so many requests at a time.

As to air support, we have been brainwashed as to its effectiveness. Overall, it was a killer, but not quite as we picture it. The war films show us rockest, MG fire and bombs right on target. Sadly that is not the case. One kill in 8 tries is more accurate than we realize. And don't forget a unit can be suppressed by that fire. Remember each hexe is 50 meters square or hexagonal. That is more space than one might realize to try to hit a targe in an aircraft perhaps under fire itself flying at 350+ miles an hour.

I'm not sure of the engineer ratio in laying mines. It is apparently pretty good, perhaps better than it should be. A turn equals five minustes more or less, and to lay more than one mine in five minutes and keep your gonads is quite a feat for any engineer.

I hope this answers your questions so far. I try to put a bit of realism into these scenarios to demonstrate the necessity of improvisation by a combat commander (You) in difficult if not impossible situations.

I'm thrilled you are enjoying these. They took me a long time to do, with a lot of reseach, map and unit editing and a lot of testing. Good hunting to you and your brother.

Wild Bill

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Major_Johnson)

Post #: 4

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/27/2004 8:32:24 PM

Major_Johnson

Posts: 280
Joined: 6/29/2000
From: Beach Haven, NJ, USA
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NICE!!! Just the info I was looking for!! Now it all makes sense!! Thanks a bunch!!

As me playing the U.S., thus far in the first two scenarios I've gotten my butt kicked pretty good, although the 2nd one I was able to eek out a draw from the game, but how is mind boggling to me since I only had 2 crews left!! But we just started the 3rd scenario (#57 in the game). It doesn't look good already!!! I just finished the first turn and my guys are retreating already!!

And that's only from the artillery barrage!! But I'll take as many of them with me as I can!!!!!

_____________________________

M.J.!
We serve others best when at the same time we serve ourselves.

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 5

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/28/2004 5:02:44 PM

alexcraig

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/8/2004
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Morning Wild Bill,

As Jeff's opponent (and brother

please allow me to also extend my appreciation for the time, effort and expertise it took to develop the Hurtgen series. They are among the best, we've played, thus far.

As with a well authored book, this series is hard "to put down". I generally limit myself to a given number of turns per day. However, I've snuck an extra turn in on this series, here and there.

They will go on my list of "play agains".

On a more general note, I remain impressed with the level of realism that has been achieved by the developers of the game. The end result is the necessity to simultaneously taken into account a multitude of factors that must have been germane to the commanders on the scene in one's straegic assessments and moves .... and yet, enhancing the realism, Lady Luck does indeed play a role

.

Thanks again and regards,

Alex Craig

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 6

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/29/2004 2:39:25 AM

Major Destruction

Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
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Can't find the time to definitively answer the question about mine laying but here's some observations:

Engineers will/will not lay mines as soon as they deploy. Set your engineer platoon to place mines during your deployment and at the start of turn one, some of the squads will have placed up to 2 mines. Others will never place a single mine as long as they have never moved.

Engineers will find it tough to place mines in rough terrain.

Enginners will almost never place a mine if they are threatened by incoming fire or if they are in LOS of a unit that can shoot at them. Engineers that have been shot at and carry suppression points will almost never place mines.

Rarely will a single engineer squad place more than 3 mines during a game. I don't know if there is a limit or if this is a coincidence.

Engineer squads that have been set to place mines and then you forget about them will always place a mine in the road that you want to travel down in the next turn.

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They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to alexcraig)

Post #: 7

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/31/2004 5:14:26 PM

Wild Bill

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From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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Thanks Alex. I've talked with your brother at length about this series and I'm thrilled that the two of you are hard at it. The fact that it is so challenging in a PBEM environment is great to know.

Your comments are quite encouraging and I'm far enough removed from the design of those battles that I'm willing to give it another try myself against the infamous AI.

Keep us posted on the results. Sounds like you are giving the Major a hard fight!

One more thing...Accept my personal thanks Alex for your service to me, my family and our country during some very difficult times. You and those who served with you are and always will be heroes!

Wild Bill

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Major Destruction)

Post #: 8

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 3/31/2004 8:12:14 PM

alexcraig

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

Afternoon Sir,

>Thanks Alex. I've talked with your brother at length about this series ?>and I'm thrilled that the two of you are hard at it. The fact that it is so >challenging in a PBEM environment is great to know.

You are quite welcome.

>Your comments are quite encouraging and I'm far enough removed >from the design of those battles that I'm willing to give it another try >myself against the infamous AI.

I suspect you'll give the AI a sound thrashing.

>One more thing...Accept my personal thanks Alex for your service to >me, my family and our country during some very difficult times. You >and those who served with you are and always will be heroes!

Those are very kind words and I thank you for them.

"Very difficult times" .... I don't think about Vietnam very often these days. However, that phrase triggers a bit of reflection that reminds me of an anecdote I'd like to take few minutes to relay that pretty much sums up my overview of the conflict in Vietnam.

Bear with me while I lay a little groundwork.

My father-in-law was a Lt. in the Army Air Corps, more specifically, a navigator on a B-24 that flew the requisite 25 missions over Germany. He was very fortunate in that he made it through unscathed and he was in one of those unfortunate groups where the casualty rate was horrendous as 82% of the personnel compliment didn't make it.

Years later in the late 1980's, he and I were sitting in the Atrium at his house sipping some fine scotch and bourbon, respectively (never could understand how he could drink that awful stuff

), and somehow the subject of Vietnam came up.

He more or less innocently remarked, "Darn shame we lost that war."

Hearing this, I bristled (and I don't bristle much or easily) and stated. "What do you mean we? WE didn't lose that war. You lost that war!"

He was somewhat startled and asked what I meant by that. To which I responded .... "It was your generation that was in charge of that war, not ours. And, with all the truly heroic accomplishments of your generation in WWII, you should have known better! If you had let us, we could have won that war in any 60 day period (perhaps a bit of hyperbole on my part

).

He smiled wistfully and nodded in agreement .... and we went back to our drinks.

Well, enough reminiscing. Time for me to get back to work.

Take care.

Regards,

Alex Craig

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 9

RE: Hurtgen scenario questions - 4/1/2004 1:24:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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So many misconceptions. No you did not lose that war. The bravery demonstrated by Allied forces in many deadly situations, comrades in arms, and devotion to duty has never been exceeded in any other war.

When the GI felt unsupported, unappreciated and forgotten, which did happen in truth in many instances, it certainly killed his spirit.

But believe me Alex, there are a heck of a lot of us out here who know what you did, who remember courage and sacrifice. There are a few names on that wall who were friends of mine too.

So I repeat my thank you once more. We appreciate you.

WB

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to alexcraig)

Post #: 10