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Finland, Sweden OB

 
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Finland, Sweden OB - 10/17/2001 8:37:00 PM   
asgrrr

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 9/18/2001
From: Iceland
Status: offline 		I have a bone or two to pick with the Finns. Overall, the OB is diverse and very interesting, especially regarding infantry. On the other hand it does seem a bit "rich" in that all the infantry units are very well equipped and with zero rarity. Finland was after all a country of extremely limited resources. I feel it would be more appropriate to include units of lesser capability but increase the rarity of the present units. I am particularly curious about the finnish satchel carges. These seem to have been available in enormous quantity. The picture of the "AT/Sachel C" unit shows a large, box like handgrenade. What is this thing? How effective was it and what was the availability? Also, some prewar units have the molotov, but one is led to understand it was "invented" during the winter war.
Then we come to the tanks. These are rather inaccurately represented in terms of availability. Take the Vickers 6 ton. This can be said to be the principal native Finnish tank. Finland had a total of 36 of these tanks, some had only machine guns, while the rest had the 37mm puteaux gun (same as the FT-17) except one (1) that was given a swedish 37mm gun. The latter is the only version to be found in the OB and with zero rarity! Also, later in the war the vickers tanks were renamed T-26E because they were maechanically the same tank as the T-26. In the OB we have a T-26E with russian armament. Speaking of the captured tanks, they have far too low rarity in the OB, lots of 1's or even 0's. In practice, captured tanks always should have very high rarity, not only because of small numbers but also difficulty of maintenance. Finally, has anyone made any effort to create the swedish army for SPWAW? I am more than a little disappointed that this militarily remarkable country has been completely left out of the SP series.

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Post #: 1
- 10/17/2001 10:48:00 PM   
miharme

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: Turku, Finland
Status: offline 		As for the Molotov's cocktail, it was invented already in mid-1930's. There's some uncertainty wheteher the Finns or Spaniards (it was used in the Spanish Civil War) have the cudos for inventing it, but it's quite possible that such a simple weapon was invented independently in two different places.

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Post #: 2
- 10/17/2001 11:49:00 PM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		Well,
Finland captured enough T26s in the Winter War at least, to form an armored battalion by the time of the Continuation War. Additionally, many of them were rebuilt in Finnish factories, partially to standardize spares with Finnish logistics. Additionally they did not need re-arming, as the Finns were already using standard Soviet ammunition. The point about the Vickers 6tonners is valid-though I think they are included for variety; rarity is probably not the way to do that.
Secondly the "satchel charge" is actually a grenade bundle used very effectively by the Finns during the Winter War (and Continuation/Lapland Wars).
Finally Sweden isn't included for the prosaic reason they didn't engage during WW2, with the exception of the volunteers in Finland. Switzerland's not in the game either.

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Post #: 3
- 10/18/2001 12:28:00 AM   
asgrrr

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 9/18/2001
From: Iceland
Status: offline 		Thank you for enlightening us about those grenade thingies. This being the case, I see a need to depict these weapons more accurately. We are obviously speaking of a specialized weapon of a different kind from a satchel charge. Perhaps something closer to the RPG-3 in nature? By the way, that latter weapon was just a large handgrenade if I am not mistaken, but yet is less lethal than a regular grenade?

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Never hate your enemy.
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Post #: 4
- 10/18/2001 2:06:00 AM   
ananias


Posts: 141
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Mikko Härmeinen:
As for the Molotov's cocktail, it was invented already in mid-1930's. There's some uncertainty wheteher the Finns or Spaniards (it was used in the Spanish Civil War) have the cudos for inventing it, but it's quite possible that such a simple weapon was invented independently in two different places.
I remember reading somewhere that the IRA used molotov´s cocktail-type weapons against the british armored cars as early as in the 1920´s. I might be wrong, so don´t quote me on that.

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Post #: 5
- 10/18/2001 2:52:00 AM   
King__Thunder

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: Finland in the capital of Kimi Räikkönen.
Status: offline 		Penetrator read this.
http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinAT/FINantitank2.htm
it is from a great winterwar site (http://www.winterwar.com/)

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Post #: 6
- 10/18/2001 4:43:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps something closer to the RPG-3 in nature? By the way, that latter weapon was just a large handgrenade if I am not mistaken, but yet is less lethal than a regular grenade?

Yeah, that makes sense. I think in game terms, "Satchel charge" works provided the squad can't use it for "real" satchel charge targets-like demolitions.

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Nigel Tufnel

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Post #: 7
- 10/18/2001 3:37:00 PM   
alassi

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 7/30/2001
From: Luleå, Sweden
Status: offline 		Ok..i agree that it would be nice to see a Swedish OB, but during WW2, the swedish army weren´t really that remarkable. That is one reason why the swedish goverment, gave permission to german troop movement in their own country!!!!

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Post #: 8
- 10/18/2001 6:09:00 PM   
asgrrr

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 9/18/2001
From: Iceland
Status: offline 		Thank you thunder, this is all the information needed. Almost. Does anyone know what is the comparative weight of the standard satchel charge found in the game?

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Post #: 9
- 10/18/2001 8:27:00 PM   
Jarkko

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Mikko Härmeinen:
As for the Molotov's cocktail, it was invented already in mid-1930's. There's some uncertainty wheteher the Finns or Spaniards (it was used in the Spanish Civil War) have the cudos for inventing it, but it's quite possible that such a simple weapon was invented independently in two different places.
Finnish engineer officer (unfortunately can't remember his name right now) developed an improved version of molotov cocktail based in ones used at Abessinia and Spain at that time when it is introduced into Finnish oob (I don't have my books right now). Finnish version was "high-tech" version of earlier molotov cocktails, designed having a good mixture that included tar to make the liquid more sticky and able to make more smoke. Early Finnish molotov cocktail used long storm matches for lighting the liquid, later version had a glass capsule of self-igniting material inside the bottle that handled lighting the liquid on fire. Finnish molotov cocktails were not produced before Winter War, but the design was and producing them was not exactly difficult so now they are intoduced when they were invented. Lets face it, if for example Winter War had started 6 months earlier (if one wants to play what-if from it), Finns would have most certainly put it to production immediately after the war would have started in that case also. BTW: Same thing with Finnish satchel charge.

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Post #: 10
- 10/18/2001 8:48:00 PM   
Jarkko

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Grumble:
Well,
Finland captured enough T26s in the Winter War at least, to form an armored battalion by the time of the Continuation War. Additionally, many of them were rebuilt in Finnish factories, partially to standardize spares with Finnish logistics. Additionally they did not need re-arming, as the Finns were already using standard Soviet ammunition. The point about the Vickers 6tonners is valid-though I think they are included for variety; rarity is probably not the way to do that.
Secondly the "satchel charge" is actually a grenade bundle used very effectively by the Finns during the Winter War (and Continuation/Lapland Wars).
Finally Sweden isn't included for the prosaic reason they didn't engage during WW2, with the exception of the volunteers in Finland.
T-26: The captured T-26 are there with rarity of "0" for a reason. T-26 was the most typical tank in Finnish use and T-26B (aka m 1933) was the most usual version in Finnish use and none of the versions used in the game were really rare when compared to other tanks in Finnish inventory at that time. Vickers 6 ton have a rarity rating "0" for a reason also. It was the only tank that Finns acturally used as a tank during Winter War (FT-17 tanks were dug in and served as replacement bunkers that are also in Finnish oob, training of crews for captured tanks took too long for them to be used). Satchel charges: No, they were not bundles of grenades. The picture is a right one. Finns used industrially manufactured (and "home-made" in smaller numbers) satchel charges. That box is a metal box filled with TNT the "stick" coming from the box is handle of stick hand grenade (quite similar to one used in German "potato smasher" hand grenade) that was used to detonate the TNT charge. See:
http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinAT/FINantitank2.htm
Just like Finnish molotov cocktail Finnish industrially made satchel charge was a highly developed version of this weapon type. And yes. The Swedish troops in Finnish oob are indeed modeled to represent troops of Swedish voluntary force that fought on Finnish side at Winter War.

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Post #: 11
- 10/18/2001 9:08:00 PM   
Jarkko

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Penetrator:
Thank you thunder, this is all the information needed. Almost. Does anyone know what is the comparative weight of the standard satchel charge found in the game?
Well, it is way too big. But on the other hand the game engine doesn't handle satchel charges the right way. Finns always threw the satchel charge on top of the tank, and game engine usually tries to use them against side, front or back armour instead of top one (which would be usually much thinner). The basic satchel charge in the game would be too large but when the game engine uses them the wrong way it actually balances the effects. IMHO the end results does seem to be quite realistic.

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Post #: 12
- 10/18/2001 9:14:00 PM   
King__Thunder

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: Finland in the capital of Kimi Räikkönen.
Status: offline 		What if Germany had invaded sweden, (senario)
that would not be a bad senario at all, especialy what I have read about the germans in deep cold finnish woods. they hadn't really any training for that kind of environment (it`s not an insult).
Almost as the same as for the russians.

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Post #: 13
- 10/18/2001 9:57:00 PM   
Jarkko

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Penetrator:
I have a bone or two to pick with the Finns. Overall, the OB is diverse and very interesting, especially regarding infantry. On the other hand it does seem a bit "rich" in that all the infantry units are very well equipped and with zero rarity. Finland was after all a country of extremely limited resources. I feel it would be more appropriate to include units of lesser capability but increase the rarity of the present units. I am particularly curious about the finnish satchel carges. These seem to have been available in enormous quantity. The picture of the "AT/Sachel C" unit shows a large, box like handgrenade. What is this thing? How effective was it and what was the availability? Also, some prewar units have the molotov, but one is led to understand it was "invented" during the winter war.
Then we come to the tanks. These are rather inaccurately represented in terms of availability. Take the Vickers 6 ton. This can be said to be the principal native Finnish tank. Finland had a total of 36 of these tanks, some had only machine guns, while the rest had the 37mm puteaux gun (same as the FT-17) except one (1) that was given a swedish 37mm gun. The latter is the only version to be found in the OB and with zero rarity! Also, later in the war the vickers tanks were renamed T-26E because they were maechanically the same tank as the T-26. In the OB we have a T-26E with russian armament. Speaking of the captured tanks, they have far too low rarity in the OB, lots of 1's or even 0's. In practice, captured tanks always should have very high rarity, not only because of small numbers but also difficulty of maintenance. Finally, has anyone made any effort to create the swedish army for SPWAW? I am more than a little disappointed that this militarily remarkable country has been completely left out of the SP series.
Well I am one of the guys of the team that made it. You now probably already know that satchel charges are available in large numbersfor a reason, they were used in huge quantities in reality also. Basically:
- During early Continuation War when there was shortage of at-rifles the reality was: use satchel charges
- During late Continuation War when at-rifles were too uneffective (and panzerfausts & panzerscrecks were not available) the reality was: use satchel charges The infantry is armed according the offial TO&E and only the most usual changes have been made to that. Yes, the troops in Finnish oob are all well-equipped indeed, but so are troops of all other countries also. And also many Finnish units were even better armed then the ones in the oob. You can reduce the amount of ammo from preferences and if you like to fight with less ammo. If we would have included all possible non-official TO&E variations of Finnish infantry the whole Finnish oob would include only infantry, because there would not have been room for for anything else so we only included the "official" versions of troops. If you like to have Finnish troops that are not so well equipped there is an oob-editor for modifying oob-files included with the game, but remember that very few armies were equally 100% that well equipped as they in the game, so unless you make them less-perfect also you probably would end up ruining game-balance. BTW: The units level of Finnish oob is totally full, if you want to include some new units (like less-well armed rifle squads) it would casting out some units that in the oob right now, which is a really bad idea (any previously made scenarios including units later cast out from oob would not work with that oob). Vickers 6 ton:
The gun + hull-SMG + coax-MG armed version is there for the reason. This was not so rare one as you think, by February 1940 Finns had already 13 of these ready and the rest were under work. T-26E is included also in the oob as Finns had over 20 of them. Captured T-26B was the most usual version (little bit over 40 used?) of these tanks in Finnish use. The whole Finnish T-26 inventory totaled more then 100 tanks. BTW: We had no room to include the most rarest T-26 variation in Finnish use: T-26 m 1940 (Soviet E-version with added armour), Finns had atleast 2 of these and they were used as command tanks of tank companies. The MG-armed version was never used in battle for a good reason: It was waiting to be armed with gun, there was a hole sized of mans head in front turret where the guns were later installed. The
37mm Puteaux armed version was also never used in battle for a good reason either: It was just a training version used in war games of summer 1939. Puteaux gun used in it was so weakly installed that it could only be used to shoot blanks, shooting live ammo from it would have had catastophical consequences.

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Post #: 14
- 10/18/2001 10:38:00 PM   
asgrrr

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 9/18/2001
From: Iceland
Status: offline 		Thank you Jarrko for providing this valuable information. What I wrote on the Vickers 6 ton was taken from a book by B.T. White. Apparently his information is not as reliable as I thought.
But I have some further comments:
1) As I like to understand rarity, it reflects the absolute rarity of a piece of equipment within the armed forces of a given country, not relative to the availability of other similar equipment. Therefore, if a country would be represented in the game that only posessed a single tank throughout the war, that tank type would get a high rarity, even though it was the "most common" tank of that country.
2) The trouble with thrown grenades hitting the sides of tanks is common to all such weapons. Unless the designers have artificially increased the penetration of all such weapons (which may well be the case - the penetration of ordinary handgrenades does seem a bit much), then it would be unfair to give special treatment to the finnish "Kasapanos".
3)Finally, although no army in this period had 100% equipment, it has been my understanding that Finland (the same goes for many minor countries - I have made changes to the Polish OB along the same lines) had a considerably greater difficulty in equipping its troops than the major powers. Seeing that many of the (not least prewar) units have only detail differences (single Bergmann or Suomi SMG) the slots would be better used to represent second line or less well equipped units. Thanks again for this useful exchange of information. I would like to repeat that on the whole the finnish OB is perhaps the most interesting of all, and it is obvious that great imagination and effort went into it.

_____________________________

Never hate your enemy.
It clouds your judgement.

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Post #: 15
- 10/18/2001 10:40:00 PM   
Jarkko

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Penetrator:
I have a bone or two to pick with the Finns. Overall, the OB is diverse and very interesting, especially regarding infantry. On the other hand it does seem a bit "rich" in that all the infantry units are very well equipped and with zero rarity. Finland was after all a country of extremely limited resources. I feel it would be more appropriate to include units of lesser capability but increase the rarity of the present units. I am particularly curious about the finnish satchel carges. These seem to have been available in enormous quantity. The picture of the "AT/Sachel C" unit shows a large, box like handgrenade. What is this thing? How effective was it and what was the availability? Also, some prewar units have the molotov, but one is led to understand it was "invented" during the winter war.
Then we come to the tanks. These are rather inaccurately represented in terms of availability. Take the Vickers 6 ton. This can be said to be the principal native Finnish tank. Finland had a total of 36 of these tanks, some had only machine guns, while the rest had the 37mm puteaux gun (same as the FT-17) except one (1) that was given a swedish 37mm gun. The latter is the only version to be found in the OB and with zero rarity! Also, later in the war the vickers tanks were renamed T-26E because they were maechanically the same tank as the T-26. In the OB we have a T-26E with russian armament. Speaking of the captured tanks, they have far too low rarity in the OB, lots of 1's or even 0's. In practice, captured tanks always should have very high rarity, not only because of small numbers but also difficulty of maintenance. Finally, has anyone made any effort to create the swedish army for SPWAW? I am more than a little disappointed that this militarily remarkable country has been completely left out of the SP series.
Well I am one of the guys of the team that made it. You now probably already know that satchel charges are available in large numbersfor a reason, they were used in huge quantities in reality also. Basically:
- During early Continuation War when there was shortage of at-rifles the reality was: use satchel charges
- During late Continuation War when at-rifles were too uneffective (and panzerfausts & panzerscrecks were not available) the reality was: use satchel charges The infantry is armed according the offial TO&E and only the most usual changes have been made to that. Yes, the troops in Finnish oob are all well-equipped indeed, but so are troops of all other countries also. And also many Finnish units were even better armed then the ones in the oob. You can reduce the amount of ammo from preferences and if you like to fight with less ammo. If we would have included all possible non-official TO&E variations of Finnish infantry the whole Finnish oob would include only infantry, because there would not have been room for for anything else so we only included the "official" versions of troops. If you like to have Finnish troops that are not so well equipped there is an oob-editor for modifying oob-files included with the game, but remember that very few armies were equally 100% that well equipped as they in the game, so unless you make them less-perfect also you probably would end up ruining game-balance. BTW: The units level of Finnish oob is totally full, if you want to include some new units (like less-well armed rifle squads) it would casting out some units that in the oob right now, which is a really bad idea (any previously made scenarios including units later cast out from oob would not work with that oob). Vickers 6 ton:
The gun + hull-SMG + coax-MG armed version is there for the reason. This was not so rare one as you think, by February 1940 Finns had already 13 of these ready and the rest were under work. T-26E is included also in the oob as Finns had over 20 of them. Captured T-26B was the most usual version (little bit over 40 used?) of these tanks in Finnish use. The whole Finnish T-26 inventory totaled more then 100 tanks. BTW: We had no room to include the most rarest T-26 variation in Finnish use: T-26 m 1940 (Soviet E-version with added armour), Finns had atleast 2 of these and they were used as command tanks of tank companies. The MG-armed version was never used in battle for a good reason: It was waiting to be armed with gun, there was a hole sized of mans head in front turret where the guns were later installed. The
37mm Puteaux armed version was also never used in battle for a good reason either: It was just a training version used in war games of summer 1939. Puteaux gun used in it was so weakly installed that it could only be used to shoot blanks, shooting live ammo from it would have had catastophical consequences.

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Post #: 16
- 10/18/2001 10:43:00 PM   
asgrrr

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 9/18/2001
From: Iceland
Status: offline 		About Sweden: There is plenty of room in the Norwegian OB, and the human quality ratings are probably not too far off. If anyone had a good source of information on the swedish army I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. One more thing I forgot to include in the last message: If someone says there is this and that wrong with an OB, don't reply that it can be changed in the editor. That is not the point and I have heard it too many times.

_____________________________

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It clouds your judgement.

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Post #: 17
- 10/19/2001 2:29:00 PM   
Jarkko

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Penetrator:
Thank you Jarrko for providing this valuable information. What I wrote on the Vickers 6 ton was taken from a book by B.T. White. Apparently his information is not as reliable as I thought.
But I have some further comments:
1) As I like to understand rarity, it reflects the absolute rarity of a piece of equipment within the armed forces of a given country, not relative to the availability of other similar equipment. Therefore, if a country would be represented in the game that only posessed a single tank throughout the war, that tank type would get a high rarity, even though it was the "most common" tank of that country.
2) The trouble with thrown grenades hitting the sides of tanks is common to all such weapons. Unless the designers have artificially increased the penetration of all such weapons (which may well be the case - the penetration of ordinary handgrenades does seem a bit much), then it would be unfair to give special treatment to the finnish "Kasapanos".
3)Finally, although no army in this period had 100% equipment, it has been my understanding that Finland (the same goes for many minor countries - I have made changes to the Polish OB along the same lines) had a considerably greater difficulty in equipping its troops than the major powers. Seeing that many of the (not least prewar) units have only detail differences (single Bergmann or Suomi SMG) the slots would be better used to represent second line or less well equipped units. Thanks again for this useful exchange of information. I would like to repeat that on the whole the finnish OB is perhaps the most interesting of all, and it is obvious that great imagination and effort went into it.
Well I am a Finn and I don't read foreign written books about Finnish armed forces in WWII unless I want to have a good laugh. Most foreign written books about the subject don't have a clue.
If you want a good book about Finnish armour I suggest "Suomalaiset panssarivaunut 1918-1997 /Finnish armored vehicles 1918-1997" by Esa Muikku and Jukka Purhonen. It is the best book about the subject available and most important parts in it are written also in english. However is out of print at the moment so finding it might be bit difficult. Publisher is selling it at:
http://www.apali.fi/Books/Armouredvehicles/www.armouredvehicles.html About other things:
1. The absolute rarity thing is a totally new thing and oob was done long before it. I don't know if anybody at Matrix has tried fixing it after that. The team that originally made it have not really existed for months anymore and Matrix has not kept connections to us. Anyway the tank ratity is not a large problem in Finnish oob as Finns didn't spread their armour all around. Basically all Finnish armour was concentrated into one tank battalion/armour brigade of the one and only armour brigade/armour division. If want to play an unit that you consider belonging to that armour brigade/division then you most certainly have the tank support available in the oob. If you want to play an unit that was not in that armour brigade/division you dont have armour support at all. Historically it was simple as that, on or off, no middle-ground in here. 2. Which version are you playing with? Armour penetration of hand grenades was lowered severely aroud version 6.01 or so. Now hand grenades are very uneffective against tanks just as they shuld be. Typical hand grenade had less then 200g of explosives (while largest Finnish satchel charges had 5-6kg) and was designed not to produce grenade fragments (while satchel charge had no that kind of structure), not penetrate armour. Occations where tanks were destroyed by single handgrenades (bundles were bit more effective) were extremely rare, on the other hand Finns destroyed hundreds of Soviet tanks with satchel charges, so there was a clear difference between effectiveness of these two in killing tanks. So nothing unfare in that, it just tries to reflect the real effectiveness or uneffectiveness of these two weapon types in killing tanks.
3. Yes and no. During Winter War (which lasted only about 3,5 months while Continuation War lasted about 3 years and Lapland War that lasted about 6 months or so) yes, during Continuation War no and also no during Lapland War. Example: During Continuation War there was always a serious shortage of at-guns but when Continuation War started Finns had all the at-guns (of the same type as used in Winter War already) in use with much larger numbers. Only way to show this well would be making these at-guns twice to oob, one versions with rarity "2" and other ones with rarity "0". But like I said there is no room left for that, all slots of oob:s units-level have already been filled. The large amounts of satchel charges and molotov cocktails appeared to Finnish as an emergency measure of trying to fix the lack of having enough at-guns and remained in use after that even when the at-guns shortage didn't exist no longer. Finns didn't have second line units that need to included. All infantry units were considered first line no matter their armament during Winter War and the later second line units served only at home-front so adding them into this type of game serves no purpose (they never fought at frontline). Try to understand this: If I would start including just all different weaponry variations of Finnish rifle squads I would need atleast 30 empty slots at units level of oob-structure and there are none free. Also: Removing any existing units from oob ruines all scenarios that include the removed unit - so removing existing units is very much a forbidden thing and extremely difficult to get through to official oob (I have tried a few time with no success and I have had very good sources to back up my case, thing which you seem to be lacking). As Matrix didn't agree I now have a oob-version of my own that have several improvements which Matrix refused to include. Different weapons have different ranges and HE-kill amounts so am not very willing to remove them, and even if I would reduce them there still is no enough room left. Not only did some Finnish units have sometimes less automatic weapons then in official oob, they also immediately took captured Soviet automatic and semi-automatic weapons to their own use. And unless you noticed there are also similarly armed ski units needed.
So there would be a huge large of variety in there. BTW: I would like all weapons that were typically thrown on top of tanks (hand grenade bundles, at-hand grenades, molotov cocktails...) of all nationalities to make their attack against top armour, unfortenately it is not possible with game-engine of SP:WAW.

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Post #: 18
- 10/19/2001 2:57:00 PM   
Jarkko

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Penetrator:
About Sweden: There is plenty of room in the Norwegian OB, and the human quality ratings are probably not too far off. If anyone had a good source of information on the swedish army I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. One more thing I forgot to include in the last message: If someone says there is this and that wrong with an OB, don't reply that it can be changed in the editor. That is not the point and I have heard it too many times.
Lets get few things straight: I don't work for Matrix at the moment. I was never payed anything for working them and I participated doing Finnish oob for them from the goodness of my heart, using my own time and money at the effort. I only suggested you that you could fix the things that you like to changed yourself because I don't think that you have much of a change of getting that kind of changes like you suggested done to official oob now, as it is full. And then you get offended from that advice - get real, there are not many around who could do such changes to Finnish oob and do them right. I for one am not going to spend my own time doing changes with which I don't agree. Specially with that "less-well armed" versions thing you have just about the same changes as snowball in hell getting it through to official oob as it would wreck just about all Finnish scenarios ever made. And considering the level of your sources even if you would get it through you still would not know which weapons Finns were lacking when and would probably end up with less-accurate version then the existing one. BTW: I do have all the needed info for making Swedish oob from 1939 (I needed them as background info for making the Swedish volunteer force so I gathered them) but after that last remark of yours I am not at all that certain about giving them to you.

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(in reply to asgrrr)
Post #: 19
- 10/22/2001 8:42:00 PM   
asgrrr

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 9/18/2001
From: Iceland
Status: offline 		I can see no reason for this indignation you are displaying Jarrko, and I will not discuss matters on such a personal level here. Even if my last remark was a bit tactless it was completely civilized. I enjoy putting my views on this game forward and hearing what others think. This particular conversation has been highly enlightening. I do not think I or anyone else should expect to receive snide or personal comments here, however wrong or ignorant they may be. Further, I was hoping to do some creative work that might benefit other players. If you have the resources, it is up to you what you do with them, I am not going to beg. I will not post to this topic again unless there is relevant input to respond to.

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Never hate your enemy.
It clouds your judgement.

(in reply to asgrrr)
Post #: 20
- 10/23/2001 7:10:00 PM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I´m from Sweden and I´d like to see some Swedeish troops in there. And I do apologize for the German troop movements in Sweden during the war, but I had nothing to do with it We did get some bombs tropped on us as a thank you note, although they say it was all a misstake...hmmm? And my fellow nordic guys: Kiss and make up so we can see some nerdish swedes get lost in the Russian winter! It was all looking so promising ´till you got personal... Have a good one guys

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(in reply to asgrrr)
Post #: 21
- 10/23/2001 9:07:00 PM   
asgrrr

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 9/18/2001
From: Iceland
Status: offline 		Like another nordic nerd said (Thorbjörn Egner), "All the animals in the woods must be friends". I wish things hadn't got so out of hand. I do know that I can come on a bit strong when I think I am right about something (or even when I think I might possibly not be wrong). I will undertake to moderate my tone in the future. I think it is worth it, if it means we can see swedes suffer!

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Never hate your enemy.
It clouds your judgement.

(in reply to asgrrr)
Post #: 22
- 10/24/2001 1:14:00 AM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		That´s the spirit Penetrator! But remember: Many of my best friends are Swedish...hell, I´m Swedish! You know what, I think we´re all a little Swedish around here Seriously though, it would be cool to see some Swedish troops in there. I´m sort of bias here, but we could right some of the wrongs, join in the crushing of the third reich. But on the other hand, those German fellows did have some cool equipment though... I think I´ll keep playing the German side, as long as Adolf keeps out of it that is!
Peace to all...except our enemy (He Who Hateth The Wargame, who ever that is)

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(in reply to asgrrr)
Post #: 23
- 10/24/2001 5:10:00 AM   
Red Baron

 

Posts: 423
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by pax27:
I´m from Sweden and I´d like to see some Swedeish troops in there. And I do apologize for the German troop movements in Sweden during the war, but I had nothing to do with it We did get some bombs tropped on us as a thank you note, although they say it was all a misstake...hmmm? And my fellow nordic guys: Kiss and make up so we can see some nerdish swedes get lost in the Russian winter! It was all looking so promising ´till you got personal... Have a good one guys
Hi There..
From another scandinavian to scandinavians..Lad os hellere dele en øl sammen ..
Sure i know the probs about doing big changes to the official OOB´s and for my part, i do not see any reason to do so. BUT, that shouldn´t frighten anyone to deal with the task of doing their own version of any OOB they like Out there in this great WAW community there is without any doubt a guy like you who just sit there waiting for that Argentine OOB or what ever The last 4-5 months i have been working on a custom Danish OOB (April. to Dec. 1940) useing the Norw. OOB space. Hope it soon will be ready, then it will be released on my site together with a "What if" campaign Ger. vs Denmark. Some "wise" scandinavian out there will without any doubt say.."That wasn´t a what if, that was real enough..!" Sure it was, but this What If will deal with the what if the danish gouverment hadn´t been so weak and teethless and had done what ever in it´s might to prepare the danish army for what was to come. Doing this work, collecting the sources and all the material needed to do such an OOB, has also made me realize that one has to cut here and there to squeeze in the most interesting units and weapons to make a balanced and workable OOB compared with the official one coming with WAW - And i surely know how much work there has been put into doing that OOB, working on the Mega Campaign Teams and continuesly ready with critisisem and new ideas to the OOB team, they just continued to work hard and was ready with new Versions before one had a chance to say OOB But resently i´v had a serious setback, - got attacked by a serious virus - who deleted much of my work. the backup rutine had grown too much rutine, so for a periode i´d just forgot to do it!;( Well, hope i´v learned the lesson this time....
Just my to cents (Kroner)
Regards..Michael. [ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Red Baron ]



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(in reply to asgrrr)
Post #: 24
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