RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!!

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!!

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RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 3:23:10 PM

j campbell

Posts: 283
Joined: 1/20/2001
From: Grosse Pointe, MI
Status: offline

funny that was just the strategy i was advocating in the other post-no i am wondering what resources their are in china vs what is to be gained outside of china and hence much longer lines of defence-needed to protect those resources so far from Honshu.

_____________________________

"the willow branch but bends beneath the snow"

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 91

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 3:53:42 PM

LargeSlowTarget

Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal
Why not forget China altogether and pull most of the troops out except what you need to hold Manchukuo? Then you can use them elsewhere against the more dangerous enemies?

Withdrawal from China was impossible without loss of face and therefore was unthinkable for the Japanese. It would have also been a total reversal of Japanese policies and imperialistic dreams. If the Japanese had been willing to give up their China plans, there would have been no reason to go to war with the more dangerous enemies. But they decided to go South in order to obtain the resources to finally finish off China. Giving up China simply wasn't a realistic option. So in WitP, withdrawing the CEA units from China should be charged with prohibitively high pp costs.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 4/25/2004 2:13:33 PM >

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 92

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 4:06:52 PM

Pascal_slith

Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Withdrawal from China was impossible without loss of face and therefore was unthinkable for the Japanese. It would have also been a total reversal of Japanese policies and imperialistic dreams. If the Japanese had been willig to give up their China plans, there would have been no reason to go to war with the more dangerous enemies. But they decided to go South in order to obtain the resources to finally finish off China. Giving up China simply wasn't a realistic option. So in WitP, withdrawing the CEA units from China should be charged with prohibitively high pp costs.

Sorry, LST, but I meant in the game. There are many ahistorical things I'd like to be able to do in WitP, as in UV, to see what the change may have engendered. Trying to pull out the US troops from the Philippines, the Brits and Aussies from Malaya and DEI, etc. would be one too. Using Jap subs in German-type wolfpacks against Allied sea lanes is another. Having a different mix of ships in the IJN at the start is another (fewer BB's, more CV's).

The political point system, and its sub-breakdown like the link you indicate above, should be one of those ON/OFF player choices.

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)

Post #: 93

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 4:23:59 PM

LargeSlowTarget

Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline

Agreed, those player choices you mentioned would satisfy different tastes of the 'historics' and the 'what ifs' .

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 4/25/2004 2:25:24 PM >

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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 94

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 4:27:19 PM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

Well - you need to keep more than 6000 assault points in the manchuko area at all times. If this drops below 6000 - the Russians get opportunistic and declare war. Game over.

You start a fair bit over 6000 but you acn't risk it.

The other thing you just can't risk, is the economic meltdown that the japs go into if you don't get oil FAST. Unfortunately this means that you've got to forget China and go for the SRA and the oil there ASAP. Then you've got to start shipping it - so you always have to do the SRA first.

Sometimes the allied player will do some stupid moves in china (consolidate all his troops into certain points) which can allow you to encircle, or bring up tons of arty and blow them to hell with repeated bombardments.

Raver did that in our alpha beta - but now he's grown wiser. He'll trade space for time in China, and when my line gets to big, he'll hit back (hopefully I can trap the troops at Canton for good and take them out of the OOB). There are resources in China - but too few and too far to really worry about (I only make the effort to take them to deny them to the chinese).

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 95

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 4:36:59 PM

Pascal_slith

Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

Well - you need to keep more than 6000 assault points in the manchuko area at all times. If this drops below 6000 - the Russians get opportunistic and declare war. Game over.

You start a fair bit over 6000 but you acn't risk it.

That's one of the ON/OFF player preferences I would like to see. As I've said elsewhere, given the demands of resisting the Germans, the Russians would not necessarily be able to spend the resources to declare war on Japan and invade Manchukuo if the garrison is smaller than 6000 assault points... In any case, it would be interesting if Russian invasion was not automatic...

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 96

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 4:40:45 PM

Rendova

Posts: 405
Joined: 2/28/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline

I read in this forum that the Soviet invasion isn't automatic, just if you drop below the 6000 number they start doing rolls every time to see if they invade...... Still A "The Russians are coming, the Russians are comming!!" on off toggle would be nice. IIRC PTO II had a factor for how the Germans were doing out west (radomly done) and this translated into how many assets the Soviets got.

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 97

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 5:53:24 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: j campbell

Luskan,

sorry if this has been covered before-perhaps never tried. If you harbor a large share of your resources from point one on can you subdue the chinese? The nice thing about WiTP to me is that the Japanese almost seem confined to their historical dilemma-need resources to defeat china so they go south to aquire them -this leads to overextension of their lines and wears down on their resources not to mention get s them embroiled with a vengeful uncompromising enemy with whom there is no negotiating.

Is it cost effective to go full force against the chinese initially then turn to the south or -as it seems by most AAR go for the easier kills on the ABDA early on and hope to resolve the China issue later.

thanks for your input,
john

Please note that this is EXACTLY what the Japanese had been doing since 1937. If they
couldn't manage it when China was their ONLY enemy, then there should be NO CHANCE
that they can pull it off when the rest of the world has joined in. If there is, the game is
BROKEN and worthless as a simulation.

(in reply to j campbell)

Post #: 98

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/25/2004 7:13:56 PM

j campbell

Posts: 283
Joined: 1/20/2001
From: Grosse Pointe, MI
Status: offline

Mike

true to some degree-the Japanese never went full force against china-their overall commander-Sugiyama ( i believe) kept thinking the next battle would be the last-this process went on again and again and again. they were trying to accomplish the task at hand with not nearly enough manpower and resources. he had told the emporer originally that it ( meaning the "China incident") would be resolved in a month. I doubt that they could have sustained the necessary oil and resources required to fulfill thier objectives-hence it would be more prudent-although with "loss of face" to pull back to Manchuko.

john

_____________________________

"the willow branch but bends beneath the snow"

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Post #: 99

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/26/2004 1:05:23 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

I am having some strange problems with my PC....the bloody thing keeps re-booting so I have to try and nut out what the problem is ****NOTE****This problem is NOT related to the Beta testing of WiTP ! In the meantime I am sitting at work today and so can still cast my pearls

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to j campbell)

Post #: 100

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/26/2004 1:10:25 AM

Raverdave

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Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
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Ok, for those of you who are thinking of pulling out of China think of this. If you DID pull troops out of China to help in other areas such as the SRA and Easten Pacific then you give the Allies a better chance of opening up bases closer to your SRA and even the Japanese mainland itself ! Yes two three and even five Divisions could be borrowed but that is about it.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 101

RE: An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!! - 4/26/2004 3:59:20 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

I like the idea of the option. Has to do with what scenario you pick.

And if a player conquers china without crippling japan instantly - well for most of us, we regard him as a brilliant player - not regard the simulation as broken.

Why can't the japs do better than historically? If the allied player does a poor job - conquering china would be long, and certainly your economy would suffer (not to mention the other front of the war suffering) but it would be possible. I certainly plan on out generalling Raver and removing all of china's resources (as the japs did historically - so that she becomes a major burden on the allied resources in india/burma/rangoon - as it was historically).
So far I'd say I'm a little behind schedule for invading, but doing a little better than historically.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 102

China - 4/26/2004 4:42:36 AM

mogami

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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, Japan in 1941 had what it wanted in China. What it could not get was peace. To this end Japan occupied Indo China to try to cut off outside supply. One of the conditions Japan presented to the USA was an eventual withdrawal from China once they had a puppet in place and their resources and markets secure. They also demanded outsiders stop suppling China. (Of course the USA rejected this and enacted the embargo.)

There was then and is in WITP an option for Japan to continue offensive operations. Because of my foreknowledge I elect to advance early in the war.
However I do not think that Japan can conquer China. Clear the rail line yes. Capture the nearest cities yes. But Japan does not have enough force in 1941-42 to knock out China. I don't even concur that Japan can afford to withdraw any more units from China.
I think Japan needs another 10 or 12 divisions to be secure with the new lines. And Japan does not want a war of attrition in China. The Chinese will have modern aircraft on hand in a few months (one of the reason I go as soon as I can) The AVG has an impact as soon as it enters combat. Other USAAF units will be arriving after a time and the Allies will set up a system of supply that will allow China to prepare an offensive where they choose after a period of stockpiling supply and troop movements. Japan cannot hope to match this all along the front so they have to prepare "fortified" cities with a reserve held in the rear close enough to react where needed. (constant recon of Chinese forward bases. is required)
The Chinese Army is massive if slow and cumbersome. It would be a mistake for the Japanese to wear themselves out advancing only to run into a well prepared Chinese force. Push them back early and then dig in. Keep the front as close to Japanese supply sources and far from Chinese supply sources. Japan has to conserve supply to fight the war with. China can provide supply to other points if it is not busy using it up fighting.
A war all along the Chinese front would require supply into China. Japan cannot afford to expend supply like this.

Even if China withdrew from the war totally this would not solve Japans supply problems and it would not free up that many land units. (They are much easier to supply in China then in the South Pacific. )

I don't see any miracles for Japn in China. I do see a quick road to disaster by over commiting to offensive operations there.
The Japanese player is trying to outlast the enemy. China can provide valuable extra supply if it is not wasted.

Had it been an option withdrawing from China would have prevented the war. However there was no realistic means for the Japanese to abandon a place they had spent 10 years, many lives and much wealth trying to subdue.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 4/25/2004 9:48:31 PM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 103

RE: China - 4/26/2004 5:19:40 AM

j campbell

Posts: 283
Joined: 1/20/2001
From: Grosse Pointe, MI
Status: offline

well put mogami.

I agree wholeheartedly-the japansese had invested too much sweat and blood in manchuria to let it all go. they owned china by day but by night they were in trouble-if they could get peace they would have and that in of itself would have probably prevented the Pacific war.

japan is really in a tough dilemma. one has to appreciate thier historical reality of a situation (even if it was brought about largely because of a few warmonging war council supreme commanders)

as the japanese player in WiTP i plan on trying to be most efficient with all resources and operations that i cn be. this is the only real way to survive i believe. you must strive to achieve the best "bang for your buck" in all areas.

it should not be that hard to overcome their historical achievements -seeing as how they performed so poorly after the fall of the PI. There is no 'winning" only not losing is what i hope to achieve.

_____________________________

"the willow branch but bends beneath the snow"

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 104

RE: China - 4/26/2004 10:55:38 AM

Pascal_slith

Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline

What is Japan's submarine building capacity if it's at maximum?

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

(in reply to j campbell)

Post #: 105

RE: China - 4/26/2004 3:46:39 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

OOooooo ! got my PC fixed so it is "Game On". Luskan is tearing out great swaths of real estate where ever he can. It is interesting to note the differance in playing styles between Luskan and Mogami. Luskan seems driven to grab as much south and as fast as he can which leaves you somewhat stunned, and I guess his playing style is in reaction to how he knows I will react. I am trying to save as much shipping as possibe and Luskan is setting up airfields by day three deep in the DEI in an attempt to cut off these fleeing ships.

Mogami on the other hand seems to march to the beat of his own drum. ( This is my first game with him). You can see the spring un-coilling and it is some what like watching the advancing ice sheet from the next ice age but in slow motion. Where as playing Luskan is like getting caught in an avalanche. there is nothing wrong with either option, but it is interesting to watch it all unfold.

Now as to my "new" tactic that I am employing against bananananana boy. When you first start the loooonnng campaign you have what at first seems like hundreds of AKs all over the PI and the DEI (more like 60 or so). I have in the past tried to form these up and steam them south in big TFs....well in one of the first AARs that Luskan and I had to darn near sunk the bloody lot. Ok So in the next game I had I sent them all off in individual TFs of only one ship...brilliant it worked well and caught ratbrain off guard and at least 90% got away. This time I reasi\oned well while I am sailing them south, they might as well load up supplies or fuel so as to prevent the jap from getting them when (and he will) take over the port/base. So there is the added bonus of not only stealing pass Luskan, but also knowing that the cargo will be put to good use in Oz. And if they do get sunk on the way...well that is just as good as Luskan sinking his own fuel/supplies

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 106

RE: China - 4/26/2004 3:55:24 PM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

I have no idea.

A new turn, and a new bunch of disappointments. My kates and betties added a few more stragglers to the sunk ship list but nothing notable - Raver has done an excellent job of protecting the hundreds of transports in and around the PI.

Fortunately my plans in the south island, and in china are proceeding as planned (and my hong kong troops made it to canton in time to saave the day.

However the big disappointment of the turn was my sub RO-63. I spent forever figuring out which routes raver's cvs would take (depending on their destinations) and have put many, many many of my subs to full speed to get into intercept position and wait for them. My sub was in position, Raver did as was expected . . . and my skipper screwed the pooch.

Dutch naval ops at Makassar this turn - should have seen it coming. He caught my small air combat group out of position and they weren't even sighted as they made their escape. My brave PGs perished to protect the transports (mostly). I will be getting some revenge on the dutch in the next few turns so stay tuned.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/14/41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 93,103

Japanese Ships
SS RO-63, hits 1, on fire

Allied Ships
DD Mahan
DD Porter
DD Flusser
DD Lamson
DD Drayton
CA Chicago
CV Lexington

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 110,69

Japanese Ships
SS I-172

Allied Ships
DD Allen
DD Litchfield
DD Chew
DD Schley
DD Ward

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Macassar at 30,69

Japanese Ships
PG Saiko Maru, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
PC Nichi Maru #1
PC Showa Maru #3, Shell hits 1, on fire
AK Hakkai Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
AK Havana Maru
AP Kiko Maru
AP Kimishima Maru
AP Koshin Maru
AK Kosin Maru
AP Kuretake Maru
AP Kyuma Maru
AK Kyusyu Maru
AK Liverpool Maru
AK Macassar Maru
AP Mikage Maru #20
AK Milan Maru
AP Miyadono Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Yamafuku Maru
AK Yoneyama Maru
AK Fumishima Maru
AK Tatsufuku Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AK Tsurugisan Maru
AK Sensan Maru
AK Myoho Maru
AK Momoha Maru
AK Shoko Maru
AK Katsurahama Maru
AK Ryotoku Maru
AK Konei Maru
AK Hitora Maru
AK Higari Maru
AK Genmei Maru
AK Hidaka Maru
AK Raizan Maru
AK Anbo Maru
AK Kosho Maru
AK Yamamiya Maru
AK Taiyu Maru, Shell hits 8, on fire
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CL De Ruyter
DD Banckert
DD Witte de With
DD Kortenaer
DD Piet Hein

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 44 troops unloading over beach at Kuantan, 24,47

Coastal Guns at Kuantan, 24,47, firing at TF 44
TF 44 troops unloading over beach at Kuantan, 24,47

1152 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
215 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 99,89

Japanese Ships
SS I-4

Allied Ships
AP Hugh L. Scott
CA Louisville

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
Brewster 339D x 1
Hudson I x 3

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
Brewster 339D: 2 destroyed
Hudson I: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Vigan , at 44,49

Allied aircraft
P-26A x 5
P-36A Mohawk x 18

Allied aircraft losses
P-36A Mohawk: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P-36A Mohawk strafing at 100 feet
5 x P-26A strafing at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on 39th Chinese Corps, at 43,41

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 5
Ki-51 Sonia x 19
Ki-15 Babs x 1

no losses

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Kuantan at 24,47

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 3

no losses

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 48,60

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 12
A6M2 Zero x 1

Allied aircraft
B-17C Fortress x 1

no losses

no losses

Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Kuantan at 24,47

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 3

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Haguro Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Kuantan at 24,47

Allied aircraft
Wirraway x 3

no losses

Japanese Ships
AK Akagane Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Vigan at 44,49

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 7
P-40E Warhawk x 9
B-17C Fortress x 3

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Chojun Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 37,60

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9

no losses

Allied Ships
AO Trinity

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Tacloban at 44,58

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 27
E13A1 Jake x 8

no losses

Allied Ships
AK Kanlaon II, Bomb hits 17, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x E13A1 Jake bombing at 2000 feet
9 x B5N Kate bombing at 15000 feet
4 x E13A1 Jake bombing at 2000 feet
9 x B5N Kate bombing at 15000 feet
9 x B5N Kate bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Alor Star , at 24,44

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 16
Ki-21 Sally x 13
Ki-48 Lily x 32

no losses

Allied ground losses:
94 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
21 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Tuguegarao , at 46,50

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
Ki-30 Ann x 28

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
28 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Khota Bharu at 24,45

Allied aircraft
Wirraway x 4

no losses

Japanese Ships
CL Sendai

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Khota Bharu at 24,45

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 6

no losses

Japanese Ships
DD Kari

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Legaspi at 44,55

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 5
P-40E Warhawk x 9
B-17C Fortress x 3

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Ryoyu Maru #21

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 39,66

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Pope, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Vigan at 44,49

Japanese Ships
DD Fumizuki
DD Matsukaze
DD Asakaze
DD Nagatsuki
DD Satsuki
CA Maya
DD Minazuki
DD Samidare
DD Yudachi
DD Harusame
DD Murasame
DD Asagumo
DD Minegumo
DD Natsugumo

Allied Ships
SS Saury

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,37

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 22646 troops, 321 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 3230 troops, 3 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 528 to 1

Allied ground losses:
210 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 66880 troops, 797 guns, 23 vehicles

Defending force 45635 troops, 202 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
134 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Cotabato

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2820 troops, 14 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 3690 troops, 34 guns, 7 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese ground losses:
217 casualties reported
Guns lost 9

Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Yenen

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 69924 troops, 693 guns, 12 vehicles

Defending force 27575 troops, 143 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese ground losses:
1202 casualties reported
Guns lost 36

Allied ground losses:
327 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Alor Star

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 19027 troops, 276 guns, 7 vehicles

Defending force 7656 troops, 55 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 1

Japanese ground losses:
221 casualties reported
Guns lost 6
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
49 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 25,46

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 19280 troops, 247 guns, 14 vehicles

Defending force 4470 troops, 24 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 6 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
380 casualties reported
Guns lost 15
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
76 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 6427 troops, 17 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 92322 troops, 797 guns, 23 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied ground losses:
477 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kuantan

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 2903 troops, 24 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 4531 troops, 21 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
115 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Allied ground losses:
160 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Alor Star

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 5707 troops, 50 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 18692 troops, 265 guns, 6 vehicles

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 107

RE: China - 4/26/2004 5:54:44 PM

Pascal_slith

Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline

Why the Allied Deliberate Attack at Canton?

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 108

RE: China - 4/27/2004 12:56:59 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Canton is a somewhat exposed city two hexs north of Hong Kong and during the first moves of the game it is very exposed as the main IJN units are busy attacking Hong Kong. It is just too much of a good target to pass up. However, in my case Luskan, blackhearted barstard that he us) took Honk Kong much faster than I expected and was able to then rush his troops back north. My Deliberate attack was a last swing, but it is doomed

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 109

Pace of operations. - 4/27/2004 1:26:57 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, I think one major difference between Luskan and my operations is I did not use the extended move on turn 1 to land on enemy bases. What he can do one turn 1 requires around a week for me even if I target the exact same bases. (I do not load the TF on Dec 7)
I have the piano hoisted now I just need to coax Raver into standing beneath it.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 4/26/2004 6:29:26 PM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 110

RE: Pace of operations. - 4/27/2004 1:40:31 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Simply pour a small pile of roadrunner bird seed and then stick a sign reading "Free Fud" in it.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 111

RE: Pace of operations. - 4/27/2004 1:48:10 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, Birdseed? really

You mean the case of cold beer won't work?

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 112

RE: Pace of operations. - 4/27/2004 5:41:32 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

American beer no matter how cold, just won't work I'm afraid (note - this is a professional opinion and not a personal one - happen to work for one of Oz's "beer" giants - although my actual job has pretty little to do with beer).

Now this turn I spent ages fixed up my economy. Fortunately, the first large tf of lovely yummy oil has arrived in the home islands - and it is a big one. This will keep my economy rolling along for a few more weeks, as I streamline my aircraft and engine production (basically I'm phasing out less mainstream aircraft and the nate, and I'm gearing up the r and d for the a6m3, g4m2, jill and judy. I converted all of the nell production and nate production (quite a lot of wasted production on nates, while the nells have plenty in the pool and are soon to be upgraded anyway) to production of the present model of betty, the g4m1.

I don't have very many betties in the pool (the price of the early port attacks) but I'm hoping in a coulpe of months I will have built them up enough that I can manually go around my nell squadrons and upgrade them to betties - all except 1 nell squadron which will remain nells until I use all of the nells in the pool up (will use them as long range ASW).

Kido Butai has spent a day in port, has refuelled and replenished, and is now on its way to strike at Raver again - who knows where? My troops at Yenen outnumber the enemy (with more reinforcements on the way) however the new urban warfare rules make this a slow conquest. However there is little Raver can do up here but watch me slowly grind his troops to dust.

At Kuantan my little invasion has done fairly well (CD battery was bloody accurate - plenty of messed up troops and transports to deal with) reducing the fort size - I've got two mixed brigades and a whole division from Khota Bharu arriving in the next two days to finish the job. Well done to the naval gds units I sent in - especially after being torpedoed by one of Raver's subs on the way in two turns ago. Alor star grinds on slowly - but am hoping to cut them off soon enough.

Last turn my tank regiment stole victoria's point (no big deal) and the garrison I assigned of one cd unit and small inf unit are almost there too. This turn my troops snatched Tavoy, which I'm thrilled to say had over 23000 supplies in it. My troops at Tavoy will be resting there for a few days as a result, before continuing on up the coast (the tavoy garrison should arrive before they leave with any luck - although there are some trapped allied units the garrison will need to overrun on the way.

In PI, Raver's supply gambit caught me napping. Vigan and Aparri landing zones both lacked supply - although that has now been fixed. With extra troops landing at Vigan this turn, and my troops advancing to Tugerarao (sp) to face Raver's blockade force there, the action in this region of the PI is going to hot up. Of course, I can only encourage the way Raver is starving his own troops by stealing their supply. Makes my job easier - especially as my troops begin their push north from Naga.

In the south, the enemy lost Cotabato and is about to loose Cagayan - the southern island will soon be completely under my control - the best part of course is the way the aviation unit at Davao with betties and zeros and ASW float planes and even a few spare kates has prevented Raver's exodus from Manila. My southern island invasion has proceeded muich much better than in the north or even malaya (where I have lumps of troops assigned to objectives, rather than individual units with objectives etc). All the small inf (all less than 100 assault points each) garrison units are almost in place, the cd units are en route - I already have more than enough aviation support and supply and soon it will be time to take the large INF unit off the island (has been recouping since the initial landing) and assigning it elsewhere - probably Tarakan, balikpapan and Samarinda(?).

I also have surplus troops at makaassar and Kendari. A few ships in there will lift off those extra troops sooner or later - more than enough to smash Menado's better than average defences.

It is probably no secret that my small cv group (not the tiny one off the PI) has sailed several turns ago - on their way to find and sink any shipping west or southwest of the DEI and Malaya. If I'm lucky, I'll sink transports with fleeing australian units aboard. Maybe even catch a few of Raver's inbound indians (although he is probably shipping them to Rangoon - lets face it).

I have one or two more "surprising" lung invasions planned, but mostly from here on in I will take it slow and steady, slowly engulfing the SRA base by base, bit by bit. I won't be able to prevent raver's evacuating many many troops (especially those all important hq units around the place) as he uses PP points to reassign and evac them, but I hope to cull many inf and base forces in and around the place.

Also I have decided to invade san francisco - I have despatched the newly formed, elite Banana Guard for this task. God's (Hirohitos?) speed to them!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/15/41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 25,45

Japanese Ships
AP Ryugi Maru
AP Daifuku Maru
PC Ch 7
PG Tatsumiya Maru
MSW W.2

Allied Ships
SS KXIII, hits 5, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
Brewster 339D x 3
Hudson I x 3

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 5 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Vigan , at 44,49

Allied aircraft
P-26A x 5
P-36A Mohawk x 18

Allied aircraft losses
P-36A Mohawk: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x P-36A Mohawk strafing at 100 feet
5 x P-26A strafing at 100 feet
2 x P-36A Mohawk strafing at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on 84th Chinese Corps, at 43,41

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 4
Ki-51 Sonia x 19
Ki-15 Babs x 1

no losses

Allied ground losses:
25 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 48,53

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 15
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 4
B-17C Fortress x 3

no losses

no losses

Japanese Ships
CVE Hosho

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Khota Bharu at 24,45

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 6

no losses

Japanese Ships
DD Isonami

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 47,60

Allied aircraft
B-17C Fortress x 1

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Kisogawa Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 26,47

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3

no losses

Japanese Ships
AK Kinka Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 27,49

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 6
Buffalo I x 17
Blenheim IV x 3
Hudson I x 3

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
Blenheim IV: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
BB Ise

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
1 x Swordfish bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Hudson I bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Swordfish bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 27,49

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 7

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 48,53

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 15
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 4
B-17C Fortress x 3

no losses

no losses

Japanese Ships
CVE Taiyo

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Kuantan at 24,47

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 2
Buffalo I x 13
Vildebeest IV x 9
Blenheim I x 3
Blenheim IV x 3

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 2 destroyed
Vildebeest IV: 2 damaged
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
CA Mikuma

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
1 x Vildebeest IV bombing at 5000 feet
1 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Vildebeest IV bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Vildebeest IV bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 61,84

Allied aircraft
Wirraway x 11

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Marsue Maru
AP Monji Maru
PG Shoei Maru
PC Ch 30

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Kuantan at 24,47

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 2

no losses

Japanese Ships
AK Tetsuzan Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Kuantan at 24,47

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 7

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Kaiko Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Blenheim I bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 28,47

Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 2

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Enju Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Hudson I bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 25,45

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 3

no losses

Japanese Ships
AK Tatebu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
38 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Swordfish bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Naga at 44,54

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 27
E13A1 Jake x 8

no losses

Allied Ships
TK Manatawny, Bomb hits 20, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x E13A1 Jake bombing at 2000 feet
9 x B5N Kate bombing at 15000 feet
4 x E13A1 Jake bombing at 2000 feet
9 x B5N Kate bombing at 15000 feet
9 x B5N Kate bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 30,68

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
MSW Tanager, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Pearl Harbor at 112,68

Japanese Ships
SS I-2, hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Allen
DD Litchfield
DD Chew
DD Schley
DD Ward

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kuantan

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 4471 troops, 19 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 3264 troops, 18 guns, 3 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 3

Japanese ground losses:
96 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
175 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 67302 troops, 806 guns, 23 vehicles

Defending force 7283 troops, 44 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
165 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Cotabato

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 6625 troops, 31 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 3623 troops, 33 guns, 7 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 8 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Cotabato base !!!

Japanese ground losses:
121 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
77 casualties reported
Guns lost 7
Vehicles lost 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Cagayan

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1358 troops, 9 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1023 troops, 8 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Yenen

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 68589 troops, 653 guns, 12 vehicles

Defending force 26837 troops, 140 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese ground losses:
1013 casualties reported
Guns lost 25

Allied ground losses:
568 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 21717 troops, 249 guns, 17 vehicles

Defending force 918 troops, 8 guns, 2 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 286 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Tavoy base !!!

Allied ground losses:
165 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Alor Star

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 18725 troops, 268 guns, 6 vehicles

Defending force 7622 troops, 53 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese ground losses:
849 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
Vehicles lost 2

Allied ground losses:
85 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Alor Star

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 5736 troops, 52 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 17592 troops, 234 guns, 2 vehicles

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 113

RE: Pace of operations. - 4/27/2004 5:46:08 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, I drink Pilsner Urquell.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 114

RE: Pace of operations. - 4/27/2004 5:49:56 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

American beer is good, if it is both cold AND free.

Like I am fond of pointing out, Guinness has less calories and carbs than any non light American beer, with twice the nutritional value and taste.

Guinness for Strength!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

American beer no matter how cold, just won't work I'm afraid (note - this is a professional opinion and not a personal one - happen to work for one of Oz's "beer" giants - although my actual job has pretty little to do with beer).
[snip]

< Message edited by denisonh -- 4/26/2004 10:51:39 PM >

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 115

Moving supplies - 4/27/2004 11:42:22 AM

Pascal_slith

Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline

Hi guys,

a quick question. Can you move supply around on roads? Say I have a major port base with lots of supply and I want to move it to a location along a road away from it. Can I now move this supply manually (with an option to make it automatic)?

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 116

RE: Moving supplies - 4/27/2004 1:15:32 PM

DoomedMantis

Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

road supply is abstracted and moves it on a needs basis (ie if moving resources to indutry), if the supply is there, then 2x what is necessary will be moved to the base.

_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

- Shakespeare

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 117

RE: Moving supplies - 4/27/2004 3:33:58 PM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

Well in my other PBEM Doomed was crazy enough tos tray within 5 hexes of kwajalein and my betties launched and put 5 torps through the enterprise (did cost me almost 30 betties).

In this game, things got a bit slower, but are still progressing. The seige at Yenen continues, while i have cleansed Canton of Raver's infection. Also, things at Kuantan are coming to a close, not to mention my continued conquest of the southern P.I. is rolling along.

Unfortunately Raver's wirraways spotted my transports on their run into Rabaul - mores the pity but I think he knew they were coming.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to DoomedMantis)

Post #: 118

Me no understand... - 4/28/2004 12:10:56 AM

Greyshaft

Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

Ground combat at Cagayan

Japanese Shock attack
Attacking force 1358 troops, 9 guns, 0 vehicles
Defending force 1023 troops, 8 guns, 4 vehicles
Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 2)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported

How the Halibut did the Japanese manage to reduce a Fort Level 2 down to Fort Level 0 when they only had an advantage of c.30% in manpower and c.12% in artillery? Were the allies so busy performing maintenance on their 4 vehicles that they didn't notice the Japanese sappers blowing up the barbed wire?

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 119

RE: Me no understand... - 4/28/2004 12:17:07 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

How the Halibut did the Japanese manage to reduce a Fort Level 2 down to Fort Level 0 when they only had an advantage of c.30% in manpower and c.12% in artillery? Were the allies so busy performing maintenance on their 4 vehicles that they didn't notice the Japanese sappers blowing up the barbed wire?

You need to be careful there ... I could have 400,000 rear area troops in a hex and get attacked by 20,000 COMBAT troops and loose in 1 turn.

The numbers only tell half the story. They do not give you a breakdown of what types of troops were there.

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 120

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