Surface Combat

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Surface Combat

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Surface Combat

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Surface Combat - 5/8/2004 6:09:32 PM

scorryuk

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

Hi, playing scen 16 and tried unsuccessfully to stop Gili landing. Had 4 subs in and around hex and 2 surface TF`s few hexes south. Made successful night attack during next turn (though troops already ashore!) and sunk half of fleet without a scratch. Withdrew in morning to avoid LBA attack from Rab. Expected it to be piece of cake to finish enemy TF off in next turn since 2 ships in it were burning and probably limping along at single figure speed. Sent my TF north across his probable escape route but with react to enemy on nothing happened. At end of turn I was on hex east of enemy. How could it not have engaged!! subs and aircraft should have be tracking fleet. How hard can it be when they are no fire! And at very least what about radar? Would assume that combat would have took place had I ended turn with my TF on same hex as enemy. But isn`t this slightly unfair. Should my TF had reacted?

Post #: 1

RE: Surface Combat - 5/9/2004 7:58:43 AM

Maserati

Posts: 33
Joined: 4/6/2004
Status: offline

In your specific case I suspect the AI may have scuttled the most severely damaged ships, the survivors would then have been moving fast enough to have a chance of getting outside your search area. A key quirk of this game is how Surface Combat TFs react - they pretty much only do that to defend a base from bombardment. Interception by TFs seems very "gamey" to me and I hope it gets some attention in WitP. Still, radar was in its infancy and air search was chancey in poor weather. It's not that easy to regain contact.

I can't think of any historical examples where a TF that had broken off was chased down and killed. The closest is the Bismark operation, and that had the advantage of a damaged ship heading for a known destination. In that even it's fairly easy to put a TF in the hex the quarry will end up in. Surface combat is very reliable if two TFs enter the same hex.

(in reply to scorryuk)

Post #: 2

RE: Surface Combat - 5/9/2004 6:07:41 PM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scorryuk

Hi, playing scen 16 and tried unsuccessfully to stop Gili landing. Had 4 subs in and around hex and 2 surface TF`s few hexes south. Made successful night attack during next turn (though troops already ashore!) and sunk half of fleet without a scratch. Withdrew in morning to avoid LBA attack from Rab. Expected it to be piece of cake to finish enemy TF off in next turn since 2 ships in it were burning and probably limping along at single figure speed. Sent my TF north across his probable escape route but with react to enemy on nothing happened. At end of turn I was on hex east of enemy. How could it not have engaged!! subs and aircraft should have be tracking fleet. How hard can it be when they are no fire! And at very least what about radar? Would assume that combat would have took place had I ended turn with my TF on same hex as enemy. But isn`t this slightly unfair. Should my TF had reacted?

same thing Gunichi Mikawa did just after the landings on the canal in 42

but he didnt finish the job lol

he withdrew cuz he was wrried about air attack

but he didnt know that fletcher had withdrawn his carriers

so the transports survived, as did r guadalcanal campaign

_____________________________

(in reply to scorryuk)

Post #: 3

RE: Surface Combat - 5/9/2004 6:14:53 PM

scorryuk

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maserati

In your specific case I suspect the AI may have scuttled the most severely damaged ships, the survivors would then have been moving fast enough to have a chance of getting outside your search area. A key quirk of this game is how Surface Combat TFs react - they pretty much only do that to defend a base from bombardment. Interception by TFs seems very "gamey" to me and I hope it gets some attention in WitP. Still, radar was in its infancy and air search was chancey in poor weather. It's not that easy to regain contact.

I can't think of any historical examples where a TF that had broken off was chased down and killed. The closest is the Bismark operation, and that had the advantage of a damaged ship heading for a known destination. In that even it's fairly easy to put a TF in the hex the quarry will end up in. Surface combat is very reliable if two TFs enter the same hex.

Made contact following 2 turns, course was easy to follow and enemy convoy only travelled 2-3 hexes per turn. Wasn`t till damaged AP sunk that it started to really move. U can understand how I felt cheated at putting my TF in its path and no attack!

(in reply to Maserati)

Post #: 4

RE: Surface Combat - 5/9/2004 7:11:40 PM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

In UV surface combat will only occur if the opposing TFs end either their night movement or day movement in the same hex. React to Enemy only happens if the enemy is attacking a friendly base. I understand that this has been improved for WITP, but am waiting to see if that is indeed so. The good news is that 2by3 has told us they intend to patch UV up to WITP standards once they've got the bugs (or most of them) worked out of the latter.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to scorryuk)

Post #: 5

RE: Surface Combat - 5/9/2004 9:01:49 PM

AmiralLaurent

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maserati

I can't think of any historical examples where a TF that had broken off was chased down and killed.

The CV Hornet off Solomons is a good example. Damaged by air action, scuttling attempt failed and she was sunk by the Japanese fleet in the following night.

Same for the battle of Cape Matapan in Meditteranean, a heavy cruiser was crippled by torpedo, during the next night the British BB close to the kill and surprise her and the ships assisiting her: result 3 CA and 2 DD sunk.

At the end of the Battle of Leyte Gulf, during the night of 25th-26th, Allied surface ships engaged both remains of IJN CV TF and of Kurita's TF (in the latter, not damaged ships but DD sailing with the survivors of the scuttled CA).

That is only for major battles. You can find some minors one in the Philipinnes campains or for Japanese chasing cripples in the 1942 year.

(in reply to Maserati)

Post #: 6

RE: Surface Combat - 5/12/2004 1:18:46 PM

scorryuk

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

In UV surface combat will only occur if the opposing TFs end either their night movement or day movement in the same hex. React to Enemy only happens if the enemy is attacking a friendly base. I understand that this has been improved for WITP, but am waiting to see if that is indeed so. The good news is that 2by3 has told us they intend to patch UV up to WITP standards once they've got the bugs (or most of them) worked out of the latter.

Any tips on predicting where enemy TF will end it`s turn? think I read somewhere about being about to tell how many hexes a TF will move in turn by its speed or something. Would really help my surface combat to know roughly where TF will end turn.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 7

RE: Surface Combat - 5/12/2004 9:33:57 PM

barbarrossa

Posts: 359
Joined: 3/25/2004
From: Shangri-La
Status: offline

I wish you could "Scharnhorst and Gniesenau" the transports streaming from Briz to PM; I tried with Nachi and Naka and it won't work!

Bummer.

Perhaps if we whine we can make something happen

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 8

RE: Surface Combat - 5/13/2004 12:23:25 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

lol

good idea

waaa waa waaa waaa!

please fix it

it really sux

waaa waa waaa

_____________________________

(in reply to barbarrossa)

Post #: 9

RE: Surface Combat - 5/13/2004 12:32:44 AM

scorryuk

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

? None the wiser!! If I know enemy TF`s target (i.e Gil or PM) and have good intel watching enemy fleet there has to be a set figure somewhere about moving "X" amount of hexes. If I know direction it can narrow down to 3 or 4 hexex which one it will end turn on assuming full speed is maintained.

(in reply to marky)

Post #: 10

RE: Surface Combat - 5/13/2004 3:27:03 PM

scorryuk

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

Be careful what u wish for.... I wanted surface combat and I got it - 3 times in one night! Had spotted enemy fleet near Gili. Comprised of 2 BB, 2CA,1CL and 3DD. My nearest TF of 2CA and 4DD was clearly no match (rest of fleet in for repairs following earlier engagement of Gili) and so decided to retreat to PM knowing full well this was enemies probable target. Figured there would be a skirmish, some damage on both sides and any damaged Jap ships would slow down rest so that LBA could do their stuff. Sure enough enemy TF attacks, they fight and on balance I come out slighly ahead on damage stakes. But then in same turn my TF initiates suprise attack on Japs. This time damage in more even but superior enemy numbers start to tell. engagement ends with all my ships damaged but intact. Figure they can be repaired and live to fight another day. That is until Jap fleet launches it`s own suprise attack, still in same turn. This time my fleet is sunk outright. No survivors (do I lose TF commander then??). Fair enough, thats war, my LBA will get them in morning. Except they don`t . There is a damaged DD one hex outside PM which 90% of my LBA proceed to attack. And then again. Meanwhile the sighted main fleet 3 hexes south of Gili is all but ignored except for a few 3 plane raids by level bombers. No hits, no suprise.

(in reply to scorryuk)

Post #: 11

RE: Surface Combat - 5/13/2004 11:21:30 PM

AmiralLaurent

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scorryuk

Figured there would be a skirmish, some damage on both sides and any damaged Jap ships would slow down rest so that LBA could do their stuff.

If you want only to skirmish, you have to choose a careful admiral.

As for the TF commander, he may have been killed if all ships of the TF have been sunk but there is a chance he survived on a raft or something. Admiral are rather hard to kill in UV compared to real world (where several were killed when their flagship was hit and not sunk). Also you will not see Yamaguchi stay aboard his sinking ship and died after a defeat.

(in reply to scorryuk)

Post #: 12

RE: Surface Combat - 5/16/2004 5:18:09 PM

scorryuk

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

Right what do you make of this. Its 1st week of June in scen 16, I`m US. Jap carrier fleet just cruised past Gili and ended up 4 hexes away from PM. Took 2 turns to get there and LBA never attacked once. Weather partly cloudy, all fighters set to escort, airbase size 8, 40 spare avaition support points, 3 sqds on naval search. Even austrialian LBA didn`t attack! And then to cap it all I send my surface fleet to engage and it sails right by with no engagement. 4 cruisers, 6 DD`s. I sent them East from PM and they passed through same Hex as Jap TF during night to end up 4 hexes east of them. How can this be??? And then when Jap carriers decide to head back and I send my SF west to engage they again pass through same Hex without engagement!!! Have they bribed my forces, or have they just become conscienous objectors!

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)

Post #: 13

RE: Surface Combat - 5/17/2004 3:00:18 PM

barbarrossa

Posts: 359
Joined: 3/25/2004
From: Shangri-La
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scorryuk

Right what do you make of this. Its 1st week of June in scen 16, I`m US. Jap carrier fleet just cruised past Gili and ended up 4 hexes away from PM. Took 2 turns to get there and LBA never attacked once. Weather partly cloudy, all fighters set to escort, airbase size 8, 40 spare avaition support points, 3 sqds on naval search. Even austrialian LBA didn`t attack! And then to cap it all I send my surface fleet to engage and it sails right by with no engagement. 4 cruisers, 6 DD`s. I sent them East from PM and they passed through same Hex as Jap TF during night to end up 4 hexes east of them. How can this be??? And then when Jap carriers decide to head back and I send my SF west to engage they again pass through same Hex without engagement!!! Have they bribed my forces, or have they just become conscienous objectors!

Yeah, there's something funky about the LBA.

I've had IJN ships unloading at Gilli and the 13th BS (especially)wants to hit Kavieng! No one else flies. Wassup wit dat?!

But of course it's the complete opposite when you play as the Japanese

(in reply to scorryuk)

Post #: 14

RE: Surface Combat - 5/19/2004 12:37:22 AM

AmiralLaurent

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scorryuk

Right what do you make of this. Its 1st week of June in scen 16, I`m US. Jap carrier fleet just cruised past Gili and ended up 4 hexes away from PM. Took 2 turns to get there and LBA never attacked once. Weather partly cloudy, all fighters set to escort, airbase size 8, 40 spare avaition support points, 3 sqds on naval search. Even austrialian LBA didn`t attack! And then to cap it all I send my surface fleet to engage and it sails right by with no engagement. 4 cruisers, 6 DD`s. I sent them East from PM and they passed through same Hex as Jap TF during night to end up 4 hexes east of them. How can this be??? And then when Jap carriers decide to head back and I send my SF west to engage they again pass through same Hex without engagement!!! Have they bribed my forces, or have they just become conscienous objectors!

Well your LBA probably thought it would be suicide to attack the IJN CV TF. And so don't fly. How many fighters do you have in PM ? In June 1942, you are probably facing 4 CV and 1 CVL, if not more. Also Allied LBA will be almost of no use against an undamaged warship in the first month, as experience is too low.

As for the surface engagement, only TF ending a movement phase (night or day) will engage in battle.
So if you have a TF sitting in Basilaki and IJN ships are in Gili Gili and return to Rabaul, they will get trough Basilaki hex but if their speed is more than one, they will end their move more north and there will be no battle.
Even if two TF are in the same hex at the end of the phase, there is also a chance no battle occurs, especially at night in bad weather.
Intercept of CV TF with surface fleet is very difficult matter and only luck can help.

(in reply to scorryuk)

Post #: 15

RE: Surface Combat - 5/19/2004 1:15:54 PM

scorryuk

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline

Still felt wrong that they should escape all my forces unscatched. And Scorry`s Law dictates that 2 wrongs make a right so I reloaded and ended surface TF`s turn on enemy CV, Ha Ha. Just to see what happens. Credit to game for historical accuracy as escort ships provided cover to allow 2 CVs to escape. Interestingly LBA this time decided to attack. Took quite a punishment from Flak (though most attack attitudes under 6,000 to increase chances of hit) and managed to hit CVL with Beaufort torp. It had to transfer it`s aircaft to Gili and limp away at 3 hexes per turn but somehow manage to avoid being attacked again and eventually just vanished.!

Frustrating game at times but still highly addictive.

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)

Post #: 16