Early British Forces or "How I got my butt handed to me by the Japanese"

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Early British Forces or "How I got my butt handed to me by the Japanese"

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Early British Forces or "How I got my butt handed ... - 5/13/2004 10:00:26 PM

TheChin

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/20/2001
From: Cleveland,OH,USA
Status: offline

I decided to play the long WWII campaign with the British. I have already played it through with the U.S., Germans and Japanese. Since I just came off a good pummeling as the Bristish Vs. the Germans in PBEM, I decided that my knowledge of UK forces and the resulting tactics was sorely lacking. The very first battle (I started the campaign in '39) I found out just how badly my skills as a UK Colonel were. After picking my sizable force and deploying, I was soon fending off a sea of human antagonists

. That's when I came to the grim realisation that early UK tanks were very role-oriented and most of my tanks had only AP rounds. Only the paltry few that were included in the Troop with a CS desiginator had any HE capability. The AP armed tanks did come with A(1)(uno) MG. Which I can say have been firing constantly and without pause

. The Japanese came with about 4 tanks and 2 rail cars, which were taken out by my P-39's before my tanks even got a good shot. I also bought some AT guns with my support points, which also didn't bring any HE to the front with them and they have been largely useless, other than supplying fodder for the occasional 150mm artillery barrages I receive. If it wasn't for the Bofors AA I bought, I'd have been run over a long time ago. But man, those Bofors can eat up those big Infantry squads. Which brings me to another "challenge", my British rifle squads are typically 8-9 guys (I turned on the realistic squad setting), while the Japanese squads are naturally the size of whole platoons (I exaggerate, but it sure seems that way) and they hardly ever turn tail, they just keep climbing over their dead getting one hex closer every turn to my positions. I'm not done yet with the battle, but I think I'll be lucky to get a draw.

One bright note, I got a group of Stuart III/IV's behind the enemy horde and wiped out his 81mm mortor cluster. And as a added bonus, right after a "Stuart II/IV squashed 81mm Mortar Squad" during a juicy overrun, an inexperienced aid in the Japanese HQ unit took a ill-advised OpFire from a nearby treeline

. Well, needless to say, 2 Stuarts with 6 MG's between them and the Japanese force lost it's head. Unfortunately, unlike a rational enemy, losing the HQ doesn't seem to have much effect on their morale and the tide continues to come in.

_____________________________

"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"

Post #: 1

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/13/2004 10:25:35 PM

Voriax

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
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Stuarts and P-39's in '39???? Which oob set you are using?

Btw, the british AA tanks (or tankettes) are actually pretty good in fending off these human wave assaults.

Voriax

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Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 2

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/13/2004 10:33:36 PM

TheChin

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/20/2001
From: Cleveland,OH,USA
Status: offline

I'm just using 8.1. Maybe I should double check the date, I was absolutely sure I picked 39, but maybe something happened. If that's the case, did the British pretty much stick to the AP only in Tanks that were meant to fight Tanks? With no allowance for defense againt Infantry?

Since it's the first battle, I can always restart the campaign if I got the date wrong.

_____________________________

"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"

(in reply to Voriax)

Post #: 3

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/13/2004 10:45:24 PM

TheChin

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/20/2001
From: Cleveland,OH,USA
Status: offline

Yikes! I just checked in Campaign watcher and it says I'm in 42!

_____________________________

"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"

(in reply to TheChin)

Post #: 4

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/13/2004 10:49:02 PM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

Oh, yeah, the joy and anguish of playing against the Japanese. I know it well. Just wait until you get a load of them in 8.2.

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RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/13/2004 11:07:59 PM

TheChin

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/20/2001
From: Cleveland,OH,USA
Status: offline

I'm not sure if this a bug or by design but, I restarted the campaign and I made sure I selected 39. I go through and pick the Theater and then when I get the intial force selection screen I realize I'm in 42 again. Are there certain dates you can't pick for certain theaters and if you do, does it reset to some default date?

OK, Part II, I go back in, choose the date but choose Western Europe instead and the date switches to 40. I guess choosing the theater does follow some historical guidelines as far as timeline goes.

< Message edited by TheChin -- 5/13/2004 10:07:51 PM >

_____________________________

"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"

(in reply to TheChin)

Post #: 6

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/14/2004 12:25:26 AM

VikingNo2

Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline

The Brits have heavy reece unit with all kinds of MG's . Don't forget to use them they are quite good. I like the one with the double .50 cals Also the 2inch mortar is a very under used item

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Post #: 7

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/14/2004 1:20:51 AM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheChin

I'm not sure if this a bug or by design but, I restarted the campaign and I made sure I selected 39. I go through and pick the Theater and then when I get the intial force selection screen I realize I'm in 42 again. Are there certain dates you can't pick for certain theaters and if you do, does it reset to some default date?

OK, Part II, I go back in, choose the date but choose Western Europe instead and the date switches to 40. I guess choosing the theater does follow some historical guidelines as far as timeline goes.

The British didn't face the Japanese until December of 1941, when they landed at Khota Bharu , Malaya on the 8th. By February 1942, Singapore had fallen.

Actually, it wasn't the British who fought the Japanese at this period of the war; it was the Indian Army. Yes, it was led by British officers, but the troops were Indian.

And the game does default to certain dates for the long campaign, depending on the nation chosen.

_____________________________

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RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/14/2004 2:05:04 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheChin

I guess choosing the theater does follow some historical guidelines as far as timeline goes.

Yeah, I think the long campaigns have certain presets for timelines and theaters. This is both good and bad, as if you choose to play, say, the Germans, the war will always end with the Russians and/or the Americans deep in German territory, no matter how successful you are. You can't change the eventual outcome of the war--all you can do is be satisfied by a good performance by your troops, which at this tactical level is all you can expect. Never forget that in SPWaW, "the battle is the thing".

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RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/14/2004 3:17:26 PM

robot

Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline

I have the British set up in both theaters of war. The date thing is pre set in the long campaign. As i am still in 1941 the british are fighting in africa or egypt only at this date. They dont come into the pacific or asia until 42 earliest battle. They do have 1 battle in 1940 or early 41 against germany in europe. Then they switch to the desert early 41.

I too tho had the problem with my tanks having 2 pounders on them but with no he for infantry. I too have used the bofors very well against infantry. I also use the bren a lot for infantry for no other reason then suppression. So i can get my infantry close enough to do damage. Also 2 and 3 inch mortors are a big help for suppresion.

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RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/14/2004 3:47:49 PM

FNG

Posts: 514
Joined: 1/3/2002
From: Devizes, UK
Status: offline

One of the early cruisers (A10/Cruiser III CS?) has a 3.7" howitzer and is really good in the CS role. The key to early Brit armour is a good balance between CS and anti-tank roles... it is not until the Grant comes on the scene that you have a really useable general-purpose tank.

An absolute must is a number of 25-pounder field guns. With a decent FO, they lay down fast, accurate and effective fire, allowing your infantry to close in and destroy enemy infantry.

Commandos and airborne are your best bet for close-quarters firepower. Not sure if the 'Jungle squads' (something like that) are still in the ANZAC OOB... lots of guns.

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FNG
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

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Post #: 11

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 5/16/2004 9:55:43 PM

panda124c

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

TheChin I feel your pain I'm doing a British campain but I'm doing a Infantry Company with support. One of the Early Crusiers has 3 MGs, CS's are good. Always buy a platoon of Vickers MGs. And, of course, at least a platoon of 40mm AA's best British anti-infantry and doesn't do bad against armour. Got to love those 5.5" too. 2" mortars will suppress anything. The British suffer from shortage of infanty, I've gone to replacing the 2" mortar with a commando, wonderful close in.

(in reply to TheChin)

Post #: 12

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 6/14/2004 8:12:05 PM

TheChin

Posts: 88
Joined: 4/20/2001
From: Cleveland,OH,USA
Status: offline

Ok, I've found a problem in my British campaign, wholly my own bad judgement, but maybe I can illuminate this issue for others so they don't make the same mistake. My big problem was setting the campaign date too early. What happens is that I choose a core force made up of those early units. After the first battle I jump ahead at least a year and my whole core force is badly obsolete, especially facing the Germans. Since I got whooped in the first battle, I don't have enough points to adequately replace obsolete destroyed units and repairing them isn't really practical as they get destroyed very easily. In the future I'll have to find out when a nationality entered the war and set the date just a little after it. Hopefully I'll start off at least close to current.

The one thing that has kept me from abandoning the campaign and starting over is the 6 pounder AT guns. When I buy them with support points they go a long way to equalize the balance of power, but are tricky on the offense. Actually, having a disadvantaged force is pretty fun, it requires you to really be creative tactically in order to stay competitive. Some of my units with highest kill stats are mortars! Those 2 inchers within a couple hexes are pretty nasty. Being half-Italian, I am chagrined to admit that the North Africa battles vs. the Italians are helping me out a lot. Except for there surprisingly effective AT guns, they are, for the most part, push overs.

_____________________________

"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"

(in reply to panda124c)

Post #: 13

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 6/17/2004 2:07:25 AM

panda124c

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

Trade those Boyes ATR in for captured Italina 20mm ATR's.

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Post #: 14

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 6/17/2004 7:43:52 AM

Major Destruction

Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline

von Mellenthin, in his book "Panzer Battles" mentions more than once that if the British had utilised their 3.7in AA guns in an AT role as the Germans did with their 88mm FlaK guns, the British would have fared much better against German armour in the Desert.

British tanks had a good AT gun in the 2 pounder but German anti-tank guns could not be knocked out by British tanks which lacked a HE round. The CS tanks fired smoke almost exclusively, so it was not until the Grant and Sherman tanks were introduced that the British armour could take on the German combined arms.

von Mellenthin states that the British never fully learned to use their forces effectively in a combined arms role and committed their armour in penny packets which could be dispatched in detail.

Once Montgomery arrived and took control things began to change.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to panda124c)

Post #: 15

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 6/17/2004 8:58:38 AM

Wallymanowar

Posts: 651
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Vernon, B.C., Canada
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A word about the 'Long Campaign' - my favourite one.

If you play as any of the major nations (USArmy, USMarines, Japan, Germany, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union) the following defaults start times occur if you choose January 1939 as the start date (IIRC).
Germany - September 1939 against the Poles
Japan - November 1939 against the Soviet Union
Soviet Union - November 1939 against Finland
Great Britain - May 1940 against Germany (ETO)
USArmy - January 1942 against Japan (PTO)
USMarines - January 1942 against Japan
Great Britain - January 1942 against Japan (PTO)
USArmy - November 1942 against Vichy France (ETO)

_____________________________

I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
Yogi Berra

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Post #: 16

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 6/19/2004 9:21:51 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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1942 was a very bad year for the Commonwealth, except for fighting on the Kokoda Trail in New Guinea. Malaya and Singapore and the retreating into India are indications that not all was going well in the Far East.

Sounds like you "took it on the chin." Sorry! I could not resist!

The Brits improve with time, but the Japanese are always a hard nut to crack. They just don't give up easily!

WB

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wallymanowar)

Post #: 17

RE: Early British Forces or "How I got my butt han... - 6/19/2004 3:28:37 PM

11Bravo

Posts: 2082
Joined: 4/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheChin

I decided to play the long WWII campaign with the British. I have already played it through with the U.S., Germans and Japanese. Since I just came off a good pummeling as the Bristish Vs. the Germans in PBEM, I decided that my knowledge of UK forces and the resulting tactics was sorely lacking. The very first battle (I started the campaign in '39) I found out just how badly my skills as a UK Colonel were. After picking my sizable force and deploying, I was soon fending off a sea of human antagonists. That's when I came to the grim realisation that early UK tanks were very role-oriented and most of my tanks had only AP rounds. Only the paltry few that were included in the Troop with a CS desiginator had any HE capability. The AP armed tanks did come with A(1)(uno) MG. Which I can say have been firing constantly and without pause. The Japanese came with about 4 tanks and 2 rail cars, which were taken out by my P-39's before my tanks even got a good shot. I also bought some AT guns with my support points, which also didn't bring any HE to the front with them and they have been largely useless, other than supplying fodder for the occasional 150mm artillery barrages I receive. If it wasn't for the Bofors AA I bought, I'd have been run over a long time ago. But man, those Bofors can eat up those big Infantry squads. Which brings me to another "challenge", my British rifle squads are typically 8-9 guys (I turned on the realistic squad setting), while the Japanese squads are naturally the size of whole platoons (I exaggerate, but it sure seems that way) and they hardly ever turn tail, they just keep climbing over their dead getting one hex closer every turn to my positions. I'm not done yet with the battle, but I think I'll be lucky to get a draw.

One bright note, I got a group of Stuart III/IV's behind the enemy horde and wiped out his 81mm mortor cluster. And as a added bonus, right after a "Stuart II/IV squashed 81mm Mortar Squad" during a juicy overrun, an inexperienced aid in the Japanese HQ unit took a ill-advised OpFire from a nearby treeline. Well, needless to say, 2 Stuarts with 6 MG's between them and the Japanese force lost it's head. Unfortunately, unlike a rational enemy, losing the HQ doesn't seem to have much effect on their morale and the tide continues to come in.

Nice AAR. You got me interested in giving the Commonwealth forces another look.

_____________________________

Squatting in the bush and marking it on a map.

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Post #: 18

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