RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 2:18:25 AM

Von Rom

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It seems that wargame companies such as SSI and Talonsoft died, not directly due to them being wargame companies, but mainly because of their very poor product support and their inability to listen to their customers.

SSI in particular, would release a game, issue maybe one patch, then move on. In their forums, when people pointed out bugs that needed to be fixed in a game, were either ignored, or were made to feel as though SSI had never heard about the game. . .

SSI, IMO, was the author of its own demise. . .

For example, Panzer General II (and the whole 5 star series) which SSI made is still going strong after 8-10 years. In fact, PG2 is more popular today, and has more campaigns and people playing them, than ever before.

The wargame genre isn't dying; it's just that few wargame companies in the past were as responsive as Matrix is today. Just take a look at all the games Matrix is working on :)

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 6/13/2004 12:21:55 AM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 3:18:38 AM

Pippin

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Joined: 11/9/2002
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SSI hit the gold-mine for Panzer General that is for sure. But after version II, for some reason they just let it all go downhill to ****.

As for Talonsoft, they deserved to die, and let me tell you some tid-bits on why..

Norm was wanting to do some more tweaks to the TOAW when it had been out for a while, and also have more patches made, unfortunately Talonsoft refused and kept the code locked in the safe. Oddly enough, they finaly did make a fix (direct X fix), but they were somewhat forced too. You see, TOAW had a tendancy to self-uninstall itself right after install. You guys remember that one? Yah, pretty bad.

Shame they also didnt fix the NT CD issue. What a surprise it is for people who try to install TOAW and they get the error that TOAW is a non NT compatible cd! Sheesh! And yes, this even occures on non-NT workstations.

But wait, it gets even better.... For the person who is total confused as to what is going on with these issues, and tries to research the Talonsoft forums, GOOD LUCK! For many weeks on end, (months) the forums would be down, offline. Accounting problems, and problems finding a new forum company to host, etc.. more piss poor management.. Lets just say, you were LUCKY to see the proper TOAW forum running.

Ironicaly, when they did go back up a few times, you could see some posts debating if Talonsoft was PURPOSELY trying to go bankrupt.

Add in the fact that Talonsoft then decided suddenly they would spend most their efforts on jumping into the 3D bandwagon like everyone else... BAD IDEA! Went from a perfect market to one flooded with competitors.

Oh, and btw, none of this has to do with any bias due to Talonsoft screwing over Matrix Games on the Napoleon Era wargame a while back.

I think i'll pause the list here, but feel free to add any anti-Talonsoft tid-bids, hehe.

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Post #: 92

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 4:25:08 AM

*Lava*

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Hi!

Interesting Pippin, any idea why they never released the code to TOAW (or did I miss something)?

This is a game which serious modders would have a field day with.

Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 93

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 10:09:08 AM

Didz

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I Think the real breakthrough in computer wargaming will be when they begin to produce the 'You are there' style of wargame, or perhaps a more apt classification would be the Commander and Control Roleplaying Game.

In theory this ought to be possible now by combining concepts from CRPG, FSEU and CWG's.

The basic arrangement being a high quailty graphic roleplaying game where the player roleplays the commander of the forces involved, can issue commands to sub-ordinates etc. Wnder into and out of his command tent at will to look at maps, listen to reports etc. but can also ride with his troops into battle if desired and witness the action.

These are the sort of game I now favour to play when I play moderated Napoleonic's and ought to be the target for computer wargames in my opinion.

< Message edited by Didz -- 6/13/2004 8:09:44 AM >

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 1:10:12 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Didz, has raised one of my comments I have made a few times.

We can roleplay virtually anything out there, but an actual genuine real world military situation. Or more precisely, a military situation from the popular time periods.

I don't mind commanding Rommel's forces, but it would be neat to actually roleplay out "being" Rommel himself. Well not exactly Rommel maybe, but be put in his same shoes as it were.

To my knowledge, that sort of game doesn't yet exist.

To those beating up on SSI and Talonsoft, I guess I missed all the details.
To me, SSI and Talonsoft are just the names I would expect to find on all the past best wargames ever made for computer (my opinion).
That the companies are no longer there, and the reasons why, are mostly just stuff I hear about second hand.
But I have seen other companies come and go. Some for good reason, some because life has no garantees.
I have seen some companies just asking to become ex companies.

I remember that little bug in The Operational Art of War Elite Edition Volume 1 (in my case). Yes it was quite annoying to sit and watch the game install, and the second it was done, poof no game. It was easy to fix, when you knew what to fix. But not knowing what to fix, would make the game quite worthless.
And you can bet, if I had never had that fixed, I would not now also own any other Talonsoft products. That one little fix allowed me to get TOAW 2 and then I decided to get TOAW CoW as well. Plus I bought the Campaign series.
I realise that Talonsoft made other titles, but I didn't grab those.

SSI was to me, originally Steel Panthers. But I have seen that label on more games than I can recall.

But having a label on countless titles didn't help Avalon Hill survive bad choices/conditions either.
Success is only acheived when you make as few mistakes as possible.

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Post #: 95

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 1:40:31 PM

Didz

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The problem with Talonsoft and SSI in my opinion is that they never rose above the initial Computer Boardgame concept of wargaming.

Before computers Wargaming had nothing to do with boardgames and centred on tabletop miniatures.

Computer boardgames just can't compete for sales with CRGP's and RTS computers games and what needs to happen to bringing wargaming back into competition with those genre's is a complete change of approach to computer wargaming which dumps the hex grid and cardboard counter style and expliots the computer to provide a real Command and Control experience.

As I say, I have played such games using Talonsoft wargames as a backbone but with the gameplot overlaid with a roleplay system maintained by a human moderator. I actually played Napoleon in the Eylau campaign and Bagration in the 1812 campaign.

The highlight of the 1812 campaign for me was a battle to prevent the French securing a vital river bridge. The French had built a redoubt on the Russian side of the river protecting their bridgehead which my Division was order to take. I didn't agree with my superiors plan for this but the player in charge insisted so. Having massed my chosen regiment for the assault I decided it only fair that I lead them personally in the charge. I gave them a stirring speech something along the lines of 'Its a ****ty job but someone's got to do it, and to prove I have faith in you I shall lead you myself to glory.' Waited for the mandatory cheer. Dismounted from my horse handed the reins to my ADC, drew my sword with a flourish and threw away the scabbard as a gesture of commitment then led the regiment over the walls of the redoubt and in with bayonet.

I must admit I expected the moderator to inform me that Bagration was dead and my regiment decimated and so I was really surprised to be told that the French were either in a panicked flight back over the bridge or throwing down their weapons and begging for mercy.

It appears that by pure chance my assault coincided with the French players decision to redeploy the redoubts garrison and we had gone over the walls to find the garrison in mid-transition and with their back to us. Creating total chaos in seconds.

Spent the next half-an-hour of game time accepting French officers swords and parading around with their captured Eagle and then I had to wander off to try and find my ADC who still had my horse, and the scabbard to my sword

Nevertheless, it was a glorious moment that has been retold many times with suitable embellishments.

< Message edited by Didz -- 6/13/2004 11:43:31 AM >

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Post #: 96

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 2:56:21 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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quote:

Before computers Wargaming had nothing to do with boardgames and centred on tabletop miniatures.

That comment is way out to lunch Didz hehe.

True before board games you only had table top miniatures. But I seem to recall something like 20-30 years worth of extremely noticable board gaming before the personal computer became a useful enough device to a useful enough amount of people that it became more numerous than board games.

Number of people I personally know playing table top miniatures right now ZERO.

Number of people I have ever known to play table top miniatures, ever, less than 5.

Looking like a board game is not the end of the world.
But I will admit, not making full use of a modern computers computing power is a bad idea.
Only using the computers computing power for a visual perk though is as bad as any other bad decision though.

The power of my computer's hardware should be about more than just processing graphics. I want more than graphics, for the same reason people want the graphics themselves. There is more to a wargame than just the one element.

If you gave me a fully interactive wargame, with an AI that actually thought, but made it only text based interaction, I would not play that either. A wargame is more than just interaction with an AI.

Like the formula for tank design Firepower, protection, mobility, a wargame needs to combine properly playable, credible, visual in the right proportions, or you don't have a success.
You can't swing to far in any one of those three at the expense of the other, and expect to get anywhere.

I think HTTR is for instance beginning to get the balance fixed.
Looks like a wargame, plays in real time, is visually appealing.

I think the future looks bright for that game system.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 3:34:55 PM

Didz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

quote:

Before computers Wargaming had nothing to do with boardgames and centred on tabletop miniatures.

That comment is way out to lunch Didz hehe.

True before board games you only had table top miniatures. But I seem to recall something like 20-30 years worth of extremely noticable board gaming before the personal computer became a useful enough device to a useful enough amount of people that it became more numerous than board games.

Well I can't comment about Wargaming in Canada but here in the UK there was always a distinct difference between Wargames and Boardgames. They were two seperate hobbies attracting quite different players. It was only the computer that caused the boardgame to be reclassified as a Wargame when the first computer boardgames appeared on the shelves.

Traditional wargaming was not affected by the rise of computer gaming what crippled the hobby was the appearance of Fantasy Gaming and the rise of companies like Games Workshop who flooded the market with new exciting fictional games.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a huge untapped market of wargamers out there who are not interested in computerised boardgames but would be interested in computerised wargaming if it reflected the traditional tabletop style or imporved upon it. Boardgamers were always in the minority and so one must assume that for every person playing computerised boardgaming today there ought to be several potential computer wargamers who would be attracted to that style of game if it were produced.

These people are probably playiing games like Medieval Totalwar, Medal of Honour and even Warcraft3 at present but would be interested in a well written Napoleonic or WW2 Wargame. As I say the frustrating thing is that such a wargame is actually feasible but that wargame design companies don't seem to have the vision or skill to produce it.

I produced a overall design for a Napoloenic Tactical game a couple of years ago which merely brought together concepts from several existing games on the market to produce a complete first person commmand and control system for Napoleonic wargames but it was too radical a shift from hex grids for anyone to take serious. Since then some of these idea's have been incorporated into Combat Mission but there is still a lot that can be done to attract wargamers back to the hobby by this sort of game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I think HTTR is for instance beginning to get the balance fixed.
Looks like a wargame, plays in real time, is visually appealing.

I can't comment on HTTR as I don't even know what it is.

But I would caution against any company attempting to produce a real time wargame.

The single most important feature in the success of any computer wargame is the ability to play with and against other human players. As recent wargames like Shogun Totalwar and Medieval Totalwar have shown it simply isn't feasible to play a full scale tactical wargame, let alone a campaign over the internet against other players in real time. It is the absence of that ability which prevented Creative Assemblies efforts being truly awesome.

The trick must therefore be to produce a wargame which can be played by multiple players working as a team on in opposition, which includes the visual appeal of a wargame whilst capable of being run as a PBEM.

< Message edited by Didz -- 6/13/2004 2:24:48 PM >

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Post #: 98

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 4:32:29 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz

I Think the real breakthrough in computer wargaming will be when they begin to produce the 'You are there' style of wargame, or perhaps a more apt classification would be the Commander and Control Roleplaying Game.

In theory this ought to be possible now by combining concepts from CRPG, FSEU and CWG's.

The basic arrangement being a high quailty graphic roleplaying game where the player roleplays the commander of the forces involved, can issue commands to sub-ordinates etc. Wnder into and out of his command tent at will to look at maps, listen to reports etc. but can also ride with his troops into battle if desired and witness the action.

These are the sort of game I now favour to play when I play moderated Napoleonic's and ought to be the target for computer wargames in my opinion.

That is a great story. So you are saying you meet in person for these team Napoleonic games..or is it handled live on-line or by PBEM?

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 4:53:30 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Clearly an interesting difference occuring here :)

Didz living in the UK has clearly grown up with totally differing environments to what I have experienced.

In Canada (and maybe the US too I suppose), the miniatures scene has (to my knowledge) never been really what appears as commonplace to Didz.
Which only makes our conversation here intriguing for the regional insights.

HTTR is Highway to the Reich by the way (I erred thinking all Matrix Games forum members would recognise that, my goof :) ). It is currently one of their better products.

http://www.highwaytothereich.com/

Here in Canada, wargaming has always meant pushing cardboard around for the most part. Being called a wargamer meant you liked games like Squad Leader Panzerblitz Third Reich basically Avalon Hill or SPI etc.
Might be that we here in the colonies don't have the old world background of playing with miniature hehe :)

I know of GDW, and frankly think their stuff is over priced lousy crappola. But that is what the public knows of miniatures gaming (at least that is the limit of all I have ever seen on sale in Canada).
Good luck finding Napoleonics miniatures on sale in Canada. You will likely end up on the internet before you see them on a store shelf in Canada.

I have seen the GDW ala fantasy style miniatures sort of computer game incidentally.
I even have demos of two of them.
Not to bad, but look like any other RTS design for the most part.

I own a 4 x 8 foot dining table only because I made an attempt at miniatures gaming. When it became clear the guys were not actually serious, I took it back to my work shop and turned it from a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood, into something presentable as a dinner table.
Handy for serving large crowds though :)

While you lament board games stealign away real wargamers (god I find that funny I hope you don't mind), here in Canada, we would say it was those damnable rolegames we liked to hate during the 70s and 80s that distracted an increasing number of board gamers (which we called real wargamers) from what was our idea of the true wargaming.

Rolegaming interestingly, grew out of table top miniatures gaming (kind of an interesting sort of irony eh).

"But I would caution against any company attempting to produce a real time wargame."

That has to be ultimately humourous all things considered hehe.
I am well known for my bitching about REAL Time Strategy games pretending to wear the label "war"game hehe :)
But in spite of how I hate them, RTS is what sells the big sales.

Of course some of it is semantics.
Highway to the Reich is indeed a real time wargame, and it looks set to really become a powerful new direction in gaming out military actions.

Multi player wargames must be possible, they do it for almost everything else.

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 5:59:54 PM

EricGuitarJames

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Didz wrote

quote:

Well I can't comment about Wargaming in Canada but here in the UK there was always a distinct difference between Wargames and Boardgames. They were two seperate hobbies attracting quite different players. It was only the computer that caused the boardgame to be reclassified as a Wargame when the first computer boardgames appeared on the shelves.

Well that's not my experience. The wargame club I belonged to in the '80s played both (as well as a bit of RPG for good measure

) and it wasn't as if we had two separate 'factions' as it were. I very much enjoyed both types of gaming although I leant towards 'table-top' back then.

Didz wrote

quote:

The single most important feature in the success of any computer wargame is the ability to play with and against other human players. As recent wargames like Shogun Totalwar and Medieval Totalwar have shown it simply isn't feasible to play a full scale tactical wargame, let alone a campaign over the internet against other players in real time. It is the absence of that ability which prevented Creative Assemblies efforts being truly awesome.

'Highway to the Reich' gives you that, even on a 'dial-up' connection. It isn't what makes it a great game but it is a facility that widens the playing experience. I can't comment on the 'Total War' games but the upcoming 'Rome' game is supposedly very good to play online.

< Message edited by EricGuitarJames -- 6/13/2004 4:05:44 PM >

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RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 6:13:45 PM

Pippin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

Hi!

Interesting Pippin, any idea why they never released the code to TOAW (or did I miss something)?

This is a game which serious modders would have a field day with.

Ray (alias Lava)

I do not remember a definit answere, but I could give you a guess from my experiences with Hasbro. Simple answere, some guy with a suit & tie with a business/ecconomics piece of paper out of grad school, decided it is not worth it to put an extra coder asside to fix up a game that they believe is maketable as is.

You want a better game? Buy the next version!

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Post #: 102

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 6:20:02 PM

Von Rom

Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

SSI hit the gold-mine for Panzer General that is for sure. But after version II, for some reason they just let it all go downhill to ****.

As for Talonsoft, they deserved to die, and let me tell you some tid-bits on why..

Norm was wanting to do some more tweaks to the TOAW when it had been out for a while, and also have more patches made, unfortunately Talonsoft refused and kept the code locked in the safe. Oddly enough, they finaly did make a fix (direct X fix), but they were somewhat forced too. You see, TOAW had a tendancy to self-uninstall itself right after install. You guys remember that one? Yah, pretty bad.

Shame they also didnt fix the NT CD issue. What a surprise it is for people who try to install TOAW and they get the error that TOAW is a non NT compatible cd! Sheesh! And yes, this even occures on non-NT workstations.

But wait, it gets even better.... For the person who is total confused as to what is going on with these issues, and tries to research the Talonsoft forums, GOOD LUCK! For many weeks on end, (months) the forums would be down, offline. Accounting problems, and problems finding a new forum company to host, etc.. more piss poor management.. Lets just say, you were LUCKY to see the proper TOAW forum running.

Ironicaly, when they did go back up a few times, you could see some posts debating if Talonsoft was PURPOSELY trying to go bankrupt.

Add in the fact that Talonsoft then decided suddenly they would spend most their efforts on jumping into the 3D bandwagon like everyone else... BAD IDEA! Went from a perfect market to one flooded with competitors.

Oh, and btw, none of this has to do with any bias due to Talonsoft screwing over Matrix Games on the Napoleon Era wargame a while back.

I think i'll pause the list here, but feel free to add any anti-Talonsoft tid-bids, hehe.

I know how you feel.

I was a big supporter of SSI and Talonsoft. They made some of the best wargames I still play today.

I was actually on the forums for SSI and Talonsoft back in the day, so I saw a lot of what was happening "first hand". It wasn't pretty.

To this day I still scratch my head over those companies.

In partcular SSI had a loyal following; they were making games that sold, and that people wanted to play. Yet, whenever they developed a popular game, they would drop it shortly thereafter. Again, just look at the popularity of PG2 today. All SSI needed to do was to keep enhancing that game and people would have bought it. . .

I have also heard directly from people who actually worked for the company.

I feel there are more reasons why those companies went belly-up than because they were making wargames.

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Post #: 103

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 6:22:02 PM

Pippin

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quote:

To those beating up on SSI and Talonsoft, I guess I missed all the details.

Well I am not beating up on SSI, though Panzer 3D (Assault) was done very poorly. It is interresting how the earlier versions were quite a big hit etc. Yet when they got to the 3'rd draft of the series things went down hill. They were supposed to allow online players to play tcp/ip like in version II. Funy thing is, they never had any real beta testing, and found out the hardway that the tcp/ip thing only tends to work if you are on the same tiny lan & timezone. Rediculous.

Couple into that, some typical bugs, not to mention you have no way of even being able to check entrenchement levels (you must keep it all in your own memory!) etc. Some more piss poor elements I wont get into, and you can see that SOMEONE was definitely trying to kill off the series. Though I'm no expert on the matter, could be after version II SSI had nothing to do with the series anymore, not sure.

As for Talonsoft, perhaps I am biased as I did have a few grunges. Would be interresting to have someone from Talonsoft here to perhaps give their side of the story. Not sure I'd take their word for it, but there perhaps is a small chance I could come to reason with them.

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Post #: 104

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 7:27:07 PM

riverbravo

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quote:

Well I can't comment about Wargaming in Canada but here in the UK there was always a distinct difference between Wargames and Boardgames. They were two seperate hobbies attracting quite different players. It was only the computer that caused the boardgame to be reclassified as a Wargame when the first computer boardgames appeared on the shelves

Yes,I also played more miniature wargames than board games.

Half of the fun is creating the terrain and painting the miniatures.

It can get tough finding 25mm ww2 figures.

I have a couple of squads worth of Americans and Germans.

I liked to use the playing card method.

Depending on the size of the game one card would represent either a squad or a single man.Shuffle the cards after each round and put them face down.Pull a card,hmmm,2 of diamonds,Thats the 30 cal team,that team gets to make their move.

That is a fun system.You can never tell who will go next.

We went all out to creatw good battlefields.Also,we took turns placing terrain around the battlefield.

that was some fun gaming.I still really like that style of play.

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Post #: 105

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 9:11:13 PM

Didz

Posts: 728
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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
That is a great story. So you are saying you meet in person for these team Napoleonic games..or is it handled live on-line or by PBEM?

It was a PBEM. The moderator completed all the moves and determined the result of actions etc.

And then notified each player of the results. Positional information for tactical play was displayed using the Talonsoft game system with the maps and units edited to reflect the actual terrain. Strategic play was handled in a larger scale map. I 'm not sure where that came from it might have been scanned in from a boardgame.

If your interested I still have most of the email text which went back and forth and have listed it below. The only thing I misled you about in my earlier message the fact that I was playing Dohktyarov not Bagration. (memory playing tricks again)

III Corps
South of Keidany en route to Kovno, 15th July 1812

GOC IV Corps, III Cav Corps

I acknowledge your information and have passed it to Gen. Barclay. My Corps
will be at Kovno tomorrow where it has been ordered to support II Corps.

If it is confirmed that the French have crossed the Neimen in strength SW of
Rossieny I shall seek his approval to march to your assistance. In the
meantime keep me informed of developments.

And here the famous sequence of orders leading up to my heroic assault:

The French are withdrawing from Vilna. Attack the French at once to try to tie them. They have to be prevented from escaping to the Northwest at all costs. They are eluding the trap and have to be stopped.

General Barclay de Tolly
++++
Your excellency,

In obedience with your instructions the 7th Div are attempting to seize the town but I beg to report that far from withdrawing the French are in fact defending Vilna most vigorously and are actually attempting to secure a
bridgehead over the river to the south.

I fear our attack may have the opposite effect to which you intend and could actually prompt the French to abandon the field before the I Corps arrive to block their escape. With the river between us there is little that can be
done to prevent this should they so decide.

Dokhtyarov
++++
[After spotting that my 7th Division had advanced on Vilna without my orders]
Riding up to Gen. Kaptsevich I shall greet him warmly and ask him to provide me with an update on the local situation and his current orders and intentions.

Amongst other things this should confirm whether he has been ordered to launch a full scale assault on the town by Gen. Barclay, or whether the current deployment of the 7th Division is a misunderstanding of my earlier instructions.

How I respond will therefore depend on the content of his report.

Dokhtyarov
++++
[Reply from the Moderator]
You can see the situation of 7th Division.

Kaptsevich has very much the same order as you from Barclay, sent directly to him. He has committed one of his three brigades to an attack to prevent the French from withdrawing by disrupting them and stop lateral movement to the
bridge (and stopping them having breakfast).

One battery is moving to the right flank to fire along the river line, the only clear field of view and allowing flanking fire to the citadel, while the others are staying among the infantry.
++++
[Not happy at having the chain of command by-passed in this way, I decide to reaffirm my own command]
Verbal Order to Gen. Kaptsevich

I shall acknowledge the report of Gen. Kaptsevich and instruct him to withdraw his artillery from the streets of Vilna and to have them deploy on the high ground north of the bridge over the Tigoda stream from whence they are to engage any troops moving between Vilna and Ofadoe.

He is then to invest the Citadel by occupying the surrounding buildings with skirmishers whilst 3rd Brigade is to retire and reform. Whilst the 2nd Brigade is to launch a direct assault to seize the eastern threshold of the bridge.
++++
[Recognising that I have no choice but to comply with Barclay's order]
Verbal Order to Gen. Kaptsevich

The 2nd Brigade will move forward and prepare for a direct assault to seize the redoubt (Citadel) guarding the eastern threshold of the bridge. I shall dismount and lead this attack personally at the head of the Libau Regiment. But I wish to wait until the Sofia Regiment is in position and ready to join us so that the full weight of the brigade can be brought to bear in a single assault.

I shall explain all this to Gen. Kaptsevich and instruct him that should the assault fail he is to try again with the 1st Brigade.

(Hopefully common sense will have prevailed by then)
++++
An aide is to be sent to Gen. Likhachev informing him of my intentions and instructing him to be ready to assume command of the Corps should I fall.

Another is to be sent to Gen. Tschulski commanding the 1st Brigade 24th Division informing him of the impending assault and requesting that he maintains the pressure on the French right flank.

A third is to be sent to Gen Barclay informing him of my intentions.

(presumably all these aides can be briefed together and sent their separate ways in fact I see this as some sort huddle where I am brief everyone on what I intend and then send them off on their various tasks)

Dokhtyarov
++++
Once the 2nd Brigade is assembled, my team has been briefed and the couriers dispatched I shall ride over to the Libau Regiment and present my compliments to General Balmen informing him that I wish to address the men. When I have their attention I shall give them the standard 'We're all going to die hero's speech'.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soldiers of the 2nd Brigade, we have been given a ****ty job to do. If it could be avoided then I would have avoided it but there is no alternative. Just down the road there is a regiment of Dutchmen defending a bridge. They are the 124th Regiment and they are a long way from home, they are scared, and they are homesick. They are too scared to face us in the open so they have built themselves a wall to hide behind. We are going to show them that a wall is no protection from the soldiers of the 2nd Brigade. We are going forward, we are going to cross that wall and we are going to drive those Dutchmen into the river with the points of our bayonets. No man is to fire his musket until he has crossed that wall, no man is to stop and help a comrade who has fallen. This will be a bloody business that wall is the key to the French position they will not give it up easily but take it we must. I am not prepared to send you where I would not go myself therefore I shall lead this attack in person all I ask is that you follow me and avenge me should I fall before you. Now prepare yourselves and lets show these Dutchmen how Russian soldiers fight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I shall then dismount and pass my horse to my batman or whoever to take to the rear. I shall then join the Commander of the Libau Regiment and remind him that his men are not to fire until we are inside the redoubt. I shall then ask him if his regiment has any singers and assuming it does I shall instruct him to have them sing the most popular raunchy song in their repertoire. We may not be able to shoot them hidden behind those walls but we can damn well give them earache.

Once all is prepared I shall draw my sword throw away the scabbard and give the signal to advance.
+++++
[The advance begins. Message to the Moderator]

I'm in no position to issue any orders this turn so I shall just make sure my sword chains are out of the way and won't trip me up as I walk. I've already fallen off me horse today so I don't really want to show myself up still further by tripping over and going face first in the mud in front of the entire 2nd Brigade.

Glad to see the artillery are moving off and the 3rd Brigade are reforming.

Bit disappointed that Tschulshi's Brigade are not engaging the enemy more closely I don't want the French given the freedom to move against our flank. Hopefully, he will move his brigade forward as we commence the assault. The
battle at the southern bridge seems to be going well. Likhachev and Uvarov are working well together on that flank, I still feel we ought to be seeking to exploit that situation rather than wasting lives here. I just hope the situation in the town doesn't go completely pear shaped and ruin it for everyone.

No point worrying about that now I shall just compose myself for the off.

I hope the French haven't done something really clever like mine the approaches to the redoubt, mind you surely if they had been that clever they would have demolished the surrounding houses to create a clear fire zone for their artillery.

I don't think we stand a cat in hells chance of carrying that redoubt but its the only way to deny the French the bridge. At the very least the presence of the 2nd Brigades assault column will make it difficult for them to move troops through the redoubt and over the river. Unless of course they have boats but its too late to worry about that now. If we do by some
miracle carry the redoubt then we probably won't be able to hold it anyway with that artillery battery on the far side of the river waiting to spray canister into any defenders through the open rear face. Wouldn't it be ironic if I ended up ordering an assault over the bridge in order to take those guns after all my moaning about the stupidity of doing so.

I was amused to notice that group of French staff officers cowering on the far side of the river. It appears that apart from one lone General the French on our side of the river have been abandoned by their leaders.

Clearly the French Generals are not so keen on dying for their Emperor as we are. I think the French troops should suffer a morale penalty for the cowardly example being shown by their officers. Don't you? (Well its worth a try)

Now where's my hip-flask I need something to stop my hand shaking.

Dokhtyarov
++++
[Approaching the Citadel. - Message to Moderator]

I have no change of orders and probably would not be in position to issue any even if I had.

Looks like the fight at the southern bridge is going well. I believe we just captured a battalion of the 2e Ligne (apparently that regiment had the strange distinction of serving at the Battle of Trafalgar when it was on Naval duty)

As for our little party in the town. I think the French General Staff must have heard my taunts and I note that they have now crossed the bridge to join their troops in the redoubt. But I'm a bit puzzled as to why all the defenders have just turned their backs to us, unless of course they are preparing to do a mass 'mooney'. Now that would be frightening, all those spotty French butts hanging over the parapet.

Dokhtyarov.
++++
[Response from the Moderator]

So, you spotted the latest French deliberate mistake. I have to admit I can't fathom their tactics from top to bottom. On which subject: must revise the icons by adding mooning infantry - more effective in line than column, I think.

It seems we have some inexperienced players among the French who should perhaps have been given commands among those farther from the action for their first time out. One, commanding at the southern bridge, has given up entirely. I suppose he realised he was only embarrassing himself with his tactics and lack of grasp all round. The strange thing was his mode of exit: I received an email from his address telling me he was unable to use his email and would not be in touch, signed 'his wife'. Found it too hard to make a tactical withdrawal in more ways than one, it seems.
++++
[Message from the Moderator: After the assault]

Well, the speech seemed to work. After clearing the enemy from the redoubt you peer through the settling dust and dispersing smoke to the other side of the river to see......that the French you have isolated are far from finished, though in considerable disorder and really only in need of having their hopelessness demonstrated to them. I will give them a turn or two and see how things stand before deciding who, if any, flee, surrender or fight on.

I'm afraid this hasn't been pleasant for the French and player morale may be waning, so once this attack is fought through to a conclusion I may ask everyone their intentions and adjudicate what may be the end of the battle.
++++

In fact the French threw in the towel and ordered a general withdrawal abandoning all the troops still on the Russian side of the river to the tender mercies of a Russian prison camp.

< Message edited by Didz -- 6/13/2004 7:33:04 PM >

_____________________________

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Fortis balore et armis

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Post #: 106

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 9:25:51 PM

Didz

Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames
Well that's not my experience. The wargame club I belonged to in the '80s played both (as well as a bit of RPG for good measure) and it wasn't as if we had two separate 'factions' as it were. I very much enjoyed both types of gaming although I leant towards 'table-top' back then.

So did the one I ran. But the two hobbies were distinctly different. Personally, I played both tabletop games and boardgames, as did many others. But we also had members who refused to have anything to do with 'playing with toy soldiers' and those who refused to socialise with 'those bloody hex-counters'.

The only thing the club did do was ban the playing of boardgames on club nights, as we found it disrupted the Wargaming activity and as far the the club were concerned the club night was for those who needed the space of the hall we hired for large scale miniatures games. Boardgame nights were held round members houses as they didn't need a large area.

quote:

'Highway to the Reich' gives you that, even on a 'dial-up' connection. It isn't what makes it a great game but it is a facility that widens the playing experience. I can't comment on the 'Total War' games but the upcoming 'Rome' game is supposedly very good to play online.

Be interested to hear how Highway of the Reich manages to cope with presumably days of detailed game play in real time over the internet.

The Totalwar games provide a very limited multi-player option where individual battles can be fought in real-time over the internet. But these battles are very basic slugfests that are over within an hour. There is no option to play the campaign itself against other players because of the complexity of trying to switch from turn based PBEM play for campaign moves into real time tactical play for the battles and back again.

To actually play several months of simulated military campaign let alone several hundred years as in MTW is just not feasible unless players were able to spend several days on-line without sleep.

< Message edited by Didz -- 6/13/2004 7:28:25 PM >

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Fortis balore et armis

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Post #: 107

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 10:27:08 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

Didz;

Interesting exchange. This part is hilarious

quote:

It seems we have some inexperienced players among the French who should perhaps have been given commands among those farther from the action for their first time out. One, commanding at the southern bridge, has given up entirely. I suppose he realised he was only embarrassing himself with his tactics and lack of grasp all round. The strange thing was his mode of exit: I received an email from his address telling me he was unable to use his email and would not be in touch, signed 'his wife'. Found it too hard to make a tactical withdrawal in more ways than one, it seems.

The French player may have had a case of defeatis interruptis

I was involved in a similar thing using Sid Meir's Gettysburg to resolve tactical battles in a recreation of the Seven Days Battles in the US Civil War. The role playing is really fun. Check out the "reports" page. [url]www.aovkershaw.homestead.com[/url]

I don't know a whole lot about Napoleonic battles, but if you are looking for players for future scenarios. Let me know.

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Post #: 108

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 10:29:07 PM

EricGuitarJames

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline

quote:

Be interested to hear how Highway of the Reich manages to cope with presumably days of detailed game play in real time over the internet.

Well at the slowest game speed, 2 hours of play equates to about 8 hours of game-time. I recently played H2H against an experienced HTTR player and we both posted AAR's on the game section of this site. The game itself was a 5-day affair and it took us approximately 5 weeks to complete it - it would have been 4 but for a lightning strike taking out my adsl modem and phone-line.

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Post #: 109

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/13/2004 11:45:02 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

Wish I actually knew locals that wanted to do miniatures. I built that darn table for a reason heheh.

I even went out and picked up the Barbarossa game for miniatures.

I would likely be a WW2 miniatures fan.

Collecting the vehicles and soldiers would not deter me.

But just don't expect me to spring for lousy over priced Warhammer junk.

It would have to be properly made models.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 110

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 12:32:07 AM

Didz

Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Wish I actually knew locals that wanted to do miniatures. I built that darn table for a reason heheh.

There are still clubs around but Warhammer and Warhammer 40K really knocked the stuffing out of the market.

Its interesting too that these games also consider themselves wargames. So, if the interpretation of a wargame is any game which depicts war then the hobby if still florishing.

quote:

It would have to be properly made models.

To be fair the Warhammer miniatures are extremely well sculpted and cast. Far superior to the wargame miniatures we had to make do with in the 70's. I remember having to sit for hours with a nail file removing the flash from my figures before I could even begin to paint them.

I actually played Warhammer and Warhammer 40K with my children for several years and I now run a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay game but I would never class it as wargaming.

The problem is that it attracts players when they are in their early teens and retains their interest into maturity whereas very few historical wargames groups would even be interested in recruiting youngsters into their games.

However, I believe if there were good quality wargame programs on the store shelves there are enough of there youngsters interested in military history to buy them and revitalise the hobby.

_____________________________

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Fortis balore et armis

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Post #: 111

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 12:43:23 AM

Didz

Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Didz;

Interesting exchange. This part is hilarious

quote:

It seems we have some inexperienced players among the French who should perhaps have been given commands among those farther from the action for their first time out. One, commanding at the southern bridge, has given up entirely. I suppose he realised he was only embarrassing himself with his tactics and lack of grasp all round. The strange thing was his mode of exit: I received an email from his address telling me he was unable to use his email and would not be in touch, signed 'his wife'. Found it too hard to make a tactical withdrawal in more ways than one, it seems.

The French player may have had a case of defeatis interruptis

Yes! I gather the players on the French team were really coming unravelled at this point. Their CinC was not providing very good leadership and many of their less experienced players were not receiving enough guidance, or even orders in some cases.

The Battle of Vilna was just one of a whole series of appallng defeats that saw whole sections of the French Army falling into Russian hands, and French players resigning in disgust right left and centre.

The 1812 Campaign was abandoned a few weeks after Vilna as the French team had really lost any hope of getting close to Moscow.

It was after this that I bravely volunteered to change side and replace Napoleon for the Eylau Campaign and tried to restore some bottle into the French ranks.

quote:

I was involved in a similar thing using Sid Meir's Gettysburg to resolve tactical battles in a recreation of the Seven Days Battles in the US Civil War. The role playing is really fun. Check out the "reports" page. [url]www.aovkershaw.homestead.com[/url]

Ah! I played Gettysburg for a while. It was fun but lacked any proper command and control structure so the battles were totally chaotic for the most part with every player doing their own thing. Worked ok! for ACW but perhaps not for Napoleonic.

quote:

I don't know a whole lot about Napoleonic battles, but if you are looking for players for future scenarios. Let me know.

Oh! I dont' run these moderated games I just play in them occassionally.

If you are interested you need to visit the NHWC (Napoleonic Historical Wargame Club) website at http://nhwc.20m.com/

It includes a full battle report for the Battle of Vilna http://nhwc.20m.com/1812/vilna/vilna.htm

< Message edited by Didz -- 6/13/2004 11:05:56 PM >

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Post #: 112

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 2:11:57 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

I was not on target enough I guess :) The Warhammer figures are ok (still over priced), it's their models of tanks (or what they call tanks) that are sheer refuse.

I was asked to assemble one by a local. Paid me 40 bucks to do it well for him. I told him when I was done to not expect me to make another.
Lousy craftsmanship, parts that are over worked from model to model, not being made anew, just retread parts. Even getting paid well to make them was not enough for me.

And I have made models professionally, I know models hehe.

Played the rolegame Warhammer though, it was nicely thought out though.

If I was to game in miniatures, it would likely be 72nd scale based as there is just such a wealth of stuff open in that scale. Miniature soldiers would not have quite the level of detail of course, but sometimes you just don't get all that you want :)

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Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 113

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 3:11:01 AM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline

Hi!

I got into painting Historix Napoleonic figures when I was in my teens (a long time ago). From there I moved into 15mm ACW, Ancient and Napoleonic table top wargaming. What a blast, a ping pong table full of troops, 3 players aside, swiging beer and the stereo pumping out military music.

I've pointed literally thousands of minatures in 30 years. The last ones I did were 28mm Warhammer space marines. But Sarge is right, the price went through the roof, and this thing called computer wargaming started competing for my spare time....

Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 114

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 3:42:59 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

Wargame designers shoulnt care if people dont want to upgrade...its there loss,not the designers.

LOL you best wake up and smell the roses, it's quite a lot to do with both. Wargamers are a different breed of people/players, they aren't your techies types, they are hardcore grogs of the genre, not of the technolgoy to run them.

Pass up on the wargamers that aren't into tech advancement $$ as much as they are into wargame advancement $$ and you will have designers taking a loss in profits.

You can look at Les's statement as he is just one hard-nose that doesn't want to conform, but, there are many more of us out here that feel the same way. I'm not going to sink a few hundred dollars into a machine just to play a game with "pretty graphics". I've got a collection of board wargames and computer wargames that can last me the rest of my life.

If you really want to get "technical" about it though, there's really nothing NEW that has been released in years that isn't a copycat version of something that's already been done to death before. The mere changes are in the complextion of the games, moreso than in the playvalue of them. I have computer games with AI's much better than any I have seen in the present or the last five years.

For instance how many versions of Gary Grigsby's Pacific war is needed? What's he on now his 3rd or 4th remake of this very same game idea???

How many times are they going to remake the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich in different renditions, but, still the same game.

About the only game I've really enjoyed over the past umpteen years is Steel Panthers WaW series, so why do I need "Combat Leader"? Oh thas right it's a techie advance in graphics isn't it? ;)

I've been looking at "Battles in Normandy", so how much different is the outcome of it going to be over "Operation Crusader" or "Battle for Nomandy"??

I've got "Second Front", so why do I need another version of "War in Russia"??

I have TOAW elite, why do I need TOAW4?

I've been looking at Matrix games for awhile now, but, nothing compels me to purchase one over what I already have. Gawd knows I have more than I can or ever will finish as it is now.

The techie age likes "graphics" and really doesn't seem to care so much about complexity, which is sad. Even sadder that developers rely on the techie age for how they design games nowadays. Sad that no one in 20+ years has worked on an AI that really learns and presents a challenge to the player every game, except in a game of chess or checkers and maybe backgammon or card games. ;) You'd think someone would want to go down in history for the recognition of creating a wargaming AI or really any strategy gaming AI that could beat the players more times than the players could beat it.

But, at any rate, it's both the customers and the designers that makeup the wargaming market as a whole, most of us saw what happened to Avalon Hill and SPI, two of the best board gaming development companies out there for years and well now they are gone. So don't think it can't happen to the computer age of development companies as well.

(in reply to riverbravo)

Post #: 115

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 4:27:48 AM

EricGuitarJames

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline

ravin - I can only suggest you try HTTR. The command structure, the AI (both of the enemy and your subordinates), the combat modelling, the real-time nature of the game, and the overall 'feel' of the game are all superior to any wargame produced up to now. And it shouldn't break your average 'grognards' system (my old P3 650mhz system played it fine).

_____________________________

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Post #: 116

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 4:59:55 AM

mjk428

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

Wargame designers shoulnt care if people dont want to upgrade...its there loss,not the designers.

LOL you best wake up and smell the roses, it's quite a lot to do with both. Wargamers are a different breed of people/players, they aren't your techies types, they are hardcore grogs of the genre, not of the technolgoy to run them.

Pass up on the wargamers that aren't into tech advancement $$ as much as they are into wargame advancement $$ and you will have designers taking a loss in profits.

You can look at Les's statement as he is just one hard-nose that doesn't want to conform, but, there are many more of us out here that feel the same way. I'm not going to sink a few hundred dollars into a machine just to play a game with "pretty graphics". I've got a collection of board wargames and computer wargames that can last me the rest of my life.

If you really want to get "technical" about it though, there's really nothing NEW that has been released in years that isn't a copycat version of something that's already been done to death before. The mere changes are in the complextion of the games, moreso than in the playvalue of them. I have computer games with AI's much better than any I have seen in the present or the last five years.

For instance how many versions of Gary Grigsby's Pacific war is needed? What's he on now his 3rd or 4th remake of this very same game idea???

How many times are they going to remake the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich in different renditions, but, still the same game.

About the only game I've really enjoyed over the past umpteen years is Steel Panthers WaW series, so why do I need "Combat Leader"? Oh thas right it's a techie advance in graphics isn't it? ;)

I've been looking at "Battles in Normandy", so how much different is the outcome of it going to be over "Operation Crusader" or "Battle for Nomandy"??

I've got "Second Front", so why do I need another version of "War in Russia"??

I have TOAW elite, why do I need TOAW4?

I've been looking at Matrix games for awhile now, but, nothing compels me to purchase one over what I already have. Gawd knows I have more than I can or ever will finish as it is now.

The techie age likes "graphics" and really doesn't seem to care so much about complexity, which is sad. Even sadder that developers rely on the techie age for how they design games nowadays. Sad that no one in 20+ years has worked on an AI that really learns and presents a challenge to the player every game, except in a game of chess or checkers and maybe backgammon or card games. ;) You'd think someone would want to go down in history for the recognition of creating a wargaming AI or really any strategy gaming AI that could beat the players more times than the players could beat it.

But, at any rate, it's both the customers and the designers that makeup the wargaming market as a whole, most of us saw what happened to Avalon Hill and SPI, two of the best board gaming development companies out there for years and well now they are gone. So don't think it can't happen to the computer age of development companies as well.

I have to wonder how/why you anti-tech people ever purchased computers in the first place.

Yeah, I played some great games in the early 80's on the computer that technically were all I ever needed. However, I prefer optical & hard drives to tape drives. I prefer the mouse interface to just the keyboard. I prefer CD quality surround sound audio to beeps & squawks. And I prefer high-res multi-color battle maps to low-res monochrome.

I agee that not enough attention has been paid to things like playability & AI by the game designers. However, I haven't seen anyone advocating that graphics should trump all else. The question was, to paraphrase, "are the hardware requirements killing the wargame genre"? Those hardware requirements could just as easily be the result of advanced AI and improved user interface, as graphics. Graphics are just the most obvious and frequent example of why the specs get higher.

On one hand you have the several hundreds of dollars profit the extreme anti-tech 'grognards' represent and OTOH you have the many thousands of potential dollars profit of the average gamer. It seems an easy business decision to me. Especially when the anti-tech claim to already have all they need in their wargame library. It just doesn't seem to me reasonable that this subgroup be catered to.

As for the techie age being satisfied with just graphics, it's obvious that the people making such claims really don't know what is available. Full Spectrum Warrior on a $150 XBox blows awayComputer Ambush on the good old $1500 Apple - and it even costs $10 less than Computer Ambush did.

_____________________________

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Post #: 117

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 5:37:57 AM

Arjuna

Posts: 17785
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
If you really want to get "technical" about it though, there's really nothing NEW that has been released in years that isn't a copycat version of something that's already been done to death before. The mere changes are in the complextion of the games, moreso than in the playvalue of them. I have computer games with AI's much better than any I have seen in the present or the last five years.

ravinhood,

Do yourself a favour and check out HTTR. I know I'm blowing my own trumpet here, but as the reviewers say it is revolutionary. What is so revolutionary about it is its AI. It's the best in the business bar none. When combined with the hierarchical command system, orders delay and pausable continuous time game play you have a system which captures the real feel of operational warfare. You have an AI powerful enough that you can give an AI controlled subordinate an order and know that it will do a reasonable job of developing a plan, reacting and reasessing. This frees you up from all the micro-managing that so afflicts other wargames. Of course you can still micro-manage when and where you like, but you don't have to. Now that's NEW for wargames by any definition.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 118

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 7:38:28 AM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
I have to wonder how/why you anti-tech people ever purchased computers in the first place.

:thup: Great post.

Just to add, no vendor of any product will ever be beholden to people who chose not to buy. What's the point in any game maker reacting to comments from non-customers? Listening to those who are stuck in 1974 is as relevant to the game industry as my opinion on feminine hygene products.

Fog-of-war, WEGO, simultaneous turns, etc, these are all wargame innovations dependent on the PC. Clearer graphics and interfaces too. Someone mentioned that he never played a game because the graphics appealed, well I have probably missed a lot of games because the graphics/interface was too much work to bother with it.

I imagine conversations like this taking place with the last 5 guys making buggy whips, entirely oblivious that their position was irrelevant to the world and grumbling that innovation was killing transportation.

(in reply to mjk428)

Post #: 119

RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? - 6/14/2004 8:42:00 AM

riverbravo

Posts: 1320
Joined: 1/16/2003
From: Bay St Louis Ms.
Status: offline

Easy Eights were producing decent ww2 figures.The only downside being is the faces look a bit cartoonish but everything else is pretty good.

72nd scale isnt bad at all either.As Les said,72 scale has a lot of stuff thats easy to get a hold of.

The warhammer and WH 40k miniatures are great if you want to paint them.I still have interest in painting some of there stuff.Its a good change from doing military models.You get to use different colors and they are still flat colors.I HATE working with any type of gloss paint.Also citadel (same people who makes GW figures) makes pretty good paints and washes.BUT,like everything else its a bit pricey.

I saw a game at the local games day and these dudes were playing a ww2 miniatures game in 1/35 scale.They were using strait up models and figures and the table was HUGE.It was a bit to big IMO.They gave me a free set of skirmish rules and they really sucked.

_____________________________

I laugh at hurricanes!

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 120