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It's a disgrace - 6/8/2004 1:40:40 PM   
Samsonite

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Why would company buy rights for a game and then just leave it? I haven't heard any news about WiF-Computer Game for ages. Why don't Matrix sell the rights on to somebody who would really do something? WiF is one of the best strategy games in the world, so I think it's a dicgrace to not publish it and keep the fans waiting.
Post #: 1
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/8/2004 2:25:15 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Wow, that's a very judgemental post based on very little actual, factual information.....a game as complicated as WiF could take years to get right - have patience for pete's sake....

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to Samsonite)
Post #: 2
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/8/2004 3:47:28 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		I wouldnt worry about. WiF is in very good hands with matrix. It might take its time but in the end they most likely will deliver a superb product.

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
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(in reply to Samsonite)
Post #: 3
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/8/2004 4:54:16 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Samsonite, when they brought in the game, everyone KNEW it was not coming out tomorrow or the day after or the day after (repeat for 5 minutes or so at least).

It has already languished for several YEARS prior to arriving here, and that is because the literal translation of a complex major board game at the grand strategy level as a faithful representation of the original is not anyone's idea of a simple task.

It was likely easier to design War in the Pacific from nothing.

If you actually KNOW someone with the skill you think would make releasing this game a simple matter, I strongly suggest you get them to email Matrix Games officially. It might make them quite popular eh.

Otherwise, I would not assume Matrix Games is "cruelly sitting on a game, someone else could be doing".

If I had no restrictions on funds, and I was given control of the project, I would merely bring it back here, add my name to the credits, and assume the guys would smile more on coffee breaks.
But I doubt it would increase the speed dramatically.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 4
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/8/2004 5:39:23 PM   
Hirsch

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		At leat they have put up a website which promises that more information will be available soon. Four years ago in the Internet industry this would have been enough to raise large sums of venture capital ;-)

Honestly, I can only agree with what's been said before: the concept/title/brand is in good hands at Matrix. It might take a while until it hits the stores (and I'm awaiting it as eagerly as any of you), but that's just the way software development goes. Sounds prosaic, but most bottom lines do ...

< Message edited by Hirsch -- 6/9/2004 4:23:01 PM >

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 5
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 10:55:45 AM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Im expecting years, but it would be nice to get more regular updates. We a re easily pleased as long as we know that something is being done.

_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

- Shakespeare

(in reply to Hirsch)
Post #: 6
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 2:37:51 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Sadly, yes sadly, some games are just not going to appear soon.

Asking for regular updates though will not accomplish anything.

At best, if I was on the team working on this one, I would be inclined to say draw straws and pick the member who gets to come onto the forum and say something that says nothing merely to have made the appearance of having come and said something.

World in Flames was made yeeeeeeeeeears ago. It's not like the game is being created from nothing. But making a board game into a computer game is not always what you would call "easy".

If it was, I would already own several computer versions of board games that are dozens of times more "wargame" than most computer wargames out there.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to DoomedMantis)
Post #: 7
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 4:46:46 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		There are quite a few games coming out that ought to keep you busy for some time anyway....Empires in Arms, Guns of August, World at War, and Strategic Command 2....granted, none of these will be coming out "tomorrow" either, but they will be out alot sooner than Wif and should occupy your faculties of concentration for quite some time!

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 8
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 5:00:12 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		A disgrace? You mean like posting something not based on fact. When they took it over David posted that they had the code and had turned it over to the programmer and it would be months just for him to go through the code figuring out what the prior programmer had done. From there it would have to be tweaked, fixed and finished. Add to that the art, sound and everything else. It's not easy picking up someone else's mess especially with programming where there are many styles and ways to do the same thing. On top of that from what I know from following WIF before the code is probably a mess. I'm sure we'll start getting information when the programmer assigned has sorted through the code and is actually starting on moving forward with the project. To say that it's been shelved when you have no idea how many hours the programmer has been sifting through the code is pretty lame. Maybe you should buy the rights and show us how it's done properly and get the code finished in no time.

< Message edited by tiredoftryingnames -- 6/9/2004 10:02:24 AM >

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 9
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 5:35:41 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		And if I'm not mistaken, aren't they looking to have this game released with an AI for solo play?...If that's accurate, then that will be one hell of a bear to tame on a game of this scale....

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 10
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 5:37:03 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		The more I look at it, the more it seems Samsonite might have only come in to start off a thread that was doomed to end up looking like this.

It is actually surpising he hasn't been burned alive yet :)

It would be nice if he at least said something other than his initial post though.

I put it to you Samsonite, why does a person register on a forum, and then lead off with posts that anyone could easily describe as impolite or potentially hostile?

Your current post record is the only real disgrace.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 11
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 6:00:21 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		WARNING: Quotes Edited by Mziln

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samsonite

Why would company buy rights for a game and then just leave it? I haven't heard any news about WiF-Computer Game for ages. Why doesn’t Matrix sell the rights on to somebody who would really do something? WiF is one of the best strategy games in the world, so I think it's a disgrace to not publish it and keep the fans waiting.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

To say that it's been shelved when you have no idea how many hours the programmer has been sifting through the code is pretty lame. Maybe you should buy the rights and show us how it's done properly and get the code finished in no time.


Samsonite:

(Q) Why would company buy rights for a game and then just leave it?
(A) The list is very long and range from:
(Good) Wanting to provide a superior product after all our company reputation is involved.
to...
(Bad) So our company can eliminate similar products.


tiredoftryingnames:

Having been a programmer/programmer analyst/programmer consultant for 15 years (in both production programing and program maintence). I feel I can judge how long it takes to sift through the code.

The rule for alloted time required for any programing change is always the same. It should never exceed the amount of time required to write the original program.




Matrix will be at Origins. If you go ask them about the state of CWiF there. Then post your response here. If I was one of the Matrix staff planning to be at Origins. I would be preparing for Q&A (Questions & Answers). Especialy since there are so few TBS (Turn Based System) games with release dates.

I prefer to wait and have them get the game right. Rather than be disapointed with what might have been.

After all, I've been waiting since version 3.3 anyway.

(in reply to Samsonite)
Post #: 12
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 6:24:40 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		It seems Samsonite is burdened with alot of baggage....

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 13
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/9/2004 6:30:11 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		Time for the gorilla test.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 14
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/10/2004 4:56:15 PM   
mavraam


Posts: 436
Joined: 5/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

And if I'm not mistaken, aren't they looking to have this game released with an AI for solo play?...If that's accurate, then that will be one hell of a bear to tame on a game of this scale....


That's exactly what I was thinking when I first saw this post. The AI for this game will be brutally hard to program.

I could almost see releasing a non-AI version first then developing that as a second release.

_____________________________


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Post #: 15
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/10/2004 6:18:37 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Old discussion (the AI business).

Me I PLAN to play this solo, just haven't got that sort of time open to play it PBEM.

AI is not required, I PLAN to play it hotseat me vs me if I have to.

But I am a diehard grognard and I can accept that.

Releasing a game with no AI in today's world is a death sentence I guess. Just not enough Les the Sarge types to make the effort worth the effort. No money in it.

So inevitably it will need and get an AI.

Might be adequate, must suck. Personally I could care less, I won't be playing the AI. But I will still have to wait as long as it takes for the programmer to make one that satisfies him regardless.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to mavraam)
Post #: 16
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/10/2004 6:42:53 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		Well I played A3R and many other games solo all the time, so I would not have a problem playing a hotseat solitaire game of WiF....but we of the "old school" were weaned on such game play going back to the Tactics II - Kriegspeil days....for a new gaming audience however, having a viable AI will make it more marketable and that potential sales number cannot be ignored....

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 6/10/2004 11:45:47 AM >

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 17
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/11/2004 9:02:06 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		The key to playing solo is a bad memory. That way you can surprise yourself with a sneak attack.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 18
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/11/2004 11:45:01 PM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

The key to playing solo is a bad memory. That way you can surprise yourself with a sneak attack.



(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 19
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/12/2004 3:11:25 AM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		You'd have this one covered then


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

The key to playing solo is a bad memory. That way you can surprise yourself with a sneak attack.


_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

- Shakespeare

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 20
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/15/2004 4:14:33 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		What covered? What were we talking about?

(in reply to DoomedMantis)
Post #: 21
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/15/2004 5:07:28 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		Another key to solo play is to be an extraordinary bad player such as I.....this way both sides make an equal number of assinine mistakes....

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 22
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/22/2004 10:46:49 PM   
IronManBeta


Posts: 4132
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline 		I notice that David has written up a preview of Matrix at Origins this year and it says, in part, "Robert Crandall will be on hand to discuss Flashpoint: Germany and his work on the licensed World in Flames mega-wargame computer adaptation." I guess that means that I have been officially tapped as the new developer for this amazing title. Thank you David!

First let me say that we really appreciate the extensive feedback that has been posted here and I have been saving large swathes of it into my design notebook. Serious posts are taken seriously here! Keep it coming.

The core WIF team held a number of lengthy design sessions back in March to work out the big picture for this title. The holdup since has mainly related to clearing the decks of current projects. At the time I thought that I was just a few weeks away from delivering Flashpoint: Germany and that I would be into WIF full time shortly thereafter. Well, FPG still is not out (too many other games were ahead of it in the production spiral) but it will be top of the queue next week and that means I will finally be able to return to WIF. We are getting ready to move on a number of simultaneous development tracks to make up for lost time.

There are some major challenges with such a sprawling title and computer program. Documenting the existing code base and getting comfortable with it is / was a huge undertaking in itself. I plan to be posting though at least every couple of weeks from here on. Implementing the March design will not be a quick job, but I hope not to waste a minute of time either. David claims he gets email every day asking 'is it done yet?' and believe me, his pain is my pain too!

If any WIF'ers are planning to be at Origins this weekend, make absolutely sure that you look me up. I'm the tall handsome guy at the Matrix booth that is a dead ringer for Mel Gibson (hey, my wife swears its true!) and I would love to meet you personally and discuss ideas.

Cheers all, Rob.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 23
Cancon 2005 - 6/23/2004 1:04:50 AM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Origins... <mutter mutter... damned air fares...>

Does this mean that you'll be in Australia for Cancon in January 2005? That's the annual wargames convention in Canberra and there is usually a big WiF contingent Could be a good time to launch the game :)

(in reply to IronManBeta)
Post #: 24
RE: Cancon 2005 - 6/23/2004 1:33:09 AM   
IronManBeta


Posts: 4132
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline 		Wouldn't that be fun! Jan 05 is not all that far away though. Lets get some more of the battle fought first before we start planning the victory celebrations!

I'm sure David would love to fly us all out for a week of legendary Australian hospitality though when the time comes. David - are you listening? See, I didn't promise a ship date so you won't have to murder me this weekend!

Cheers, Rob.

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 25
RE: Cancon 2005 - 6/23/2004 4:02:14 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Until then any chances of some screenshots of the game on the WiF site (click on this link)

(in reply to IronManBeta)
Post #: 26
RE: Cancon 2005 - 6/24/2004 3:02:13 AM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Until then any chances of some screenshots of the game on the WiF site (click on this link)


They have yet to start the game seriously, no screenies likely for a few years at least.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 27
RE: Cancon 2005 - 6/24/2004 4:41:55 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

They have yet to start the game seriously, no screenies likely for a few years at least.


I could send them some screenshots from the demo (Version 7.66)

Graphics from the demo are excelent (IMO). Since production of the game was so far along, I wouldn't think there would be that much of a change. After all they had just (or just bout) finished the creation of Vichy France after France falls. After that it is mostly just streight forward game play.


Suggested Screenshots:

(1) The game maps for the Commonwealth (so you could see a good example of the convoy routes).

(2) from the Help pulldown under Units screenshots of...

(2a) Land Units
(2b) Air Units
(2c) Naval Units
(2d) Special Units

5 screenshots total for a start.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 6/24/2004 3:09:42 PM >

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 28
RE: Cancon 2005 - 6/29/2004 1:49:29 AM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		Are you talking about that A.I less beta? the graphics were dreadfull imo.I hope for the same quality as "War in the Pacific", they truly look great.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 29
RE: It's a disgrace - 6/29/2004 6:17:36 AM   
Arnir


Posts: 482
Joined: 10/12/2002
From: Alberta. In Texas.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertCrandall

I notice that David has written up a preview of Matrix at Origins this year and it says, in part, "Robert Crandall will be on hand to discuss Flashpoint: Germany and his work on the licensed World in Flames mega-wargame computer adaptation." I guess that means that I have been officially tapped as the new developer for this amazing title. Thank you David!

First let me say that we really appreciate the extensive feedback that has been posted here and I have been saving large swathes of it into my design notebook. Serious posts are taken seriously here! Keep it coming.

The core WIF team held a number of lengthy design sessions back in March to work out the big picture for this title. The holdup since has mainly related to clearing the decks of current projects. At the time I thought that I was just a few weeks away from delivering Flashpoint: Germany and that I would be into WIF full time shortly thereafter. Well, FPG still is not out (too many other games were ahead of it in the production spiral) but it will be top of the queue next week and that means I will finally be able to return to WIF. We are getting ready to move on a number of simultaneous development tracks to make up for lost time.

There are some major challenges with such a sprawling title and computer program. Documenting the existing code base and getting comfortable with it is / was a huge undertaking in itself. I plan to be posting though at least every couple of weeks from here on. Implementing the March design will not be a quick job, but I hope not to waste a minute of time either. David claims he gets email every day asking 'is it done yet?' and believe me, his pain is my pain too!

If any WIF'ers are planning to be at Origins this weekend, make absolutely sure that you look me up. I'm the tall handsome guy at the Matrix booth that is a dead ringer for Mel Gibson (hey, my wife swears its true!) and I would love to meet you personally and discuss ideas.

Cheers all, Rob.


Rob, thanks for the update. Although I'm currently waiting for WitP quite anxiously, I'm really looking forward to this one. I bought the board game and expansions (several times) and I'm looking forward to being able to play it without taking over the apartment's parking lot. Good luck with the project.

_____________________________


(in reply to IronManBeta)
Post #: 30
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