Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >>

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

- 12/15/2001 1:19:00 PM

Major Destruction

Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Price:
Oops - just noticed that the Poland OOB's two 46mm GL squads both have the same number of men (4) even though one has two tubes. I think 091 (46mm GL Sqd x2) needs to have 8 men,
[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]

No, that second tube should not be there. It appears that the second tube has been added in error. There was only one tube per platoon.
Remove it.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 31

- 12/15/2001 1:47:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

My original intent was a simple, minimal unit data modification set of OOBs to correct light mortar indirect fire ROF and medium/heavy mortar indirect fire accuracy. Unfortunately, there are a number of possible TOE & formation issues with mortars in the v7.0 OOBs - so my original goal is impossible to achieve in a simple manner at this time. There are far more issues here than meets the eye at first glance, while the number of mortar tubes per infantry platoon/company is one issue, so is the number of tubes/units per section/platoon of artillery. Thus the entire situation quickly becomes mired down in differences between TOEs for different countries and their different needs. On top of this, some countries have little or no room in the Units portion of the OOB to allow for simple across the board solutions that require creation of one or more new units. While I at first thought the problem was restricted to only a few countries light mortars, I am now discovering that this is not entirely the case - it is the general case but there are exceptions. While for light mortars, in all but a few cases, I think the single tube per unit solution is quite acceptable; for medium/heavy mortars it definately is not from a C&C standpoint. Let me be very clear here, beyond compatibility with v7.0 scenarios and campaigns my *primary* concern with any corrections/changes I make is to preserve correct interaction with the C&C system as much as is possible. Given the complexity of this undertaking and the number of individual differences between OOBs, I'm going to start a series of posts for each separate OOB, one at a time beginning with ANZAC, and address each one individually. I plan to use the v6.1 OOB formations and number of tubes per unit/formation as the basis for all grouping and number of tubes issues and the v7.0 OOB unit data (along with any special concerns for new v7.0 formations) as the basis for all unit data. I hope that many of you who are interested in this issue will assist me in developing workable solutions for each OOB. Hopefully for special questions and problems Paul will have a moment or two to spare to clarify things. Thanks,
Brian [ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 32

- 12/15/2001 11:22:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

This is the first in, hopefully, a series of posts created for the express purpose of examining in detail the mortar units and formation requirements for each OOB and deriving possible solutions for any noted problems.
The v6.1 OOBs will be the primary source for formation requirements and number of tubes per formation data. The v7.0 OOBs will be the primary source for individual unit data along with any v7.0 specific formations. The goal in these posts are to develop a specification for a OOB modifications to the v7.0 OOBs that represents mortars as accurately as possible given known TOEs especially in regards to rates of fire and accuracy in both direct and indirect roles without compromising C&C behavior. With all that said, here's the v6.1 summary of the ANZAC mortar requirements: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs Nation: ANZAC
1012 - Mech Inf Plt - requires 066 3" Mort Sec x1 (single tube)
1016 - Pioneer Plt - requires 128 2" Mortar Team x1 (single tube)
1033 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 066 3" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes)
1045 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 066 3" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes ea)
1079 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1093 Mortar (see Formation #1093 below)
1080 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1081 - Mech Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1082 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1083 - Commando Troop - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1084 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1093 - Mortar - requires 066 3" Mort Sec x1 (single tube)
1126 - NZ Support Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1127 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 128 2" Mortar Team x2 (two tubes)
1128 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 067 4.2" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes)
1129 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 067 4.2" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes ea) For reference, the v6.1 ANZAC Mortar Data is: Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs Nation: ANZAC
Unit#: 066
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 35 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#:067
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 83 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#:128
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 242 Ammo: HE 40 Summary of v7.0 ANZAC Mortar Requirements:
Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: ANZAC 1011 - Motor Inf Plt - requires 1x 066 3in Mort Sec
1012 - Mech Inf Plt - requires 1x 066 3in Mort Sec
1016 - Pioneer Plt - requires 1x 128 2in Mortar Team
1033 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 066 3in Mort Sec
1045 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 066 3in Mort Sec
1079 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1093 Mortar (see F#1093 below)
1080 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1082 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1083 - Commando Troop - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1084 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1093 - Mortar - requires 1x 045 3in Mortar
1126 - NZ Support Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1127 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 128 2in Mortar Team
1128 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 067 4.2in Mort Sec
1129 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 2x 067 4.2in Mort Sec Summary of v7.0 ANZAC Mortar Unit Data:
Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: ANZAC Unit#: 045
Name: 3in Mort
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 37 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50 Unit#: 066
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50 Unit#: 067
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 83 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 86 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30 Unit#: 128
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 57 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 107 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 242 Ammo: HE 40 Summary of differences: Possible Problem #1:
As you can plainly see from the above (*laugh* ok not so plainly) the first issue is twofold, the v7.0 1011 Motor Inf Plt now has a mortar attached at the platoon level. However, by default it is set to the 066 unit (3in Mort Sec) with two tubes, and the Motor Inf Co still has an attached 1033 Med Mortar Sec which has another 066 unit. This implies that the v7.0 Motor Inf Co now has quite a few more tubes than the v6.1 company. I think the 1011 Motor Inf Plt formation should have the attached mortar set by default to the 045 unit (granted this is no big deal since you can do it from the purchase screen) and, more importantly, the 1084 Motor Inf Co formation should have the attached 1033 Med Mortar Sec removed. This would, I think, satisfy the intent of the v7.0 change here which, I believe, was to distribute the company mortars to the platoon level. Possible Problem #2:
This one is admittedly trivial, but since I'm attempting to be thorough: The 1012 Mech Inf Platoon has an attached 066 unit (two tubes) by default - I think it might need to be a 045 unit (single tube) - once again though this is trivial since it can be changed by the player in the purchase screen. Possible Problem #3:
The 1016 Pioneer Plt has an attached unit #128 2in mortar team. Under v6.1 this was a single tube, however under v7.0 this is a dual tube unit. I think what needs to happen here is to restore unit #128 to a single tube version and modify formation #1127 Lt Mortar Sec to have two units, each of type 128. Granted this somewhat violates my 'minimize C&C point cost change' rule - but as has been pointed out before - most country's light mortars are used as often as not in a direct fire role. However, the ANZAC OOB does have plenty of space to add new units, so a new two tube light mortar unit could be added specificly for use with formation #1127. Mortar Mod Changes:
Applying the 'Mortar Mod' changes should be simple here - only the 066 and 067 units would need the modification applied, as would any newly added two tube light mortar unit intended as a partial solution to Possible Problem #3 above. Summary:
Unless someone finds and/or raises any further issues with the ANZAC Mortars, I think the above pretty much wraps it up. Comments, critiques, questions all welcome. Please let me know what you think. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 33

- 12/15/2001 11:28:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

This is the second post in the examination of v7.0 mortars by OOB. First an overview of the v6.1 Belgium OOB with respect to mortars: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Belgium
1008 - Rifle Plt - requires 060 50mm Mort Sec x1
1022 - Mortar Sec - requires 026 3in Mort Sec x2
1041 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1042 - Infantry Co+ - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1043 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1046 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1047 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 027 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1048 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 027 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1068 - Mortar Plt - requires 2x 026 3in Mort Sec x2 Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Belgium Unit#:025
Name: 60mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 24 Avail: May '40 End: '40
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 243 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#:026
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 35 Avail: Jul '40 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#:027
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Jan '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#:060
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '30 End: '40
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 243 Ammo: HE 40 The v7.0 OOB holds the following information: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs Nation: Belgium 1008 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 060 50mm Mort Sec
1022 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 026 3in Mort Sec
1041 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1042 - Infantry Co+ - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1046 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1047 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 027 4.2in Mort Sec
1048 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 027 4.2in Mort Sec
1068 - Mortar Plt - requires 2x 026 3in Mort Sec Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs Nation: Belgium Unit#: 025
Name: 60mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 66 Avail: May '40 End: '40
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 2: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 3: 243 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 026
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jul '40 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50 Unit#: 027
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 88 Avail: Jan '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30 Unit#: 060
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 29 Avail: Jan '30 End: '40
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 243 Ammo: HE 40 Potential problems found: Just one potential problem noted, there does not seem to be any reason to multiply the 025 unit's number of tubes - it can only be obtained as a replacement for the 060 unit which is a single tube unit. Unless some additional TOE information has come to light in this respect, I believe the 025 unit should be restored to a single tube version. Applying the 'Mortar Mod' changes:
Very straightforward here, only the 026 and 027 units need to be modified with the 'Mortar Mod' changes. Summary:
Only a single possible problem of note, and it seems straightforward to repair if it truly is a problem. As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcome. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 34

- 12/15/2001 11:33:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

The v6.1 reference summary for Bulgaria OOB mortars follows: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs Nation: Bulgaria
1007 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 051 47mm Mortar Sec x2
1008 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr x2
1012 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr x2
1044 - Mot Co Recon - requires 1x 1012 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1012 above)
1170 - Cav Suppt Sqdrn - requires 1x 1008 Med Mortar Plt (see F#1008 above) Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Bulgaria Unit#: 005
Name: 81mm Stokes Mtr
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 44 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 010
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Mar '41 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 019
Name: 81mm Mtr Team
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 43 Avail: Feb '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 051
Name: 47mm Mortar Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '30 End: '41
Weapon 1: 116 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40 The v7.0 OOB versions are as follows: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Bulgaria 1007 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 051 47mm Mortar Sec
1008 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr
1012 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr
1044 - Mot Co Recon - requires 1x 1012 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1012 above)
1170 - Cav Suppt Sqdn - requires 1x 1008 Med Mortar Plt (see F#1008 above) Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Bulgaria Unit#: 005
Name: 81mm Stokes Mtr
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 010
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 54 Avail: Mar '41 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 019
Name: 81mm Mtr Team
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 40 Avail: Feb '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 051
Name: 47mm Mortar Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 58 Avail: Jan '30 End: '41
Weapon 1: 116 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 116 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Possible Problems noted: Possible Problem #1: Crew sizes for both units #010 and #051 should probably be 8. It appears they weren't multipled in the conversion from single to double tube units. Possible Problem #2: Unit #019 is a possible replacement for unit #005, however it is a single tube unit while 005 is a double tube unit. Unit #019 should probably be converted to a double tube unit. Conversion notes for 'Mortar Mod':
This should be an easy conversion, both units 010 and 051 (after size correction) can be converted using the light mortar conversion process and both units 005 and 019 (after number of tubes and associated corrections) can be converted using the medium/heavy conversion process. Summary:
The Bulgaria OOB is a simple one with respect to mortar units and formation requirements. Other than the two minor possible problems noted above, there doesn't seem to be any major issues here. As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcome. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 35

- 12/15/2001 11:36:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

This time it's Canada, and the background information from the v6.1 OOB follows: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Canada 1061 - Infantry Plt - requires 085 2in Mortar Team x1
1062 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1063 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1153 - Med Mortar - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec x1
1154 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec x2
1155 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 3in Mort Sec x2
1156 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 087 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1157 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 087 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1175 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1154 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1154 above) Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Country: Canada Unit# 085
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '30 End: '36
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 154 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 086
Name: 3in Mortar Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 35 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 087
Name: 4.2in Mortar Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40 The v7.0 data summary follows: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Canada 1061 - Infantry Plt - requires 1x 085 2in Mortar Team
1062 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1063 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1153 - Med Mortar - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec
1154 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec
1155 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 3in Mort Sec
1156 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 087 4.2in Mort Sec
1157 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 087 4.2in Mort Sec
1175 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1154 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1154 above) Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Canada Unit#: 085
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 30 Avail: Jan '30 End: '36
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 154 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 086
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50 Unit#: 087
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 86 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30 Potential Problems: The only potential problem I see here is that both versions of the Infantry Co (formations 1062 and 1063) picked up an extra medium mortar tube in the conversion. It should be noted however, that the Airborne Co still has the same number of tubes as in v6.1. Assuming that no new TOE data has come to light making this an appropriate change, I believe that unit #086 should be restored to a single tube unit and that a new double tube 3in Mortar unit be created and made the default for the formations requiring two tubes. Conversion notes for 'Mortar Mod':
If a new double tube unit is created to address the above noted potential problem, conversion should be easy using the medium/heavy mortar conversion techniques for the new unit and for unit #087. Summary:
Operating under the theory that it's more compliant with scenarios and campaigns to leave units at their v6.1 configuration where a new, additional, unit configuration is called for - the simple addition of a dual tube 3in Mortar unit to the Canada OOB should address any mortar related problems there. As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcomed. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 36

- 12/15/2001 11:45:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

This time, the Czechoslavakia OOB; first the v6.1 summary: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Czechoslavakia 1034 - Ind Rifle Plt - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team x1
1036 - Ind Mech Co - requires 1x 1150 Lt Mortar Sec (note it also has 3x F#1034)
1084 - Rifle Company - requires 1x 1167 Lt Mortar Platoon
1148 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 8cm Mort Sqd x2
1149 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 133 8cm Mort Sqd x2
1150 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team x2
1167 - Lt Mortar Plt - requires 2x 132 5cm Mort Sqd x2 Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Country: Czechoslavakia Unit# 024
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Aug '44 End: '45
Weapon 1: 199 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 242 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 132
Name: 5cm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 230 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 133
Name: 8cm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 2 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 43 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40 A summary of the v7.0 OOB versions of the above: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Czechoslavakia 1034 - Ind Rifle Plt - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team
1036 - Ind Mech Co - requires 1x 1150 Lt Mortar Sec (also has 3x F1034)
1084 - Rifle Company - requires 1x 1167 Lt Mortar Plt
1148 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 8cm Mort Sqd
1149 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 133 8cm Mort Sqd
1150 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team
1167 - Lt Mortar Plt - requires 2x 132 5cm Mort Sqd Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Czechoslavakia Unit#: 024
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 57 Avail: Aug '44 End: '45
Weapon 1: 199 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 199 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 242 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 132
Name: 5cm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 57 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 230 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 133
Name: 8cm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 2 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 80 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40 Potential Problems: #1: Formation 1034 (Ind Rifle Plt) recieved a boost of an extra light mortar tube. This means that formation 1036 (Ind Mech Co), which still has an attached Lt Mortar Section of two tubes, now has a total of 8 tubes instead of 5. Unless this is intentional, I believe unit #024 should be restored to a single tube unit and a new double tube unit be added to the OOB for use by formations 1150 and 1167. Alternatively, #024 should be restored to a single tube unit and formations 1150 and 1167 should be modified to use the correct number of single tube units. While the use of single tube units exclusively here would double the C&C cost when used in an indirect fire role, given the nature of these particular light mortar units, I'm not overly concerned with such a cost increase in this case.
Still, the space does exist in the OOB, and for consistencies sake, it might be worth creating a new double tube unit rather than modifying the formations. #2: Related to #1, the unit #132 - 5cm Mort Sqd - should recieve the same treatment as unit #024 if modification/correction is deemed necessary. Summary:
This OOB has a couple potential problems but they are all related to the doubling of a pair of light mortar units and can easily be corrected by either adding two new units to the OOB or modifying the appropriate formations. However it is worth noting that this multiple dependancy situation involving mortar sections/platoons and infantry platoons/companies is likely to reoccur again and again - where possible given OOB space limitations, a consistent treatment of these problems would seem preferable. Once again, comments, critiques, and questions are welcomed. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 37

- 12/15/2001 11:51:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

In this installment we will examine our first hellspawned OOB with respect to the mortar issues. The Nationalist China OOB not only has quite a few mortar units, but pay close attention to the v6.1 unit data and you'll soon discover evidence that someone has addressed part of the mortar issues before. No offense to anyone intended, but the earlier modifications have created a bit of a nightmare when it comes to finding and applying a unified, fair, non-OOB specific, solution to the overall problem of the unit multiplier not functioning. If anyone knows why a few OOBs were singled out for special treatment many versions ago and what guidlines and goals the modifications were supposed to have I'd *really* like to know. Of course we'll probably never know why the solution wasn't carried over across the board to all OOBs. With that off my chest, hang on to your hats and sanity because here comes the v6.1 data summary: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Nationalist China 1007 - Motor Rifle Co - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec
1024 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 089 45mm Mort Sec x2
1025 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd x2
1035 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd x2
1038 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd x2
1044 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd x2
1082 - X Force Plt - requires 1x 022 60mm Mort Sqd x1
1083 - X Force Coy - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Country: Nationalist China Unit# 022
Name: 60mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 52 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 236 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 023
Name: 81mm Mortar Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 43 Avail: Nov '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 227 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 024
Name: 4.2in Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6 (note: weight 106)
Speed: 1 Radio: 70 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Feb '44 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 082
Name: Knee Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 20 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 216 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 216 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 12 Unit# 083
Name: NC Tp 27 GL Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 17 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 084
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '37 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 085
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 25 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 096 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 2: 096 Ammo: HE 20
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 12 Unit# 086
Name: Stokes Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 321 (text 321)
Cost: 44 Avail: Jan '30 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 087
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 320 (text 320)
Cost: 43 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 088
Name: 82mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 7 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 8177 (text 8177)
Cost: 44 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 089
Name: 45mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 12
Speed: 8 Radio: 0 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 150 Ammo: HE 48
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40 The summary of the v7.0 changes follows; note that Paul did attempt to bring some of the units into coherence: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Nationalist China 1007 - Motor Rifle Co - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec
1024 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 089 45mm Mortar Sec
1025 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd
1035 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd
1038 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd
1044 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd
1082 - X Force Plt - requires 1x 022 60mm Mort Sqd
1083 - X Force Coy - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Nationalist China Unit#: 022
Name: 60mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 52 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 70 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 2: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 3: 236 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 023
Name: 81mm Mortar Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 1 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 80 Avail: Nov' 43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 227 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 227 Ammo: HE 40 Unit#: 024
Name: 4.2in Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6 (note weight 106)
Speed: 1 Radio: 70 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 84 Avail: Feb '44 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30 Unit# 082
Name: Knee Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 47 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 216 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 216 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 12 Unit# 083
Name: NC Tp 27 GL Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 25 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 084
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 28 Avail: Jan '37 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 085
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 50 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 096 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 096 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 6 Unit# 086
Name: Stokes Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 321 (text 321)
Cost: 76 Avail: Jan '30 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50 Unit# 087
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 320 (text 320)
Cost: 76 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 088
Name: 82mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 14 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 8177 (text 8177)
Cost: 38 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 057 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 089
Name: 45mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 12
Speed: 8 Radio: 0 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 52 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 150 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 150 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 40 Potential Problems:
Where to begin??? I'll start off by ignoring the v7.0 changes for the moment and first address the v6.1 oddities. Oddity #1: It's easy to see where the 45mm and 60mm light mortar units were intended to be used, but what about all of the other ones? Take, for example, unit 082 - Knee Mort Sqd, (2 tubes) crew 8, cost 20?? - usable in place of the unit 089 - 45mm Mort Sec, (1 tube) crew 3, cost 21? Or perhaps it was intended for use in place of unit 022 in an multiplied x2 configuration - once again twice the manpower and firepower for the same cost. Oddity #2: Unit 024 - the only 4.2in Mortar Squad in the entire set of OOBs as far as I can find that has a Weight requirement of 106. Even stranger, it doesn't use some exotic weapon with special requirements - it uses a standard US issue M2 heavy mortar - which the US Army has no problem toting around without towing.... I could likely go on quite awhile ranting about the v6.1 and earlier Nationalist China OOB(s) but I'd better save some for the Communist China and Japanese OOBs which also recieved some special and odd treatment sometime in the past. And now to a very small list of potential problems from Paul's v7.0 modifications (all, or most of these have been previously listed in the More Mortar Musings thread): #1: Unit 023 has a crew of 1 - this looks like a simple typo - it should be 10 I believe. #2: Unit 088 has half the cost of unit 087 - it likely should cost 76. In the collision between two different modification types with similar goals, there's at least one overall question that arises and needs to be addressed: What should the size be of a unit created by combining two size 0 crew 4 units? The previous modifications to the OOBs changed the size to 1, Paul's modifications leave the size alone (at 0). Summary:
Someone with more knowledge about the Nationalist Chinese TOE and WWII history needs to take a look at both the v6.1 and v7.0 OOBs and give their insight. I think what we're seeing here with the v6.1 OOBs is that someone in the past attempted to address the incorrect direct fire behavior of multiplied units - but since their 'solution' was only applied to sporadic units within one or two OOBs (it really looks like someone else entirely worked on the earlier Japanese OOB) it has made it difficult for a layman to figure out just what the data for some units should be - I'm still mystified as to why only some units were modified. As always (and in this case with great hope and anticipation) comments, critiques, and questions are welcome. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 38

- 12/16/2001 2:35:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

WOW!! Thank you Brian...This is outstanding stuff!

_____________________________

http://www.matrixgames.com/images/sig-logo-02.gif

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 39

- 12/16/2001 7:48:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

OK as to the US Mortars .. first some references
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/60mm.htm
]http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/81mm.htm]
]http://www.rt66.con/~korteng/SmallArms/4pt2M2.htm]
as we can see from the above referneces the US 60mm Infantry Mortar was by doctrine just as likely to be assigned individually as grouped at company level .. and as we see the 60mm has a WP round for smoke.
Not all small infantry mortars are created equal please note the small charge and short range of the German 50mm as compared to the Russian and Belgium Mortars as described in this reference
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm
I hope this is the kind of info that will help you Brian to get the US mortars into reasonable shape [ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ] [ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ] [ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 40

- 12/16/2001 8:08:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Penetrator per your concern about the effectiveness of mortars v artillery see the discussion in the link above for the US 81mm mortar ... they compare the various types of HE rounds with their equivalent effect to tube arty.

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 41

- 12/16/2001 8:49:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Some additional thoughts and info :
Given the short range and basic design on the 46mm ,50mm, and 2 inch mortar .. particularly the the Japanese knee mortar .. I question the actual ability of these weapons to do true indirect fire . I base this on two primary considerations , 1) no sights suitable for indrect fire (unlike the US 60mm mortar), and 2) no mobile radio communications at the infantry platoon level to call for indirect fire, as well as no trained personel to call the indirect fire at platoon level.. I suspect from all I can reference, that aside from the US infantry platoons with hand held walkie talkies and actual training in calling indirect fire at the Platoon and squad leader level,..that with most nationalites that used these weapons,most of these weapon were primairly used as grenade launchers.. The Japanese knee mortar does not even have sights per se and the Polish 46mm is outright called a Grenade launcher .. something to look into .. I think we can continue to let them have indirect fire capability despite the lack of communication assets in most cases but the Japanese and Polish weapons need to be looked at , unless references to the contrary can be found.. at any rate some references on national doctrine...
http://www.poeland.com/tanks/artillery/doctrine.html http://tigertank.com/aslcrossroads/tactical/arty.htm also if you look at the panzerfaust link ( as well as the technical specs for the US mortars) in the above post you will see that the larger mortars ( 81mm and 120mm and 4,2 inch ,3 inch )are not accurately represented in the range department.. as it stands most medium mortars tend to be sort of standardized in range .. while in fact the 80,81,82 mm types had ranges that varied widely with the US and Russian 81 and 82 having about half again the range of the German mortar until very late in the war.

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 42

- 12/17/2001 7:39:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Changes needed in the US OOB are as follows Unit # 109
Name 60mm M2 Mortar Team
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 4 size 0 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 90 Icon 66 lbm 56
Cost 35 Available Jan '40 end'49
Weapon #1 030 Ammo HE 60
Weapon #2 226 Ammo HE 60
This single 60mm Mortar Unit can fill the needs currently represented by Unit 109 and 110 However it will need smoke ammo to represent the WP capability of the weapon . It may be necesary to change the class on the 60mm to 05 Mortar to better reflect the weapons capability with smoke , but if that changes the 60mm as far as it being called by the Platoon leader .. then don't, skip the smoke instead , because it certainly shouldn't be available for general arty to FO's ect ... this maybe a game engine limit thing, I don't know .. in short it shoud have smoke (WP) but it should not be available for call outside the assigned company/platoon either. However it has been my experience that the Platoon leader only assignment function is not exactly working well so if that is still the case, then mabey the most accurate way to portray the weapon is changing it's class to have smoke .. any ideas anybody? Unit #111
Name 60mm M19 Mortar Team
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 4 Size 0 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 91 Icon 66 lbm 56
Cost 35 Avail Jan43 to end 49
Weapon #1 217 Ammo HE 60
Weapon @2 150 Ammo HE 60
Again this weapon will need smoke ammo to reflect the WP capabilty .. again possibly by changing class to 05 Mortar

Unit #110 can now be
Name 81mm Mortar
Class 05 Mortar
Crew 5 Size 1 ROF 7
Speed 4 Radio 90 Icon 67 lbm 57
Cost 42 Avail Jan '40 end 49
Weapon #1 056 Ammo HE 40
Weapon #2 150 Ammo HE 60

Unit #114
Name Arm Mortar Squad
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 8 Size 1 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 91 Icon 66 lbm 57
Cost 65 Avail Jan 42 end'49
Weapon #1 030 Ammo HE 80
Weapon #2 226 Ammo HE 60
Weapon #3 226 Ammo HE 60
This unit will also need smoke to represent WP Ammo

Units #112 and # 113 are OK Formations needing changing are #1073 needs Unit #109 added

#1076 Needs Mortar section deleted #1078 Needs Unit # 109 or #114 Added #1079 Needs light Mortar sec deleted #1081 should now have option for either #109 or #114 I think this is automatic # 1086 needs to be deleted #1122 needs to be changed to unit # 110 #1139 needs light mortar section deleted This should put light mortars in the US Army Platoons at Platoon Level and remove them from Company Level Formations. Please note I changed the Rifle assignmets ( weapon #2) from single rifles to 3X Garands or Carbines, Hopefully this will better reflect the armament of the Troops. This maybe something that should be checked on all Nationalites

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 43

- 12/17/2001 8:46:00 AM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

Had to take a day off after the Nationalist China OOB - still unsure what needs to happen there. AmmoSgt - I see where that secondary infantry weapon x3 or x5 has been used in the Japanese light mortars in the v6.1 OOB - can someone explain to me how that works? How does it differ from a normal main infantry weapon in slot 3 or 4? With regards to the calling in fire missions for light mortar units - I am pretty sure that formation leader restriction does not work. No matter where I attach the light mortar units it seems I can call them using any FO. If this function of the engine is no longer working and if smoke rounds for the US 60mm mortar were the common case in the WWII era, then moving the US 60mm mortar to the 05 - Mortar class makes sense. The Korean war references for the US light mortars do seem to indicate that the 60mm mortar was often deployed to the platoon level - however I'm really unsure if it was common WWII practice. If it was common WWII practice, how common was it? Enough that it should be the default choice? One thing in favor of single tube units is that it gives more freedom of choice to both scenario designers and players when it comes to recreating a historical or semi-historical force mix. However there are two other issues of importance: #1 for light mortars used in the direct fire role, the grouping of multiple tubes into a single unit not only seems to reflect national doctrine for certain countries, but also is *apparently* more survivable in the game. I say apparently because I don't know of any comprehensive test data that supports this. Yet it is obvious from certain OOBs that others with some degree of knowledge about it considered it a worthwhile addition. #2 for medium/heavy mortars used in the indirect fire role, single tube units are much more costly in C&C points when ordering fire missions. This can be somewhat mitigated by using the mortar units themselves to call in fire - but that doesn't help in the case where an FO is calling in fire missions on a point he has under observation. I'm coming around to the belief that the 'default' case should be single tube per unit but some OOBs should have additional units (new ones if possible/necessary) to represent multi-tube units. There is, however, one other possible representation that *may* be useful - perhaps batteries (but not sections) of medium and heavy mortars should be company formations with an FO as company commander and each two or three tube section in the battery as a platoon in the battery 'company'. This would give the battery FO's a larger store of C&C points - granted only a few extra points - but it, together with using the battery section leader's C&C points for calling fire missions - would help in this area at least for the initial call. We're on the border of some areas concerning the overall artillery simulation in SP:WaW - when we start getting into doctrinal issues there are a number of changes that would be nice - however I'm not at all sure that any degree of real change in this respect is possible with the engine. I really think for any significant changes we'll need to wait for Combat Leader. Best we can do here is try to achieve small improvements without upsetting play balance. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 44

- 12/17/2001 9:37:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Brian Yes spliting up the Hvy weapons Platoon/company as needed is the standard US Practice .. the Machine Guns at Platoon level are from the same Heavy weapons Platoon as the 60mm mortars and are split off and disributed under the same doctrine , the Airborne single tube Mortars at platoon level ( that have been double and tripled with this "fix" , and can only be fixed by the creation of single tube units ) are from the same Heavy Weapons Platoon and same doctrine .. the Single tube Mortars in the Mech Infantry Platoon , the "Arm Mortar Sec" same doctrine same basic TO&E with tracks instead of trucks ..
The Massive HQ formations at both Co and BN with their AT guns and bazookas and 11 HMG are all farmed out as needed at the descrection of the CO .
The truely wierd part of this is that the US is the only natiuon in the game with the Portable Radio assets to actually have suport weapons like Mortars and HMG set up remotely and still controled centrally .. In short every formation in the US OOB aside from the Leg Infantry and Rangers is set up with the correct flexibility. The light Mortar and the Rifle Grenade are key elements of US Platoon doctrine , ( don't get me started on the removing of US Rifle Grenades from all US units post '43) The M2 had a special base plate for Direct fire and The M19's only diifference was a Trigger , both to facilitate direct fire .. the US was the first nation to design and deploy a Modern dedicated Grenade Launcher and has gone on to make it a Basic feature of the Infantry rifle .. all due to the basic doctrine of giving the Grunt a significant HE capability.
Actually I think the other nations should be documenting and offering references that the 50mm type had the kind of indirect fire capability that is represented in the game and that the Platoon leader had some way of calling it or directing it if they are not in the same Hex.
But I don't think that will happen.
The US had the flexibility , the doctrine, and the technology to not only distribute the Heavy weapons at both Comapny and Batallion level to lower echelons but also to co-ordinate and control them .
As to the Rifles .. if it is in any slot other than slot 1 , it is a single weapon per unit .. In the case of most Crew served weapons, AT guns and up to inculde medium and Heavy mortars , and on board arty , the convention is, if you need rifle fire , then you must dismount the crew from the weapon , fire the rifles and then remount the weapon , in full accoradance with suppresion rules ect.. however with MG's and infantry mortars the additional "crew" are strictly ammo carriers and drop the ammo at the weapons site when the weapon is set up and use individual weapons .. thus they are armed with slot #2 weapons .. sort of a compromise within the game engine, since a MG and Light Mortar cannot fire during the turn they move, a Turn being 2-3 minutes and set up time for MG's and Infantry mortars being less than 30 seconds . The compromise being the lesser of three evils of letting a crew served weapon fire while moving, or not having any ability to fire at all the turn they move. It looks like a lot of crew served infantry weapons have been shorted in the slot #2 weapon area , and it isn't necesary to do that because the OOB's have 2X and 3X rifles exactly for that purpose. Since you are back from break will you be doing the US Marines they have the same basic structure and doctrine as regards the distribution of Heavy Platoon/Company weapons, shall i do them ? [ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 45

- 12/17/2001 10:03:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Brian another quick point on recalclating the cost of the triple mortar units .. I have a copy of the spread sheet from hell with the calculation formula for the units .. and here is the rub .. the different weapon slots have slighly different values in the overall scheme of things .. which is why a weapon will have a slihghtly different cost if it is in a diferent slot .. something the triple single tubes in a combined unit doesn't really do well in calculation wise .. the values differ because the different slots all have slightly different arcs of fire and other features .. so I think the best way is to manually mulitply by the number of tubes to get the correct price ( ie should you decide to keep the totally ahisterical 9 mortar German Infantry company)
As to the medium and Heavy mortars I think 2 Mortars per section for everybody but the Soviets , with the Soviets at 3 should work .. I converted one of the US units in the above post back to a single 81mm , since it has always had a single in the OOB till now and it was causing a duplicate formation in the arty purchase screen not having a single .. In fact that single 81mm should be an option in the Ranger formation.
There is a single tube 81mm in the US Marines OOB and it is needed , or was Needed for some unit I forget which, since i haven't worked on that yet. So until somebody figures out for sure what changed there, don't change it, or you will probably get the dublicate formation problem in the buy screen somewhere.
In all this have you given any thought to correcting some of the specification problems , primarily range, with some of the mortar units.. this "all 3inch/80mm/81mm/82mm having the same range" has never been really addressed, we had hoped to get to it on the Tiger Team OOB scrub .. but ran out of time..

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 46

- 12/17/2001 10:08:00 AM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

I'm planning on examining the German OOB next (out of order from my previous posts but it is important due to the inability to add any units to the OOB since it is full). I'd very much like to see your thoughts on the US Marine OOB's mortar units. I think we're getting closer to finding a workable overall approach, just need to make sure that there are no other 'traps' lurking in the OOBs for the nations that haven't been analyzed in this thread as yet. As regards to mortar weapon ranges and other characteristics that may differ between different types of similar sized mortars - it hasn't been high on my agenda thus far, but I agree that it is definately worth looking into. Still I'd like to do this one step at a time - first get the units and formations straightened out - and then look at the other aspects. I've also had some thoughts that we may want to examine FO costs and rarity for the various OOBs, as well as team organization, but one thing at a time

Thanks,
Brian [ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 47

- 12/17/2001 12:32:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

The OOB for Germany is a very special case - there is *no* room to add any units. As you will soon see, this causes some rather unique problems to arise which are difficult to solve in a manner consistent with solutions possible for other OOBs. First the v6.1 data: Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Germany 1082 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1085 - Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1092 - PzG Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1099 - SS Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1101 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1102 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1109 - SS Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1116 - FJ Company - requires 2x 1148 Mortar Sec
1120 - VG Company - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1126 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1128 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1136 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x3
1148 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1149 - Mortar Plt - requires 3x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1150 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 135 120mm Mort Sqd x2
1151 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 135 120mm Mort Sqd x2
1153 - Mech Mortar Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1180 - VG Bicycle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Germany Unit# 133
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 7072 (text 7072)
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 158 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 134
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 7090 (text 7090)
Cost: 43 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 135
Name: 120mm Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 91 Icon: 68 lbm: 236 (text 236)
Cost: 67 Avail: Feb '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 073 Ammmo: HE 40 And now the v7.0 data:
Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Germany 1082 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1085 - Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1087 - PzG Mot Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1088 - PzG Mot Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1092 - PzG Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1099 - SS Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1101 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1102 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1104 - SS Mot Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1105 - SS Mot Plt - requires 1x 81mm Mort Sqd
1109 - SS Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1116 - FJ Company - requires 2x 1148 Mortar Sec
1120 - VG Company - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1126 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1128 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1136 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1148 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1149 - Mortar Plt - requires 3x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1150 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 135 120mm Mort Sqd
1151 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 135 120mm Mort Sqd
1153 - Mech Mortar Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1180 - VG Bicycle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Germany Unit# 133
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 7072 (text 7072)
Cost: 32 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 158 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 134
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 7090 (text 7090)
Cost: 82 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40 Unit# 135
Name: 120mm Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 91 Icon: 68 lbm: 236 (text 236)
Cost: 102 Avail: Feb '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 073 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 073 Ammo: HE 30 Potential Problems:
#1: Eliminating the unit multiplier for formation 1136 by tripling the base unit's (133) number of tubes has the unfortunate side effect of tripling the number of tubes at the platoon level for formations 1082, 1087, 1092, 1099, 1104, and 1109. Solution: given the v6.1 formation data and the inability to add units to the OOB, there is only one realistic solution available to us: return unit 133 to the single tube v6.1 unit configuration and rework formation 1136. The question then becomes - how to rework formation 1136? Bearing in mind C&C effects, I think the best solution is to create a new platoon level formation having a single unit 133. Then modify formation 1136 to be a company level formation with 3 platoons - each being the newly created single light mortar tube platoon. This assumes that the light mortars in the new formation will call their own missions - not the most realistic outcome, but given the limitations and constraints - it is, in my opinion, the best available option. #2: Platoons 1088 and 1105 now have an 81mm mortar unit 134 attached. However formations 1148, 1149, and 1153 still require a two tube version of the same mortar. Unit 134 has been modified into a two tube version but that has the effect of putting two tubes with each 1088 and 1105 type platoon. I don't think this was the intention. Solution: there's no easy one here. The proposed formation change approach suggested for problem #1 with the light mortar will *not* work with the 81mm mortar due to it being used in section and platoon formations with company level units already. Modifying formation 1148 to have two units of a single tube each would double the C&C cost of medium mortars for this OOB. In my opinion that is not a viable solution. My earnest suggestion here is to move the 81mm mortars back up to the company level as per the v6.1 OOB and stick with the v7.0 double tube unit 134 version. Summary: this OOB presents us with a couple of crucial dilemmas. Play balance wise it prevents us from going wild with multiple new unit solutions in any 'across the board' approach. It also serves to remind us that we are operating within the constraints of a set of engine limitations which cannot realistically be overcome without an entirely new engine. Next up, the Soviet OOB, there are some issues there with large numbers of tubes per formation that I want to examine for C&C effects. As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcome. Thanks,
Brian (PS: as a professional programmer who has had to maintain code written under earlier programming paradigms such as SP:WaW appears to have used, I'm fully aware that no economically feasible major improvements to the v7.0 engine are likely - *ever* - we have to do the best with what we have here - at least until Combat Leader. In a similar vein, adding new units to the German OOB has so many ramifications due to the need to relocate other units that it would almost certainly adversely impact the Mega Campaigns and many scenarios - it is, like patching the engine itself - not a realistic option imo.)

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 48

- 12/17/2001 3:29:00 PM

Mikimoto

Posts: 511
Joined: 11/6/2000
From: Barcelona, Catalunya
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Price:
The OOB for Germany is a very special case - there is *no* room to add any units. As you will soon see, this causes some rather unique problems to arise which are difficult to solve in a manner consistent with solutions possible for other OOBs. ... (PS: as a professional programmer who has had to maintain code written under earlier programming paradigms such as SP:WaW appears to have used, I'm fully aware that no economically feasible major improvements to the v7.0 engine are likely - *ever* - we have to do the best with what we have here - at least until Combat Leader. In a similar vein, adding new units to the German OOB has so many ramifications due to the need to relocate other units that it would almost certainly adversely impact the Mega Campaigns and many scenarios - it is, like patching the engine itself - not a realistic option imo.)

Neverending story with German OOb file. You can't free slots to put some "normal" stuff because we need the slots to put there some "special" stuff.
It is a Dogma to maintain the amphibious tanks, duplicate Tigers, etc.. and not improve, as this is the case, for example, the use of Light Mortars (Ten of thousands were built and used)...

_____________________________

Desperta ferro!
Miquel Guasch Aparicio

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 49

- 12/17/2001 3:31:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Brian ?? where are you getting your TO&E info ??
There is an " Offical TO&E" in the Steel Panthers Folder Done by Scott Grasse .. I only mention this because it looks like you are trying to make this a little harder than it needs to be.. it looks like you are trying to Attach the Bn's Heavy Weapon Company Assets to the Platoons in some cases with those 81mm mortars .. which is fine by me .. but i just wanted to make sure thats what you wanted to do .. there is a case or two where a Company had some 81mm mortars of their own .. Panzer Greniders had 81mm's but no 50mm for example only two to the whole company and not assigned to the manuver platoon ..
I think if you look at the TO&E for the Germans the rule of thumb is going to be
3 50mm mortars at company level ( 1 per platoon ) and 6 81mm at Bn Level Hvy Weapons company for Bn up to end 1943 for a total in the whole Bn of 9 50mm and 6 81mm.s OR
After 43 2 81mm per company total and some 120mm at BN in the heavy weapon CO usually 4 plus some flak guns for a total of 6 81's and 4 120's for the Whole Bn.
if you have other sources fine .. but it looks like you might be trying to correct the mulitples without soild info so I just wanted you to know if you didn't ..there are TO&E's in the Steel Panther WAW Folder .. you need adobe acrobat to open them ..hope this helps

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 50

- 12/17/2001 4:12:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Brian ?? where are you getting your TO&E info ??

The info is coming straight out of the official OOBs - that's not saying I believe they are correct in some cases, in fact I'm pretty sure they aren't. I have absolutely no idea what TOE sources where used for the v7.0 - or for that matter some portions of v6.1 OOBs. That's a topic I'm trying to steer clear of for now until the mortars are straightened out except where necessary to find a solution. When in doubt I'm falling back to the v6.1 mortar requirements and formation composition. It seems that there was a desire to push some of the mortars down to platoon level, which is ok by me, but it seems that effort combined with the effort to remove the unit multiplier dependencies had some incorrect and undesireable side effects. I'd like to remove those side effects from the OOBs prior to applying the mortar modifications to correct ROF and accuracy issues. I think the mortars in the 81mm case for Germany that were moved to the platoon level need to be pushed back up to the company level due to the lack of any space in the unit section of the OOB to add the neccessary extra unit to make it work correctly without throwing C&C point costs out of whack. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 51

- 12/17/2001 4:13:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Ok Brian I just went back and looked at some of the other Nations you have posted ..
As a general rule a Infantry Company will have a total of 3 infantry mortars ... thats either 1 per platoon OR a seperate Hvy Platoon that has 3 infantry mortars ... NOT both .. total of only three in the whole company..
It looks like you are trying to do a little of both in many cases a couple 50mm/2in in each platoon AND a Heavy Platoon with more mortars for totals of 8 or 9 mortars to a company..
Things got a little crazy with this triple infantry mortar at platoon level and folks might be getting the idea that a company had 9 or 12 mortars or something ..it ain't so .. honest
Just three 50mm/2in/46GL/Knee mortars total for the whole company, either assigned 1 per platoon OR a heavy Platoon with all three in one unit ... this holds true across almost all nations.. some companies will have 2 81mm instead of the 3 50mm , in this case the 81's are best modeled by having them in the heavy weapons platoon only and the Infantry Platoons have NO mortar.
The Heavy weapons Company for the Battalion will have at most 6 81mm or 4 120/4.2 heavy mortars usually in Sections of 2 mortars each .. these could concevably be farmed out to The 3 Companys but they should not be inculded in the Companies themselves .. this too holds true as a general rule for almost all nationalities ..
The way things are currently, most Companys in the game are going to end up with more Mortars than a Battalion and are going to be very very expensive .

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 52

- 12/17/2001 4:27:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Mikimoto:

Neverending story with German OOb file. You can't free slots to put some "normal" stuff because we need the slots to put there some "special" stuff.
It is a Dogma to maintain the amphibious tanks, duplicate Tigers, etc.. and not improve, as this is the case, for example, the use of Light Mortars (Ten of thousands were built and used)...

I agree, but the task required to go back and move the special stuff to other OOBs while maintaining compatiblity with the Mega Campaigns and as many scenarios as possible is a daunting one at best, impossible at worse. If I knew which ones were required for all the MCs I'd consider moving some but that would still almost certainly break a few scenarios. The case is actually worse than stated - Germany used quite a number of different mortars from what I understand, and there's only room in the OOB for a single unit for each mortar classification. The 'ideal' OOB restricted fix for the malfunctioning unit multiplier problem would be to use at least two (and in some cases three) units for each type of mortar, one single tube, the other with multiple tubes. Multiply that by the number of mortar types and the number of units required to represent a sample of available mortars gets large quickly. When it comes to Germany's OOB, if I had access to the SP:WaW source code I'd tackle the unit multiplier problem directly rather than attempt to sort out which units have to remain in the German OOB and which can be safely moved elsewhere. I'm probably lucky I don't because neither task is remotely simple. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 53

- 12/17/2001 4:28:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Brian look at the Offical TO&E's in the Steel Panther WAW folder ... these are not the OOB's, they are a different folder altogether, and they haven't changed since Version 1.0. Only the major Powers are inculded and Only the Germans TO&E's are extensive the rest are pretty sketchy ..
I think you might have been misreading the 6.1 OOB's. In 6.1 there were no triple mortars at Infantry Platoon level, and there were no 81mm at infantry platoon level , for any nation I am aware of. I spent about 500 hours in the 6.1 OOB's.. Honest

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 54

- 12/17/2001 4:38:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Brian it is really very simple have a single 50mm/46mm/kneemortar/60mm mortar unit appropiate to each nation, and assign it as a platoon weapon .. period
Have the 80/81/82 as a single tube and a double tube total two unit per nation in the appropiate caliber . and you can skip the single tube for most nations so it is again only one unit per nation .
For everybody but the Russians have a single double tube Heavy Mortar 120/4,2/160mm, and for the Russians a triple tube unit in the appropiate caliber for each nation ..again One unit
total number of non-sp mortar units for any given nation 3 maybe 4

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 55

- 12/17/2001 4:41:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Ok Brian I just went back and looked at some of the other Nations you have posted ..
As a general rule a Infantry Company will have a total of 3 infantry mortars ... thats either 1 per platoon OR a seperate Hvy Platoon that has 3 infantry mortars ... NOT both .. total of only three in the whole company..
It looks like you are trying to do a little of both in many cases a couple 50mm/2in in each platoon AND a Heavy Platoon with more mortars for totals of 8 or 9 mortars to a company..

I believe what you're seeing is that some platoons don't go with some companies (at least they aren't supposed to) - but in any case we're in agreement on the total number of mortars per company or battalion. For the the next version of 'Mortar Mod', when I find a conflict or potential situation which would result in having too many mortars by default - I'll be reverting to the v6.1 OOB formations instead. I don't think medium mortars as a rule should be part of infantry company formations - there's really no need for it in general. What may be confusing is - for each OOB the potential problems I'm noting with the 7.0 version are only the ones resulting from the changes from version 6.1 - problems inherited from v6.1 aren't being addressed at the moment. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 56

- 12/17/2001 4:49:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Brian it is really very simple have a single 50mm/46mm/kneemortar/60mm mortar unit appropiate to each nation, and assign it as a platoon weapon .. period
Have the 80/81/82 as a single tube and a double tube total two unit per nation in the appropiate caliber . and you can skip the single tube for most nations so it is again only one unit per nation .
For everybody but the Russians have a single double tube Heavy Mortar 120/4,2/160mm, and for the Russians a triple tube unit in the appropiate caliber for each nation ..again One unit
total number of non-sp mortar units for any given nation 3 maybe 4

That makes the most sense out of any case I've considered. I'll definately be doing that in the next version of Mortar Mod. Part of the reason for doing the analysis the way I did was to locate and make clear exactly what problems existed as well as what limitations existed in applying any fix. Once I went through a few and then looked at what I think are the 'limiting cases' (German and Soviet OOBs) the picture is much more clear. Btw, could you possibly send me a copy of the 'spreadsheet from hell' or tell me where I could get a copy? It'll hopefully help me in figuring out just what is going on in the Nationalist China OOB. (Still having a bit of a headache with that one.) Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 57

- 12/17/2001 5:02:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Brian what problems do you think were inherited from 6.1 with the mortars ?
As far as i know with the infantry Companies mortars everything could have been fixed but putting the infantry mortars singlely in the Platoons , and that only occured in two or three places out of all the OOB's ..
And then you had some multiple Mortars in independant Mortar only units on the Artillery page that had an incorrect rate of fire ..
Frankly , so far the cure is appearing worse than the disease..
The Advantages of making everything single tube that can be reaped in terms of breakdown , rate of fire , transportability quite frankly i think offsets any C&C concideration .. add in you could model a greater variety of mortars per nation for example .. historically the German standard 81mm only had a 2 km range , but starting about dec 43 they get the new mortar with a 4.5 km range that is not even in the game . it out ranges all the allied medium mortars and it about matches the US 4.2inch in range , but this mulitple tube variation on the same mortar eats up the spaces .. Germans had an 81mm airborne mortar .. short range but more powerful than the Allies 2in/60mm mortars that their Airborne carried .. not even in the game ..
I think this solution should be looked at ... Nothing else in the game has multiples .. the game engine has limits .. something is going to be off somewhere no matter what we do .. for C&C players it will be a little harder to call fire unless they get FO's, for non C&C players they will have a little more control and flexibility in a God's eye world of hexes ..
Just wanted to put forth the alternative ...

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 58

- 12/17/2001 5:05:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Brian the spread sheet from hell is Pauls baby you got to ask him it is 25 meg 4 million data elements .. and thats just the data points for the combined OOB's .. it doesn't tell you what is right or wrong .. I think all I have left on my machine is an extract for the small arms MG's auto cannons I was working on way back when .. ver 5 something.. Ask PaulV

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 59

- 12/17/2001 5:49:00 PM

brianleeprice

Posts: 176
Joined: 10/5/2001
Status: offline

There are only 3 mortar units in the German OOB. No room to add any units for any reason. The only question is, what form is the best to use? For Germany, the answer is almost certainly: a single tube light mortar unit, a dual tube medium mortar representation, and a dual tube heavy mortar representation. In version 6.1 there was no way to purchase a single tube medium or heavy mortar - any attempt to add one is going to require major changes. Thanks,
Brian

_____________________________

(in reply to brianleeprice)

Post #: 60