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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Timeline Page: [1]
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Timeline - 6/23/2004 12:32:43 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I'm not an expert on the period but can someone tell me why 1805 is the start date? Seems that alot of excellent gaming has been ignored prior to 1805.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
Post #: 1
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 2:39:46 PM   
wieschi

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: Karlsruhe / Germany
Status: offline 		napoloeon became emperor in dec 1804.
this is probably the reason.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 2
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 3:47:17 PM   
DerekP

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 3/1/2004
Status: offline 		Also because 1805 marks the start of the Napoleonic Wars proper after the Peace of Amiens from 1802-1804. Most people call the period from 1789-1802 the Revolutionary Wars (at least in Europe where confusion with the American War of Independence is not a big issue).

(in reply to wieschi)
Post #: 3
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 4:29:15 PM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm not an expert on the period but can someone tell me why 1805 is the start date? Seems that alot of excellent gaming has been ignored prior to 1805.



Attempts to answer that notwithstanding, you have an EXCELLENT point.

The real reason is the boardgame.

The creators of the boardgame for some reason didn't have the foresight that you do. Hence, such a limited game.

Prepare yourself free thinker. If you persist, the followers of the boardgame are so entrenched that they will try to roast you for any suggestion that deviates from the original --no matter how good it might be. Some actually want it to stay the same with no changes at all.

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 4
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 4:44:27 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		I don't know...it seems most of the "keep it exactly like the boardgame" crowd have gone into lurker mode.....those of us who remain are simply interested in the product as it is now envisioned...I wonder now if there will be custom editing features incorporated in the game, which might allow you to tinker with the timeline and force pool...has this topic been broached before?

(in reply to Le Tondu)
Post #: 5
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 5:51:26 PM   
Jabod

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Also because 1805 marks the start of the Napoleonic Wars proper after the Peace of Amiens from 1802-1804. Most people call the period from 1789-1802 the Revolutionary Wars (at least in Europe where confusion with the American War of Independence is not a big issue).


The Peace of Amiens ended in March 1803. The reason boardgames of the Napoleonic Wars began in 1805 was because the first two years of the war consisted of the British and French glowering impotently at each other across the English Channel, which was not considered much fun. Russia and Austria joined the war in 1805.

The wars of 1792-1802 are called the French Revolutionary Wars.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 6
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 7:01:20 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm not an expert on the period but can someone tell me why 1805 is the start date? Seems that alot of excellent gaming has been ignored prior to 1805.



Attempts to answer that notwithstanding, you have an EXCELLENT point.

The real reason is the boardgame.

The creators of the boardgame for some reason didn't have the foresight that you do. Hence, such a limited game.

Prepare yourself free thinker. If you persist, the followers of the boardgame are so entrenched that they will try to roast you for any suggestion that deviates from the original --no matter how good it might be. Some actually want it to stay the same with no changes at all.


LOL. I will say this for you Tondu, at least you are persistent in your ignorance. Please re-read DerekP's post as it gives an excellent historical description of WHY.

(in reply to Le Tondu)
Post #: 7
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 7:41:11 PM   
Equinox


Posts: 5
Joined: 11/4/2003
From: Natchez, MS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm not an expert on the period but can someone tell me why 1805 is the start date? Seems that alot of excellent gaming has been ignored prior to 1805.



Attempts to answer that notwithstanding, you have an EXCELLENT point.

The real reason is the boardgame.

The creators of the boardgame for some reason didn't have the foresight that you do. Hence, such a limited game.

Prepare yourself free thinker. If you persist, the followers of the boardgame are so entrenched that they will try to roast you for any suggestion that deviates from the original --no matter how good it might be. Some actually want it to stay the same with no changes at all.


I'm fairly new to these forums, I've lurked a bit and caught up on many of the discussions and I'm now ready to take the plunge and post.

I'm really looking forward to playing EiA with my old college gaming group that's now spread all over the country. For this reason, although I'd love an entirely new grand strategy game set in the Napoleonic Era, what I desire from this effort is a faithful reproduction of the boardgame.

I'd just like to point out that in "The General" 25-4 there was an official addition to EiA called "Viva La Revolution", which covered the years 1789-1804. The boardgame has no trouble covering those years. Incorporation of the revolutionary years would be neither hersay nor extremly difficult. The rules have already been written and tested. I hope we will see this as an added feature after the games release.




---

< Message edited by Equinox -- 6/23/2004 11:45:03 AM >

(in reply to Le Tondu)
Post #: 8
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 7:48:47 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		LOL

You don't need a HISTORICAL reason to limit the game's timeline.

The simple fact is that, at least for the boardgame version, the game is ALREADY TOO DAMN LONG :)

It's not exactly easy to get several grown-up people together once or twice a month for a whole year or more on a regular basis, especially when you get to sit around and stare at the board for hours at a time doing absolutely nothing because you move last and the French guy still hasn't finished moving his damn armies because his empire stretches from Madrid to the Levant.

(in reply to Equinox)
Post #: 9
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 8:52:52 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

LOL

You don't need a HISTORICAL reason to limit the game's timeline.

The simple fact is that, at least for the boardgame version, the game is ALREADY TOO DAMN LONG :)

It's not exactly easy to get several grown-up people together once or twice a month for a whole year or more on a regular basis, especially when you get to sit around and stare at the board for hours at a time doing absolutely nothing because you move last and the French guy still hasn't finished moving his damn armies because his empire stretches from Madrid to the Levant.



This is true. The game is extremely long, and most of the EiA games I have started with people have not finished, ever. Tondu has never played the boardgame so he really has no idea, he also has probably never heard of "The General" magazine, which has many good articles and additions on many good games. I also believe there were expansive Naval Warfare options in one copy of "The General". I have played the Grand Campaign several times and have also played a few of the Rev. Wars option. They are very different setups.

Le Tondu, all I am saying is play the game before you begin to bash the designers, who have made two of the best wargames EVER.

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 10
RE: Timeline - 6/23/2004 9:38:56 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I agree with all of you (is that possible?).

The game has a natural 1805-1815 period, but the game rules are so flexible that it can cover much more. But all the interresting fighting took place during this time.

The general added a few interresting rules, the revolutionary scenario being the most important one. The game's biggest flaw is that it cannot possibly be finished by none-fanatics. Finding seven fanatics for Napoleon-war available for 500 gaming hours at the same time is a masterpiece of diplomacy in itself. Usualy someone gets bored after loosing a couple of wars. It is rather boring sitting in Prussia with just two-three provinces left AND your last powerful corp is off fighting a battle in Turkey for THE AUSTRIANS. Getting killed for sure, just to spend a few of those cheap feudal corps...

But oh yes the game is intoxicating when you are on the winning rush and you get more and more land...

_____________________________

John Umber

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 11
RE: Timeline - 6/24/2004 3:17:21 AM   
yammahoper

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline 		One thing EiA is not is a set peice historical reinactment of the period. I have never seen a game play out any where near actual historical lines. Everyone is far to busy gathering as many minors under their belt as possible to fuel their economies or add corp/naval strength to their nation. I have seen Autrain/Turkish alliance resulting in Turkey taking minors in Europe and owning Poland. I have watched (as the British) a French/Russian union smash the other powers, leaving Spain and Britian fighting a titanic struggle in central Spain, with relief coming only when a shocked France heard Russia declare dominace. A historical setting? Sure. But never beyond the preset scenarios have I have seen EiA resemble real history.

As for the length of the game...good lord yes, it is amazingly long. Our first campaign, as KIDS with lots of time to burn (and every session was 16 hours long or more, ending at Dennys for the blow by blow replay) took us almost three months to finish.

The game looks great. I eagerly await it.

Lynn

(in reply to John Umber)
Post #: 12
RE: Timeline - 6/24/2004 9:07:17 AM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I second that!

_____________________________

John Umber

(in reply to yammahoper)
Post #: 13
RE: Timeline - 6/24/2004 9:30:34 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline
quote:

I also believe there were expansive Naval Warfare options in one copy of "The General". I have played the Grand Campaign several times and have also played a few of the Rev. Wars option. They are very different setups.


Yeah the Revolutionary Wars scenario was very good, although I was frustrated that I had to literally twist arms and deploy the purple nurple in order to get people to play since it wasn't "what we are used to and look at France she is teh gimp". Monolithic fools! lol

As for the Naval Rules from The General, they were very poorly implemented. The net effect of all that unneeded complexity was that GB won more fights than ever and would wind up with all the hulks to boot, allowing GB to repair and bounce back rapidly, no matter what the naval losses were originally, while the other countries pretty much had to give up rebuilding their fleets.

(in reply to John Umber)
Post #: 14
RE: Timeline - 6/25/2004 4:40:09 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

Yeah the Revolutionary Wars scenario was very good, although I was frustrated that I had to literally twist arms and deploy the purple nurple in order to get people to play since it wasn't "what we are used to and look at France she is teh gimp". Monolithic fools! lol

As for the Naval Rules from The General, they were very poorly implemented. The net effect of all that unneeded complexity was that GB won more fights than ever and would wind up with all the hulks to boot, allowing GB to repair and bounce back rapidly, no matter what the naval losses were originally, while the other countries pretty much had to give up rebuilding their fleets.


Yeah, but the French Militia Mass Build option was cool :)

And those Naval Rules were still better than the Original Ones.

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 15
RE: Timeline - 6/25/2004 11:13:36 PM   
Roads

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: massachusetts
Status: offline 		warning: I've not actually played 1792.
As I see it the problem with a 1792 start is not that all the interesting fighting was after 1805, but rather that the dynamic of EiA was always that France, in the catbird seat HAS to do something all the time to keep getting PPs. 1792 is nothing like that because France is weakish, and it looks to me like no-one has that driving incentive to keep trying to push things forward.
Plus much as they tried getting the game to produce a levee en masse is sort of unrealistic.

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 16
RE: Timeline - 6/25/2004 11:30:43 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		My problem with EiA is that it is too damn short! Assuming a country wishes to pump out larger navies, this seems to take up quite a lot of time. Very disapointing when by the time you got a few more ships to make a difference the game is over. I don't think there is a problem in getting people involved to finish a game to completion. This is why wargame clubs are there. You can always find other fanatics to schedule online/offline games. It is great to play a few hours every week, and continue the next. It gets finished.

On the other hand, there is Tic-Tac-Toe for a faster game :P

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves…

(in reply to Roads)
Post #: 17
RE: Timeline - 6/26/2004 5:26:25 AM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Whats the game play style going to be PBEM or something other?

_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

- Shakespeare

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 18
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