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command control and orders - 6/25/2004 7:17:10 PM   
Intoxicated Man

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Hi there,
Can anyone explain how this works, or point me out somewhere where is explained? I'm reading the manual but nothing makes sense.
thanks
Post #: 1
RE: command control and orders - 6/25/2004 7:58:23 PM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
Status: offline 		Hi,

I'm sure that someone else will do this better than I - there may even be a guide around somewhere. But here it goes....

There is some stuff in the manual about C&C. It took me a couple of readings - it's a little scattered.

Basically, your units need "orders" to: (1) set a movement objective (2) to move somewhere other than in the direction of the objective (3) to change stance defend/advance (4) to call in arty. The lead squad from each platoon will gain orders each turn if they are not suppressed. Those orders can be used by any of the squads in that platoon if they are in contact with their platoon leader and not too supressed themselves.

Orders gained by the A0 unit will be shared with the units below it. (If you have a company commander, they may also be gaining and sharing orders.) That means if your squad uses up it's platoon leader's orders, it may be able to access orders from the A0 unit. Two special units - the CP and HQ - also gain orders and share them with units in their vicinity (five hexes?).

The number of orders a unit gains or can carry over from turn to turn is determined by it's rank - I think there is also a little table of this in the manual. Most regular units can only carry over 3 orders per turn, though your A0 unit may carry over as many as five. You plattoon leaders loose all their accumulated orders if they are forced to route or retreat. You can see how many orders a unit has available, and who they are coming from, when you select it and look at the info panel at the bottom of the screen.

The number of orders it takes to do something can vary depending on whether the unit is in "direct" contact with it's platoon leader (usually means within 3 hexes, though some elite commanding units seem to have influences that extend further than that.) There is a little chart in the manual that breaks down orders costs. Some quick ones: 3 orders to set a movement objective, 1 order to move outside of objective if the unit is in direct contact - 3 orders if it is in radio contact, one order to change stance (advance/defend) of a single unit if in contact - 2 or 3? if in radio contact, 3 orders to chance the stance for the entire platoon.

To change the stance of a unit, open the unit's info panel (select it and space-bar) and look towards the bottom on the left side - near where range, etc. is. You can click on stance to cycle it between advance/defend. When you do this with the platoon leader, there is another switch that will apply the stance change to only the current unit or to the whole platoon - default is only the current unit.

Some things that C&C will teach you: (1) notice which of your units doesn't have a radio - they will be stranded if they stray too far from their commander. (2) Choose your objectives carefully - if you run out of orders you can't move. (3) Defensive stance can make a big difference now - less likely to retreat when fired upon, more likely to take op fire, more likely to find cover. (4) Protect your command units - they aren't just undergunned squads anymore. Keep them close to their squads so that they can rally them better and won't have to spend as many orders to make a quick course correction. (5) Be careful with your FO - they can't call unlimited arty anymore or they run out of orders. Keep them near your A0 so they will always be in contact and have it's orders to use.

I hope you like it. I used to complain about C&C, but once I got the hang of it I found it really enhanced game play. I think it's a must for the megacamps.

I'm sure there are some mistakes or omissions in what I've written - hope other readers can offer some comments.

Best,

(in reply to Intoxicated Man)
Post #: 2
RE: command control and orders - 6/25/2004 8:36:17 PM   
Jamminji

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 4/4/2003
Status: offline 		I agree. C&C-on makes for a much more realistic battle!

I find it funny to read about all the people screaming about realism but play with C&C off...lol

I play with C&C on whenever possible. The problem is many scenarios are designed for C&C-off and many PBEM'ers play with it off.

jam

(in reply to Procrustes)
Post #: 3
RE: command control and orders - 6/25/2004 9:18:51 PM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
Status: offline 		The megacamps generally work well with C&C on. I have found a cheat I can use when it doen't, though. Sometimes (often) in the MC's your reinforcements will arrive with no orders and in defensive stance. That means that you need to change their stance, using all your orders, then wait three turns to give them a movement objective. (I think this gitch happens most commonly when you are defending.) What you can do is to turn C&C off in the preferences at the beginning of the turn, change the stance to "advance", then immediately turn C&C on - now you have a unit in advance stance with all it's orders but without an objective. You can set the objective and start gaining orders again.

I'm at the point where I don't play much besides the MC's anymore. I'm not reliable enough to be a good PBEM partner (not sure if I like PBEM anyways), and it's too frustrating to try to find scenarios that work properly with C&C or with the current version of the game. C&C made the old way of playing unappealing for me now. (Disclaimer - I tend to like smaller scenarios with a good deal of infantry - I think that is what SPWAW is best at.)

(in reply to Jamminji)
Post #: 4
RE: command control and orders - 6/25/2004 9:40:56 PM   
Intoxicated Man

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		thanks Procrustes, after a couple of games starts making sense, practice makes perfect I guess.
I agree: C&C on rules!
Next step is Online play, anyone interested?
cheers

(in reply to Procrustes)
Post #: 5
RE: command control and orders - 6/25/2004 10:16:55 PM   
Jackk

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamminji

I agree. C&C-on makes for a much more realistic battle!

I find it funny to read about all the people screaming about realism but play with C&C off...lol




Problem is, C&C forces unrealism too.
When a paratroop drops out of a plane and takes fire after hitting the ground, wouldn't it be realistic to expect them to dive into the bushes next to them rather than sit and wait until their command unit is in contact?

Too many times I've seen units get mowed down out in the open because they didn't have enough "orders" to crawl to cover.

Maybe the Soviets would have stayed there from fear of the commisars :), but most other troops knew when saving their butts was more important than waiting for the commander to be in contact.

This isn't a flame on C&C, it can be fun and challenging at times. But realistic? Eh, just sort of. It forces you to use your platoons as one unit, but losing the use of a squad because it fell one hex behind....nah.

_____________________________

Jackk "Smile today cuz tomorrow may really suck"

(in reply to Jamminji)
Post #: 6
RE: command control and orders - 6/25/2004 10:51:48 PM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		Just because a unit is out of contact with it's parent commander doesn't keep it from being able to move in the direction of it's objective. Orders are not necessary to actually move a unit (except to move away from it's given objective), only to give it an objective and change it's stance.

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Post #: 7
RE: command control and orders - 6/25/2004 11:31:25 PM   
Jamminji

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 4/4/2003
Status: offline 		Very true Flash...

and also Jackk, a squad without orders will still try to find cover in the 50 yd hex. And I believe it will/"may" retreat if fired on. They don't need orders to stay alive.... just to do something outside thier orders. Your right Jackk, it is NOT perfect... but it is more realistic then playing without it. It is nice to have the option!


jam

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)
Post #: 8
RE: command control and orders - 6/26/2004 1:03:14 AM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
Status: offline 		I understand - I used to complain about that part of orders - I was always too klutzy with it and I would end up stuck someplace I didn't want to be. (Really used to bug me that I couldn't pop out, shoot, then back up without spending orders.) But with a little patience & practice, all that went away. Try to move a little slower, and choose your objectives carefully. Plan a little ahead, but you don't need to set your objectives too far ahead - just far enough that you can make it in no less than three turns (then you will have enough orders to give the next objective.) And keeping your platoon leader nearby makes a big difference - you use a lot less orders tweaking your squads dispositions. I was really suprised at how much C&C improved the game for me.

(Your squads will still go to ground, route, retreat, pop smoke, etc. if they get caught in the open. When they are rallied, they will have the same objective they did before they stopped advancing. Yes, you need to keep an eye on who has a radio - otherwise they can't stray too far from their platoon leader.)

(in reply to Jamminji)
Post #: 9
RE: command control and orders - 6/26/2004 1:48:03 AM   
Jackk

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline 		You all make good points.

I've had decent results getting platoons where they should be going, and I know that the out-of-contact unit can still move, but that's 1 hex per turn right?

Also, if I crest a hill and realize I really don't want to be there (battalion of tanks, surprise!), then doesn't that cost orders to pull back behind the ridge? If I have my objective on or in front of the hill, I'd be going backwards. If I have it just behind the hill, I'd have to pass it to peek over the ridge.

Jamminji, I know the units will look for cover in that hex, I just meant moving to another hex for cover or to get out of LOS will cost an order or be impossible if he's out of contact. That just doesn't ring right with me.
And yes, it is nice to have the option.

Procrustes, that's a good suggestion to set short objectives. I'll remember that if I play with it again.

Thank you for your responses.

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Jackk "Smile today cuz tomorrow may really suck"

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)
Post #: 10
RE: command control and orders - 6/27/2004 7:40:20 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		Yes, Jackk, moving any unit away from it's objective will cause the expenditure of orders...however, sometimes there are allowed hexes that are on the flanks of a unit, which may not be in the direction of the objective. Keep an eye on the movement radius; it will show you where you can move and where you can't.

And out-of-contact units have their full movement available, not just one hex worth. That said, there will be times when other factors limit the movement points a unit has - this is true of units in contact as well.

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Post #: 11
RE: command control and orders - 6/27/2004 8:44:26 AM   
Toivo


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/8/2004
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		C2 isn't difficult system however it takes some time to get used with it - I'd suggest play couple games with some "mentor" who is helpful enough to explain C2 and answer to questions. Also playing against AI isn't bad idea to run first few tests.

Main impact C2 had on my planning first - I now had to plan setting objectives very carefuly and select more experienced troops for spearhead.

I ain't pro with C2 yet though.

Regards

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)
Post #: 12
RE: command control and orders - 6/27/2004 7:11:54 PM   
Jackk

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

And out-of-contact units have their full movement available, not just one hex worth....



Hm, okay. Then something has changed. I distinctly remember units being out of contact and only moving one hex until the x0 came back and "got them".

I'll be playing around with again to see if its as bad as I remember.

Do you all use it in the megas too where you may have your squads spread out all over the place?

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Jackk "Smile today cuz tomorrow may really suck"

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Post #: 13
RE: command control and orders - 6/29/2004 8:05:32 PM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jackk
Do you all use it in the megas too where you may have your squads spread out all over the place?


Yup. Try to find anything by Wild Bill - his scenarios are generally designed w/ C&C in mind. Both the Guadacanal and US Airborne megacamps are tailor made for C&C. With the megacamps, I generally haven't found my units to be very scattered and out of contact at turn 0. Though there are exceptions - especially when defending - I've generally taken that as part of the challenge.

I sometimes use a trick to help me keep track of who has a radio. I edit the names of my squads that don't have radios so that there is a minus '-' sign at the end. For example, MMG becomes MMG- and USMC Bar Squad becomes USMC BAR Sqd-. It helps keep me from accidentally moving someone out of contact.

(in reply to Jackk)
Post #: 14
RE: command control and orders - 6/29/2004 10:07:06 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Procrustes



Both the Guadacanal and US Airborne megacamps are tailor made for C&C.


Interesting. I've tested both and this is the first time I've heard about it...
Maybe you could say that they work with C&C but this definitely wasn't a testing requirement.

Voriax

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(in reply to Procrustes)
Post #: 15
RE: command control and orders - 6/29/2004 10:12:23 PM   
Jackk

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Procrustes
I sometimes use a trick to help me keep track of who has a radio. I edit the names of my squads that don't have radios so that there is a minus '-' sign at the end. For example, MMG becomes MMG- and USMC Bar Squad becomes USMC BAR Sqd-. It helps keep me from accidentally moving someone out of contact.



If a platoon isn't in a particular scenario, then do you have to rename them again when you get them back?

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Jackk "Smile today cuz tomorrow may really suck"

(in reply to Procrustes)
Post #: 16
RE: command control and orders - 6/29/2004 10:36:05 PM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

quote:

ORIGINAL: Procrustes



Both the Guadacanal and US Airborne megacamps are tailor made for C&C.


Interesting. I've tested both and this is the first time I've heard about it...
Maybe you could say that they work with C&C but this definitely wasn't a testing requirement.

Voriax


Pardon me. What I mean to say is that - from my perspective as a player - it is apparent that whomever put these MC's together did so in a manner that facilitates playing w/ C&C. For example, the platoons are in reasonable formation (not mixed and scattered willy-nilly) and reasonable initial objectives are already set for most formations. Besides, I think that C&C works best with smaller and infantry-heavy scenarios - like these found in these two MC's.

Best,

(in reply to Voriax)
Post #: 17
RE: command control and orders - 6/29/2004 10:40:27 PM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jackk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Procrustes
I sometimes use a trick to help me keep track of who has a radio. I edit the names of my squads that don't have radios so that there is a minus '-' sign at the end. For example, MMG becomes MMG- and USMC Bar Squad becomes USMC BAR Sqd-. It helps keep me from accidentally moving someone out of contact.



If a platoon isn't in a particular scenario, then do you have to rename them again when you get them back?


The name changes don't stick from game to game - they will all have their default names again next scenario. (I'm not sure but this may be good - I believe that the availabilty of a radio is random for each squad at the start of the scenario - a squad that has one game 1 may not have it again in game 2.)

(in reply to Jackk)
Post #: 18
RE: command control and orders - 6/30/2004 12:16:17 AM   
bchapman


Posts: 302
Joined: 3/30/2000
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Here is a guide for C&C by Mark Pitzel. It's a couple of years old, but I think the strategy is still the same.
After you download the attachment, change the extension from .jpg to .zip. The zip file contains a Word Document.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by bchapman -- 6/29/2004 4:18:51 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: command control and orders - 6/30/2004 1:41:23 AM   
bchapman


Posts: 302
Joined: 3/30/2000
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Here is another discourse on C&C. I don't have an author for it. If someone knows who wrote it I will give them the credit. Again, change the extesion to .zip after downloading.

Attachment (1)

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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."<br />- Gerald Ford

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Post #: 20
RE: command control and orders - 6/30/2004 6:05:02 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Interesting to know for sure is that C2 does NOT apply to the AIP! This also counts for "Unit command" rules (preferences menu). There were hot debates in the (LV) mega cam team, whether unit stances and C2 influence AIP play in any way, but personally I never found any proof that they do. Usually the mega cams were developed for C2=Off play, although stances and objective flags were set for those people who prefer C2=On. Could be that some scenario designers (me included) forgot to set proper stances and flags for reinforcement units, but as said....C2=On was not considered as standard playing the mega cams anyway.

I´m a pro C2=On player, so I usually make and balance my selfmade scenarios for C2=ON play. It also "helps" the AIP somewhat.

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(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 21
RE: command control and orders - 7/1/2004 9:54:39 AM   
MOTHER

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 10/26/2002
From: Melbourne ,Australia
Status: offline 		c2 makes you a more discipilined player thats for sure.
the trick is to" keep" the orders that you have-thats where most people get frustrated.

remember the rule "when moving units stay within the lighted path that appears when you click and dont move everything to the max speed.Keep the "0" UNIT OF THAT FORMATION within a 5 hex or so VISABILITY and that will solve most peoples frustrations with the c2 concept.

if you want instantaneous flanking ,utilize recon designated units as they are exempt from the c2 restrictions,otherwise be patient,designate an obs with the 0 unit in question and lay waypoints and you will achieve just as quickly and more safely your required maneuver.

rule numero uno -stay witin the lighted path unless absolutely necessary..simple really.

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Dirty deeds done dirt cheap

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Post #: 22
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