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RE: Why was Patton so great?

 
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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/8/2004 6:50:55 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

I wonder if Deep Breakfast had any idea what he started when he posted this!



Probably. Like I said, discussions on Patton bring out strong passions in the interested parties. He and MacArthur are the two most controversial of the Allied commanders in WW2, they would wilfully disregard orders, seek short term 'glory' at the expense of long term strategic objectives, tactlessly criticise both superiors and subordinates - they were certainly not 'team players'. On the other hand, they were natural soldiers, brave almost to the point of foolhardiness, great tacticians and were regarded by their troops with genuine affection (most of the time anyway).

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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/8/2004 9:20:06 PM   
mavraam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

I wonder if Deep Breakfast had any idea what he started when he posted this!



Probably. Like I said, discussions on Patton bring out strong passions in the interested parties. He and MacArthur are the two most controversial of the Allied commanders in WW2, they would wilfully disregard orders, seek short term 'glory' at the expense of long term strategic objectives, tactlessly criticise both superiors and subordinates - they were certainly not 'team players'. On the other hand, they were natural soldiers, brave almost to the point of foolhardiness, great tacticians and were regarded by their troops with genuine affection (most of the time anyway).


Speaking of Patton and MacArthur, this is a great story which I read originally in one of Patton's biographies:


quote:

On the afternoon of September 12, 1918, in the midst of a bloody battle between the American Expeditionary Force and the German Army, two American Army officers, a thirty-two year old lieutenant colonel and a thirty-eight year old brigadier general, greeted each other on a small exposed hill. On either side of them infantry and tanks maneuvered forward to the French town of Essey, a quarter mile to the north. Small arms fire and an occasional artillery burst kept the air alive and dangerous.

The lieutenant colonel sported a Colt .45 pistol with an ivory grip and his engraved initials. A pipe was clenched in his teeth. The brigadier wore a barracks cap and a muffler his mother knitted for him. As they spoke to each other, a German artillery barrage opened up and began marching towards their position. Infantrymen scattered and dove for cover, but the two officers remained standing, coolly talking with each other.

The Lieutenant Colonel, George S. Patton, had been in the Army for nine years, and the Brigadier General, Douglas Mac-Arthur, for fifteen, but the two West Pointers had never met. Their careers had taken them in different directions until this day during the First World War. Both officers became famous for their bravery and daring in the Second World War, yet both set the precedent for courage under fire in the First. That Patton and MacArthur did remain standing while an artillery barrage passed over is historically accepted, but what they said to each other as the shells began to drop remains a point of controversy. Only by examining the various stories that developed out of this chance encounter can some of the myths be eradicated.



http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=129&page_type_id=3

< Message edited by mavraam -- 7/8/2004 7:21:00 PM >


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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/8/2004 11:33:53 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Iron Duke:

My apologies. Nothing should be taken personally We are only having a discussion.


No offence taken. My apologies if I gave the impression it had. It was getting late and I was tired .

quote:

In your post above you have clarified what you have read.

As I mentioned previously, you entered this discussion with your mind already made up about Patton. It is not my job to convince you otherwise.

Before I read anything about Patton, I was fairly lukewarm about him and his accompishments. Having read several books about him, I have since formulated a very favourable impression of him and what he did.


My point is the same. I had no real opinion of Patton before reading about the same career you did. I came to the completely opposite conclusion.

quote:

Patton, like MacArthur, had a lot of enemies in higher command and elsewhere, who took every opportunity to downplay their accomplishments no matter what they did. To some, a glass is half empty; to others it is half full.


McArthur is another one I have issues with, but simply because they made enemies does not mean the criticisms those enemies made were wrong. Being critical does not make you an enemy. It merely makes you a critic. Patton also has many critics amongst professional historians. McArthur maybe even more so.

quote:

If I disliked any leader in history, I could easily make them look like incompetent fools. This can be done by anyone. It's called having an agenda.


I have no agenda, just an opinion. I have no personal stake in whether Patton is remembered as a genius or a fool. An agenda ascribes me motivations I simply do not have. It isn't fair. We both read several books (would you be willing to cite your sources?) yet you enter the conversation having "forumulated an opinion", yet I enter it with "an agenda".

quote:

Patton had many critics. But this does not diminish what he accomplished.


Having critics diminishes nothing, this is true. Except, in this instance, the critics don't think he accomplished much to diminish.

quote:

Bradley, who despised Patton, criticized him at every turn (even though many historians are unkind to Bradley's tactics in Europe). However, Patton was the ONLY Allied commander the Germans feared. I think this speaks volumes.


Bradley despised Patton because he had worked with him. It is easy to say Bradley's opinions were coloured by his animosity, but ask yourself why he felt this way? He served both under and over Patton, he had more experience of him than anyone, and his opinion can not be lightly dismissed.

quote:

You have written a lot in your post above, but there are still many inaccuracies in what has been written. However, I'm not going to bother to correct them.


With the greatest of respect, you let yourself down here. I took the time to correct what I perceived were your innaccuracies. However, it's a cheap shot to simply say I'm wrong but be unwilling to say why. If I am wrong, point out my nonsense for all the forum to see, allow me the chance to defend myself, but to simply say "you're clearly wrong but I can't be bothered to tell you how"... well..... What is the point of this forum if not to discuss. Why are any of us here is not to debate, and part of debate is exposing the errors of the other's argument. Simply saying someone is wrong is not an argument, I pride myself in the accuracy of the facts I use to back my arguments, so if I am wrong, I would truly welcome anyone who would correct and enlighten me, as I'd rather be corrected by (and discover) the truth, than be left in the dark with my errors.

quote:

You don't think much of Patton, that is your right. But your opinion of him still does not diminish what he accomplished.


It does if I am right, because my argument is he didn't accomplish much.

quote:

Cheers!


And to you, Sir.

regards,
IronDuke.

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Post #: 63
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/8/2004 11:38:39 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

I wonder if Deep Breakfast had any idea what he started when he posted this!



Probably. Like I said, discussions on Patton bring out strong passions in the interested parties. He and MacArthur are the two most controversial of the Allied commanders in WW2, they would wilfully disregard orders, seek short term 'glory' at the expense of long term strategic objectives, tactlessly criticise both superiors and subordinates - they were certainly not 'team players'. On the other hand, they were natural soldiers, brave almost to the point of foolhardiness, great tacticians and were regarded by their troops with genuine affection (most of the time anyway).


I agree with everything you said (a nice precis of the two men) except where you said "great tacticians".
I don't think either was particularly good operationally. Had they been good operationally, I think they would have gone down as the greatest Allied Commanders of WWII. Their faults would have been overridden by those qualities you describe so succinctly. As it was, I don't think they do. As to who was, well.....

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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 12:38:26 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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Mavraam, thanks for the link, I've added it to my files so I can read it at my leisure.

quote:

I agree with everything you said (a nice precis of the two men) except where you said "great tacticians".


Well they must have had something. Both lacked the capacity to see the 'bigger picture' and so squandered opportunities to follow up successes, something which diminishes what they were able to achieve. But again this is all part of why they're such controversial figures - for every moment of brilliance, an act of crass stupidity.

The greatest Allied Commander of WW2, maybe we should start a poll. My vote would go to Slim.

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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 1:10:25 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Mavraam, thanks for the link, I've added it to my files so I can read it at my leisure.

quote:

I agree with everything you said (a nice precis of the two men) except where you said "great tacticians".


Well they must have had something. Both lacked the capacity to see the 'bigger picture' and so squandered opportunities to follow up successes, something which diminishes what they were able to achieve. But again this is all part of why they're such controversial figures - for every moment of brilliance, an act of crass stupidity.

The greatest Allied Commander of WW2, maybe we should start a poll. My vote would go to Slim.



Patton had speed and drive, although not necessarily much idea how to drive. McArthur, well, I like him less.

As for the greatest, I think the allies were blessed with a largely uninspiring bunch at Army and Army Group level. At Division and Corp level, they had some good Officers, Urquart, Gavin, Taylor, Ridgeway, Collins, Horrocks, early O'Connor to name just a few. Above that, a series of Generals who on the whole were either disappointing (MontGomery, Bradley and Patton) or really disappointing (Clark).

Slim is a good choice and a contender. I thought Nimitz had a good war. Overall, the man with the hardest mission, who accomplished it with some skill at times, was Eisenhower. Not a Combat expert (although not quite the amateur some would have us believe) he nevertheless did his assigned role with some skill.
I'd be tempted to nominate him. If you want the Allies keenest operational mind, it gets a little harder.

Britain and America had a number of good Admirals, and I'd probably look here. Cunningham, Ramsey, Pound, Nimitz, all very able men.

Slim or Eisenhower get the land vote. I've never really warmed to Zhukov because of his methods, although I appreciate they probably suited the theatre he was in and the pressure he was under.

Regards,
IronDuke

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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 3:54:15 PM   
Von Rom


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IronDuke:

When I mentioned the fact that many critics usually start out having an agenda, I was not referring to you. I was referring to critics in general (usually those individuals who take the time to write and publish books).

As for Bradley despising Patton: Patton's long-time staff had been with Patton for a long time and they remained steadfastly loyal to him. The hundreds of thousands of soldiers who served under Patton, loved him. Even the soldiers Patton slapped said they deserved to be slapped.

Contrary to what was shown in the movie, when Patton was forced to apologize to Third Army (for the slapping incident), all his soldiers cheered loudly, so that Patton could not utter his apology. They (the soldiers of Third Army) felt that the General did not have to apologize to them. This act brought tears to Patton's eyes.

I would take the opinion of 300,000 men (who trained under, and fought for, Patton) over Bradley's opinion, any day of the week. . .

Patton was not alone in being the victim of petty jealousies: Rommel had his critics too, while he fought in North Africa. And those same critics were instrumental in keeping reinforcements from getting to him.

This ends my discussion on this topic.

Have a nice day

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 7/9/2004 2:09:34 PM >


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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 4:06:31 PM   
frank1970


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

IronDuke:

When I mentioned the fact that many critics usually start out having an agenda, I was not referring to you. I was referring to critics in general (usually those individuals who take the time to write and publish books).

As for Bradley despising Patton: Patton's long-time staff had been with Patton for a long time and they remained steadfastly loyal to him. The hundreds of thousands of soldiers who served under Patton, loved him. Even the soldiers Patton slapped said they deserved to be slapped.

Contrary to what was shown in the movie, when Patton was forced to apologize to Third Army (for the slapping incident), all his soldiers cheered loudly, so that Patton could not utter his apology. They (the soldiers of Third Army) felt that the General did not have to apologize to them. This act brought tears to Patton's eyes.

I would take the opinion of 300,000 men (who trained under, and fought for, Patton) over Bradley's opinion, any day of the week. . .

Patton was not alone in being the victim of petty jealousies: Rommel had his critics too, while he fought in North Africa. And those same critics were instrumental in keeping reinforcements from getting to him.

This ends my discussion on this topic.

Have a nice day


I do not want to make you feel bad or so , but people cheering an idiot is not seldom and was not seldom at that time. Otherwise Hitler must have been the greatest general of all.

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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 4:13:03 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

IronDuke:

When I mentioned the fact that many critics usually start out having an agenda, I was not referring to you. I was referring to critics in general (usually those individuals who take the time to write and publish books).

As for Bradley despising Patton: Patton's long-time staff had been with Patton for a long time and they remained steadfastly loyal to him. The hundreds of thousands of soldiers who served under Patton, loved him. Even the soldiers Patton slapped said they deserved to be slapped.

Contrary to what was shown in the movie, when Patton was forced to apologize to Third Army (for the slapping incident), all his soldiers cheered loudly, so that Patton could not utter his apology. They (the soldiers of Third Army) felt that the General did not have to apologize to them. This act brought tears to Patton's eyes.

I would take the opinion of 300,000 men (who trained under, and fought for, Patton) over Bradley's opinion, any day of the week. . .

Patton was not alone in being the victim of petty jealousies: Rommel had his critics too, while he fought in North Africa. And those same critics were instrumental in keeping reinforcements from getting to him.

This ends my discussion on this topic.

Have a nice day


I do not want to make you feel bad or so , but people cheering an idiot is not seldom and was not seldom at that time. Otherwise Hitler must have been the greatest general of all.


You're right, Hitler was an idiot.

I didn't see soldiers cheering for Hitler in 1944. I believe Hitler spent most of his time in a bunker, hiding. In fact, many of Hitler's own generals (Rommel included) wanted to kill him.

And obviously, you are also referring to Patton as an idiot. Hmmm, Patton the Idiot, the man the German High Command feared the most. . . heheh

The soldiers and officers of Third Army, those who actually fought for Patton, continued to love him, even 50 years after the war was over. . .

And Patton was buried at the head of the fallen soldiers of Third Army. . .

Have a nice day.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 7/9/2004 3:26:00 PM >


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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 4:36:06 PM   
Von Rom


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Here is an excellent website that helps to explain Bradley's hatred for Patton:

http://www.pattonuncovered.com/html/bradley.html


Here is an excerpt:

Patton is the only clear voice that remains from WWII without need of deciphering. We are extremely lucky that Patton followed General Pershing’s advice and kept a diary. Without Patton’s diary, we would not have clear proof of his incredible “sixth sense:” his accurate guesses as to the intention of the enemy. It is easy for a commander to say, years after the war, that he “knew all along” the enemy was about to attack. That commander must be able to prove that he knew – and the best proof is a day-to-day account in a war diary.

In “A Soldier’s Story,” Bradley praises Patton with what would seem mollified respect. But in 1983 Bradley wrote another vicious book that fiercely attacks Patton called, “A General’s Life.” The tone used in describing Patton, while in the first book admiring, has changed to bitter hatred. In his second book, Bradley attacks Patton where in the first book he seemed to approve. Read these two passages describing the same event.

“Patton telephoned me that evening from Lucky Forward near Laval. ‘We’ve got elements in Argentan,’ he reported. ‘Let me go on to Falaise and we’ll drive the British back into the sea for another Dunkirk.’‘Nothing doing,’ I told him, for I was fearful of colliding with Montgomery’s forces. ‘You’re not to go beyond Argentan. Just stop where you are and build up that shoulder. Sibert tells me the German is beginning to pull out. You’d better button up and get ready for him.’” “A Soldier’s Story,” by General Omar N. Bradley

“I had a sharp telephone exchange with Patton that morning. He further infuriated me with his boastful, supercilious attitude. ‘Let me go on to Falaise and we’ll drive the British back into the sea for another Dunkirk.’ I replied coldly and firmly, ‘Nothing doing. You’re not to go beyond Argentan. Just stop where you are and build up that shoulder.’” “A General’s Life,” by General Omar N. Bradley

And while in the first account Bradley seems happy that Patton recalled Haislip “without a word,” in the second account, Bradley is “furious” that Patton did not ask to advance Haislip in the first place. There is a very clear difference in Bradley’s attitude towards Patton in both books. Why?

It first must be realized that Bradley lived into the 1980s – long enough to see the collapse of the post-war reputations. Bradley had lived a long and prosperous life. He had commanded in Korea and had been promoted to five-star general. Bradley knew that he had risen higher than Patton would ever have been allowed to go. Yet Bradley must also have known that he was eclipsed by the genius of the man whom he had commanded. Bradley must have read many of the books by historians who had begun to realize that Patton had been unjustly cheated of many opportunities – like Falaise – for winning the war.

Bradley lived to read books by historians who had uncovered evidence that Eisenhower and Montgomery were bad commanders who had purposely “lost” files pertaining to their disasters. “Patton’s Gap,” with its evidence that Bradley had changed his version of events to match Eisenhower’s, had been published as well. There were some cloudy circumstances around his own Hurtgen Forest and Battle of the Bulge, too.

Patton had emerged the true hero of WWII – Bradley was only a five star general who had survived the war. Historians already knew that one of the reasons Bradley was promoted was because he was so weak-kneed. Did Bradley read the books that proved Patton was denied gas for his attacks? Or the books that showed he had ignored Patton’s timely advice predicting the Battle of the Bulge? It would have been difficult for Bradley to ignore the evidence that Eisenhower’s, Montgomery’s, and his own reputation were not going to last beyond his lifetime.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 7/9/2004 2:47:46 PM >


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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 5:19:21 PM   
Von Rom


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Here are some comments about Patton by high ranking German Officers:

The Germans respected Patton’s strategy and admired its genius, calling him the Allies' "most modern" commander.

German Major General Schimpf of the 3rd Paratroop Division called Patton’s campaign in the Palatinate "phenomenal."

Rommel wrote that, "We had to wait until the Patton Army in France to see the most astonishing achievements in mobile warfare."

Von Rundstedt simply called Patton our "best."

General Fritz Bayerlain, the able commander of the Panzer Lehr Division and a veteran of North Africa, assesses the escape of Rommel's Panzer Armee Afrika after Alamein: "I do not think General Patton would have let us get away so easily (as Monty had)" (D'Este, p.815).

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 7/9/2004 3:20:42 PM >


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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 6:40:40 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

IronDuke:

When I mentioned the fact that many critics usually start out having an agenda, I was not referring to you. I was referring to critics in general (usually those individuals who take the time to write and publish books).


Indeed, but you must recognise that this is as likely to be the case with D'Este's admiring biography as it it with anyone else, or is your suggestion that only those who dislike Patton have this agenda?

quote:

As for Bradley despising Patton: Patton's long-time staff had been with Patton for a long time and they remained steadfastly loyal to him. The hundreds of thousands of soldiers who served under Patton, loved him. Even the soldiers Patton slapped said they deserved to be slapped.

Contrary to what was shown in the movie, when Patton was forced to apologize to Third Army (for the slapping incident), all his soldiers cheered loudly, so that Patton could not utter his apology. They (the soldiers of Third Army) felt that the General did not have to apologize to them. This act brought tears to Patton's eyes.


Irrelevant, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, as I've said already, Monty's men loved him, many Generals could claim the same. I've even seen Haig remembered fondly by survivors of the Great War. It doesn't prove anything except their men liked them. I don't think this is unusual in combat units. Given Patton's tendancy to lead from the front and take the same sort of risks as his men, I'd be surprised if he wasn't popular. This doesn't make him some sort of strategic genius (which I thought was the essence of this thread) it just means his men liked him.

Secondly, loyalty is also not uncommon. Monty's key staff were with him for years. Ulltimately, you keep people on because you work well with them, you respect them, and you like them. In those circumstances, I'd again be surprised if many generals were heavily criticised by their staff. Many German Generals had criticims to make, but then they lost the war, and such criticisms come easier to them.

quote:

I would take the opinion of 300,000 men (who trained under, and fought for, Patton) over Bradley's opinion, any day of the week. . .


I wouldn't, not when it came to operational matters. As someone else pointed out, many men fought to the death for the Fuhrer, whose grip on strategic reality by 1944 was fast becoming tenuous at best.

quote:

Patton was not alone in being the victim of petty jealousies: Rommel had his critics too, while he fought in North Africa. And those same critics were instrumental in keeping reinforcements from getting to him.


Debateable. It's interesting to note that as late as 1944, Rommel still had direct access to Hitler over his nominal Superior Von Rundstedt. Hitler liked him, and the real cause of the fallout between them was Hitler, not anyone in his headquarters.

What kept reinforcements from Rommel was a strategic situation in Russia that demanded all resources available. Africa was never more than a sideshow. Since the german supply situation in Africa was perilous at best, even if he had had such forces, they would have been stuck in some north african port witing for the fuel to drive out to reach him at El Alamein. Reinforcements are only good if you can feed them, transport them, and provide them with ammunition to shoot. If Hitler refused him reinforcements, it was not because of intrigue against Rommel.

quote:

This ends my discussion on this topic.


This I know to be nonsense, and what is more, I can prove it.

Regards,
IronDuke

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Post #: 72
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 7:01:26 PM   
Von Rom


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To paraphrase: "Just when I thought I got out. . . they pulled me back in. . ."

Rommel In North Africa:

Yes, I am aware of Rommel's supply problems.

However, you seem to have over-looked Rommel's personal and political enemies, GeneralOberst Jodl and Field Marshal Albert Keitel, who had Hitler's ear during the time of Rommel's command in North Africa, and whom Heinrich Himmler said he believed played a "higher part" in Rommel's death.


D'Este's Book "Patton: A Genuis for War":

On the whole it is a fairly balanced book - looking at all the evidence and presenting the good with the bad.

This is not so with Bradley's second book, the object of which, was to go out of its way to pour vindictive upon Patton's name. See the above post for some reasons for this vindictive approach on Bradley's part.

Some reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060927623/002-0421982-5994431?v=glance

http://stonebooks.com/archives/951127.shtml



Anyway, I have said all I need to on this topic. I posted the above info for others' reading.

Signing off. . .

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 7/9/2004 5:22:03 PM >


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RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 7:22:22 PM   
ShermanM4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Here is an excellent website that helps to explain Bradley's hatred for Patton:

http://www.pattonuncovered.com/html/bradley.html


Here is an excerpt:

Patton is the only clear voice that remains from WWII without need of deciphering. We are extremely lucky that Patton followed General Pershing’s advice and kept a diary. Without Patton’s diary, we would not have clear proof of his incredible “sixth sense:” his accurate guesses as to the intention of the enemy. It is easy for a commander to say, years after the war, that he “knew all along” the enemy was about to attack. That commander must be able to prove that he knew – and the best proof is a day-to-day account in a war diary.

In “A Soldier’s Story,” Bradley praises Patton with what would seem mollified respect. But in 1983 Bradley wrote another vicious book that fiercely attacks Patton called, “A General’s Life.” The tone used in describing Patton, while in the first book admiring, has changed to bitter hatred. In his second book, Bradley attacks Patton where in the first book he seemed to approve. Read these two passages describing the same event.

“Patton telephoned me that evening from Lucky Forward near Laval. ‘We’ve got elements in Argentan,’ he reported. ‘Let me go on to Falaise and we’ll drive the British back into the sea for another Dunkirk.’‘Nothing doing,’ I told him, for I was fearful of colliding with Montgomery’s forces. ‘You’re not to go beyond Argentan. Just stop where you are and build up that shoulder. Sibert tells me the German is beginning to pull out. You’d better button up and get ready for him.’” “A Soldier’s Story,” by General Omar N. Bradley

“I had a sharp telephone exchange with Patton that morning. He further infuriated me with his boastful, supercilious attitude. ‘Let me go on to Falaise and we’ll drive the British back into the sea for another Dunkirk.’ I replied coldly and firmly, ‘Nothing doing. You’re not to go beyond Argentan. Just stop where you are and build up that shoulder.’” “A General’s Life,” by General Omar N. Bradley

And while in the first account Bradley seems happy that Patton recalled Haislip “without a word,” in the second account, Bradley is “furious” that Patton did not ask to advance Haislip in the first place. There is a very clear difference in Bradley’s attitude towards Patton in both books. Why?

It first must be realized that Bradley lived into the 1980s – long enough to see the collapse of the post-war reputations. Bradley had lived a long and prosperous life. He had commanded in Korea and had been promoted to five-star general. Bradley knew that he had risen higher than Patton would ever have been allowed to go. Yet Bradley must also have known that he was eclipsed by the genius of the man whom he had commanded. Bradley must have read many of the books by historians who had begun to realize that Patton had been unjustly cheated of many opportunities – like Falaise – for winning the war.

Bradley lived to read books by historians who had uncovered evidence that Eisenhower and Montgomery were bad commanders who had purposely “lost” files pertaining to their disasters. “Patton’s Gap,” with its evidence that Bradley had changed his version of events to match Eisenhower’s, had been published as well. There were some cloudy circumstances around his own Hurtgen Forest and Battle of the Bulge, too.

Patton had emerged the true hero of WWII – Bradley was only a five star general who had survived the war. Historians already knew that one of the reasons Bradley was promoted was because he was so weak-kneed. Did Bradley read the books that proved Patton was denied gas for his attacks? Or the books that showed he had ignored Patton’s timely advice predicting the Battle of the Bulge? It would have been difficult for Bradley to ignore the evidence that Eisenhower’s, Montgomery’s, and his own reputation were not going to last beyond his lifetime.


Thats a brilliant conclusion Von Rom. It sounds like you've done some very good research into this subject. However, I did not realize that Eisenhower and Bradley held a sort of celebrity status as the brilliant victors of the war while Patton experienced a temporary eclipse. A good point all around.

_____________________________


"Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages."

~General George Washington


(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 74
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 7:48:02 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Here is an excellent website that helps to explain Bradley's hatred for Patton:

http://www.pattonuncovered.com/html/bradley.html


Here is an excerpt:

Patton is the only clear voice that remains from WWII without need of deciphering. We are extremely lucky that Patton followed General Pershing’s advice and kept a diary. Without Patton’s diary, we would not have clear proof of his incredible “sixth sense:” his accurate guesses as to the intention of the enemy. It is easy for a commander to say, years after the war, that he “knew all along” the enemy was about to attack. That commander must be able to prove that he knew – and the best proof is a day-to-day account in a war diary.

In “A Soldier’s Story,” Bradley praises Patton with what would seem mollified respect. But in 1983 Bradley wrote another vicious book that fiercely attacks Patton called, “A General’s Life.” The tone used in describing Patton, while in the first book admiring, has changed to bitter hatred. In his second book, Bradley attacks Patton where in the first book he seemed to approve. Read these two passages describing the same event.

“Patton telephoned me that evening from Lucky Forward near Laval. ‘We’ve got elements in Argentan,’ he reported. ‘Let me go on to Falaise and we’ll drive the British back into the sea for another Dunkirk.’‘Nothing doing,’ I told him, for I was fearful of colliding with Montgomery’s forces. ‘You’re not to go beyond Argentan. Just stop where you are and build up that shoulder. Sibert tells me the German is beginning to pull out. You’d better button up and get ready for him.’” “A Soldier’s Story,” by General Omar N. Bradley

“I had a sharp telephone exchange with Patton that morning. He further infuriated me with his boastful, supercilious attitude. ‘Let me go on to Falaise and we’ll drive the British back into the sea for another Dunkirk.’ I replied coldly and firmly, ‘Nothing doing. You’re not to go beyond Argentan. Just stop where you are and build up that shoulder.’” “A General’s Life,” by General Omar N. Bradley

And while in the first account Bradley seems happy that Patton recalled Haislip “without a word,” in the second account, Bradley is “furious” that Patton did not ask to advance Haislip in the first place. There is a very clear difference in Bradley’s attitude towards Patton in both books. Why?

It first must be realized that Bradley lived into the 1980s – long enough to see the collapse of the post-war reputations. Bradley had lived a long and prosperous life. He had commanded in Korea and had been promoted to five-star general. Bradley knew that he had risen higher than Patton would ever have been allowed to go. Yet Bradley must also have known that he was eclipsed by the genius of the man whom he had commanded. Bradley must have read many of the books by historians who had begun to realize that Patton had been unjustly cheated of many opportunities – like Falaise – for winning the war.

Bradley lived to read books by historians who had uncovered evidence that Eisenhower and Montgomery were bad commanders who had purposely “lost” files pertaining to their disasters. “Patton’s Gap,” with its evidence that Bradley had changed his version of events to match Eisenhower’s, had been published as well. There were some cloudy circumstances around his own Hurtgen Forest and Battle of the Bulge, too.

Patton had emerged the true hero of WWII – Bradley was only a five star general who had survived the war. Historians already knew that one of the reasons Bradley was promoted was because he was so weak-kneed. Did Bradley read the books that proved Patton was denied gas for his attacks? Or the books that showed he had ignored Patton’s timely advice predicting the Battle of the Bulge? It would have been difficult for Bradley to ignore the evidence that Eisenhower’s, Montgomery’s, and his own reputation were not going to last beyond his lifetime.


And you don't think that this man has an pro-Patton agenda?

quote:

Yet Bradley must also have known that he was eclipsed by the genius of the man whom he had commanded.


or

quote:

Historians already knew that one of the reasons Bradley was promoted was because he was so weak-kneed.


He claims that Bradley was embittered after reading Patton's diaries, but it might equally be that after years of being polite, Bradley realised Patton's true feelings and decided to get his own true feelings off his chest.

The best bit is

quote:

“His success is due to his lack of backbone and subservience to those above him. I will manage without him. In fact, I always have; even in Sicily he had to be carried.” Patton’s Diary

True, but undoubtedly infuriating to its subject.


Given the discussion we've already had, it's clear that Patton spent most of Sicily improving his own reputation with a massive attack that achieved precisely nothing (except good headlines). In these circumstances, Patton's comments make no sense. The Author of your website seems to decry Bradley's literary efforts, but accept as authentic and unbiased Patton's diary entries. This has agenda written all over it.

As for the origins of Bradley's problems with Patton, read this from D'Este:

quote:

Since the invasion he [Bradley] had grown increasingly disenchanted with his mercurial Boss....Since the invasion he had grown critical of Patton's direction of the American ground effort, and both the boundary line incident and the Palermo opoeration had buttressed Bradley's conviction that Patton was turning out to be a poor commander. [Bradley] believed that Palermo, and now the fixation with Messina, were thinly disguised ploys for headlines at the expense of his troops.


Bradley thought the Palermo operation glory hunting and strategically pointless, he was appalled by some of the things that happened later on the road to Messina. At one point, Patton demanded an amphib operation at Brolo. Bradley (and the General slated to lead the attack) wanted a postponement because the necessary artillery and troops to support the amphib attack behind the German lines was not going to be ready. Patton exploded, insisted the attack go ahead because correspondents would be with the Amphib foces and a delay would look bad. The attack went ahead, and nearly failed. Bradley was appalled later when Patton's HQs insisted a second amphib attack take place, because the landing point was behind American lines. The troops jumped off the boats to be met by an American General on the beach.

To round it off, Patton ordered no attempt to take Messina until he was in the area to lead the triumphal entry. Bradley reports how he had to hold his men in the hills around Messina waiting for Patton rather than storming into the town to capture as many of the fleeing Germans as he could. Truscott reports how an Italian who entered American positions offered to surrender the town, and Truscott had to refuse, as he was waiting for Patton. You previously told us Patton was a man who took many prisoners, and made long sweeping pincer movements. Here, Americans sit idly by unable to take the key town of Messina because George and his cameraman have not yet arrived.

Your new website's assertion that we can take Patton's diaries as the truth because they were contemporary and never meant for publication is also interesting. At the beginning of the Sicily campaign, two american GIs massacred 73 Italian POWS. Patton was told of the incident and wrote in his diary that Bradley (who was horrified) should tell the Officer responsible to certify that the dead men had been snipers or prisoners attempting to escape as the press would kick up a stink otherwise.

An eyewitness to the time when Patton was told reports that George actually said: "Try the $%^&$%^&".

Clearly, his diaries are not quite the historical mine of information it is sometimes claimed. They have no more validity than Bradley's post war reminisinces.

Patton is perhaps not the second world war's "only clear voice".


Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 75
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 8:21:02 PM   
freeboy

 

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Diaries need to be read as a non objective view on reality... take Ceasars diary accounts, he knew they would be read and took great pains to make his fabulous feats even more so. Patton was a flawed man, no one claims other wise.. but the issue really is leadership and generalship. He ranks at the top because his troops performed, and he was a daring commander who looked to beat his oppenent not safely advance to the next town.
The comparrison to Bradly is excellent. Both West pointers... one an excellent manager.. beans and bullets but inspired leadership? The other was all about the big picture...
Perhaps our debate here has more to do with who WE are than who these figures where?????

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
Post #: 76
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 8:30:43 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Here are some comments about Patton by high ranking German Officers:


I have some as well.

quote:

The Germans respected Patton’s strategy and admired its genius, calling him the Allies' "most modern" commander.


Please cite source.

quote:

German Major General Schimpf of the 3rd Paratroop Division called Patton’s campaign in the Palatinate "phenomenal."


Interesting. I think it was Chester Wilmott who pointed out that Von Rundstedt's Panzer divisions had been withdrawn from the area. The line was already largely shattered when Patton jumped off and there were no reserves left to restore the situation. Once again we have Patton in his element, driving through a defeated enemy. I've already stated he could drive tanks like no one else in the Allied Army provided there was nothing to block his way. He was a logistician.

quote:

Rommel wrote that, "We had to wait until the Patton Army in France to see the most astonishing achievements in mobile warfare."


We've discussed this in detail. You are yet to illustrate that Patton did anything more than what I basically described above. A fast armoured drive through a shattered enemy (an enemy shattered by others). The drive was flawed as the joy ride through Brittany illustrates and the advance of Montgomery through France after Falaise was closed was also impressive.

As Guderian writes:

quote:

There was a great shortage of troops that could not be made up. Hence Patton in his race across France found no real resistance


Von Rundstedt:

quote:

Von Rundstedt simply called Patton our "best."


Whether true or not, this doesn't mean he was good. Merely that the Allies were generally poorly led at Army level.

quote:

General Fritz Bayerlain, the able commander of the Panzer Lehr Division and a veteran of North Africa, assesses the escape of Rommel's Panzer Armee Afrika after Alamein: "I do not think General Patton would have let us get away so easily (as Monty had)" (D'Este, p.815).


No Allied Commander would have pursued Panzer Armee Africa as poorly as Montgomery did. It was beaten, I've already stated that Patton could drive Tanks. This statement is probably a true reflection. He would have chased a lot harder. In Monty's favour, Patton would have had more problems breaking down the German positions at El Alamein.

I could also quote Max Simon speaking specifically about 3rd Army:

quote:

The tactics of the Americans were based on the idea of taking down a wall by taking out one brick at a time. They did this with tanks against which we had nothing to employ. However, since your attacks were divided amongst several local attacks instead of being concentrated at one point, we, with adequate equipment could have repelled these attacks and rejoined our broken line.


Simon is pointing out that "our best" did not know how to employ armour when attacking defended positions. There was no concentration, no Schwerpunkt, just attack everywhere. You see it time and again with Patton. A wide assault into the weak German lines on the southern shoulder of the Ardennes. Pointless frontal attacks on Metz. Again in November 1944 in the Saar area, against a weak German front line, Patton could only attack everywhere. No real point of concentration. As a result, these weak German defences could only be pushed back 15 miles in 8 days. With every unit attacking, Patton could not and did not concentrate his artillery to allow a decisive breakthrough.

Patton himself wrote to his wife explaining what he had attacked the German front line at it's strongest point:

quote:

because a straight line is the shortest distance between points


Does anyone think that Guderian, Hoth, Kleist, Rommel, Manstein, Balck and a hundred other recognised exponents of armoured warfare would ever have thought like this??????

On the debit side, he had so many bad points that ultimately, History's judgement can not be favourable.

For the record, Patton had no equal on the Allied side in pursuit of a beaten enemy. Put him in front of a front line that was at least cohesive and he had no more success than anyone else. Anyone who believes otherwise, please cite an operation that we can debate. Please lets not go on quoting other sources saying the same things. We can only discuss this by analysing his operations, I refuse to accept that someone was good or bad merely because someone else said so.

regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 77
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 8:44:50 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

Thats a brilliant conclusion Von Rom. It sounds like you've done some very good research into this subject. However, I did not realize that Eisenhower and Bradley held a sort of celebrity status as the brilliant victors of the war while Patton experienced a temporary eclipse. A good point all around.


Sherman,
Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton (and Montgomery for that matter) all held celebrity status after the war. Patton did not experience a temporary eclipse, he was too good at managing the photo opportunity to be eclipsed. He also had Scott's sympathetic film in later years, I'm not aware of any of the other major Commanders being portrayed on screen so famously.

The post war Allied problems largely erupted for two reasons. Firstly (and this wasn't Patton's fault, he died shortly after the war ended) most of the major participants led by Monty I think, went into print. Monty was scathing about just about everyone. this caused everyone to rush to print to defend themselves.
This is where controversies over Falaise, the broad front strategy, Ike versus Monty etc really started.

Secondly, a number of post war historians began to question Allied performance in the field. This inevitably led to an examination of the Major operations and the Generals concerned. There was never an eclipse of Patton. I don't think any of the Commanders have come out of the war on the Allied side particularly well. You can find scathing comments on them all.

There was no conspiracy about Patton, save that his Peers (Bradley and Eisenhower) never liked him. In Sicily, both men came to dislike and distrust him. Bradley in particular. His dislike was not a product of his post war memoirs, it was merely the place it found it's expression.

For the record, Patton was a first class logistician, he could drive men and perform feats of movement that the Germans would have appreciated. However, he was no tactician or strategist, and he had numerous personal faults that a man of his rank should not have had.

I'm sorry if you find Von Rom's research better than mine. I can only stress that I am making a serious attempt in every post to analyse Patton's actions, not just other's opinions. I have attempted to analyse his actions as I think it is the clearest way of working out whether he was any good.

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to ShermanM4)
Post #: 78
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 9:07:21 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

To paraphrase: "Just when I thought I got out. . . they pulled me back in. . ."

Rommel In North Africa:

Yes, I am aware of Rommel's supply problems.

However, you seem to have over-looked Rommel's personal and political enemies, GeneralOberst Jodl and Field Marshal Albert Keitel, who had Hitler's ear during the time of Rommel's command in North Africa, and whom Heinrich Himmler said he believed played a "higher part" in Rommel's death.


You do not understand these men. These men were yes men. They held their commands because they did as they were told. They wouldn't even wake Hitler up on D-Day, so how you think they could have exercised any influence on Hitler concerning Rommel would be interesting to see. Do you have a source for this we could discuss.

On the more general point, you seem to agree that Rommel could not supply any more troops even if he had them, yet still say they were denied him because of petty jealosies. Might it have been that Keitel and Jodl realised more troops would be wasted in Africa because of the supply situation? Since Rommel could not have done anything with the reinforcements except surrender them, then surely they did the right thing (whatever the reason) in denying him them (if it was indeed them).

I seem to remember that Rommel frequently got promises of more support from Hitler, but that Hitler never fulfilled them. As the war in the east turned against the Germans, I'm not surprised.



quote:

D'Este's Book "Patton: A Genuis for War":

On the whole it is a fairly balanced book - looking at all the evidence and presenting the good with the bad.

This is not so with Bradley's second book, the object of which, was to go out of its way to pour vindictive upon Patton's name. See the above post for some reasons for this vindictive approach on Bradley's part.

Some reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060927623/002-0421982-5994431?v=glance

http://stonebooks.com/archives/951127.shtml


What surprises me is that anything complimentary is published and referenced, anything which isn't complimentary is "vindictive". Were Patton's diaries vindictive about Bradley, and just about everyone else? The weblink you listed might equally be described as "vindictive" about Bradley.

D'Este, your "looking at all the evidence and presenting the good with the bad" book quotes very freely from Bradley's work. Evidently D'Este felt that Bradley had something worthwhile to say, but you don't?

Indeed, I've made several quotes from D'Este that reveal he felt there were severe flaws in Patton. Let me sign off with this quote from the "looking at all the evidence and presenting the good with the bad" book.

quote:

Patton's achilles heel (which would be painfully evident later, in Lorraine) was that rather than cut his losses, he would attempt to storm his way out of a bad situation in the name of prestige. One of his critics scornfully notes that: "The third Army's wild rampage through Brittany obscured one central fact...west was precisely the wrong direction. Patton's greatest deficiency as a tank Commander: [was] his tendancy to think as a traditional Cavalry tactician and to care little what direction he was attacking in as long as he was attacking. "

Another biographer has written that Patton was "at his best and most successful only when he could apply his brillian loose rein cavalry tactics against an already confused and mostly mediocre enemy. This was to be the lesson of the Brittany campaign.


In the campaign in Sicily and North West Europe, this can be evidenced again and again and again. I've tried to discuss some of the examples in detail.

You may believe that the above description means Patton should be mentioned alongside Rommel, Guderian et al in any list of great WWII Generals. If so, then we will have problems discussing this because we do not share the same definition of a great General.

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Von Rom)
Post #: 79
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 9:23:31 PM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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Von Rom,
One last thing (unless provoked) I promise. The web page you refer to is one section of a larger site. The site is called

"The George S Patton Home Page". It also has this book to peddle concerning Patton's removal from command "Patton uncovered". If any web page ever had an agenda, this is it. How can you dismiss Bradley, yet quote freely from this page as if it is fact. These are Patton fans.

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
Post #: 80
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/9/2004 10:45:31 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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quote:

The post war Allied problems largely erupted for two reasons. Firstly (and this wasn't Patton's fault, he died shortly after the war ended) most of the major participants led by Monty I think, went into print. Monty was scathing about just about everyone. this caused everyone to rush to print to defend themselves.


Iron Duke, I think you may have nailed the biggest problem with the debate about Patton. The other commanders had their opportunities to write, be interviewed, analyse (and re-analyse over and over) their own wartime performances etc. etc. Patton, on the other hand, has almost passed into mythology since he never 'disgraced himself' (the way Monty, for one, did) after the war.

Thinking about my earlier comparison of MacArthur and Patton and my referring to them as 'Great Tacticians' I've focussed on where Patton was strongest, helped admittedly by some of the other posters here. Once he discovered the enemy's 'weak spot' he would exploit it with single-minded determination and once the enemy was defeated he would ensure they remained defeated. His 'charge' across France in 1944 shows this up well, although the 'detour' into Brittany also reflects his 'Lust for Glory' (had to get the film title in here somwhow).

_____________________________

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(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
Post #: 81
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/10/2004 12:25:50 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

The post war Allied problems largely erupted for two reasons. Firstly (and this wasn't Patton's fault, he died shortly after the war ended) most of the major participants led by Monty I think, went into print. Monty was scathing about just about everyone. this caused everyone to rush to print to defend themselves.


Iron Duke, I think you may have nailed the biggest problem with the debate about Patton. The other commanders had their opportunities to write, be interviewed, analyse (and re-analyse over and over) their own wartime performances etc. etc. Patton, on the other hand, has almost passed into mythology since he never 'disgraced himself' (the way Monty, for one, did) after the war.

Thinking about my earlier comparison of MacArthur and Patton and my referring to them as 'Great Tacticians' I've focussed on where Patton was strongest, helped admittedly by some of the other posters here. Once he discovered the enemy's 'weak spot' he would exploit it with single-minded determination and once the enemy was defeated he would ensure they remained defeated. His 'charge' across France in 1944 shows this up well, although the 'detour' into Brittany also reflects his 'Lust for Glory' (had to get the film title in here somwhow).


A good point, but I do think that had he lived to pen his memoirs, they would only have served to lessen his reputation as did Montgomery's. Monty's memoirs (as Pattons would have been, indeed most people's) were essentially a work of justification to show why he was right and everyone else wrong. In finding incorrect reasons to justify things, you give historians ammunition to criticise you with. For Monty, his twisting to justify strategy in the battle before Caen only served to highlight how it all went wrong. Even if Patton had been honest, he would have betrayed his deficiencies.

I think if Patton had gone into print, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That he didn't means we can believe the legend rather than the fact. The only place I'd digress with you is when you describe him finding the enemy weak spot. I don't think he knew how to find the weak spot, hence the principal of attack everywhere. Once the weak spot was shown him (Cobra) or the weak spot was too big to miss (Sicily) he was in his element.

My criticism should not blind us to Patton's abilities. It's just that we shouldn't credit him with military genius. For the Allies, he did things the cautious Bradley or the methodical Montgomery would never have done. However, they equally possessed skills he never demonstrated, and we are unfair to them if we are seduced by the pearl handled revolvers, the daring manner and the choice quotes into believing he was
exceptional.

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to EricGuitarJames)
Post #: 82
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/10/2004 2:57:34 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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'Duke, were you getting tired when you wrote this or was it me not being clear. Either way, we agree

Top generals, like top politicians, are rarely blessed with the gift of humility. The 'drive' required to get to the top of the greasy pole tends to negate such qualities. Rather thsn admit to errors they prefer to blame others (Sosabowski at Arnhem) or retrospectively twist facts (Caen, as you mention above) - I only choose these examples as Montgomery is immediate in my mind. Wellington is one of the few in history who made it to the top of both greasy poles yet emerged with his dignity and reputation relatively untarnished by unnecessary self-mythologysing (can you say that? did I spell it correctly? ). One of the reasons I like Slim is that his account of the campaign in India and Burma (Defeat Into Victory - a fine book!) is refreshingly honest with him being candid regarding his own shortcomings and the mistakes he made.

_____________________________

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Post #: 83
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/10/2004 8:03:58 PM   
Von Rom


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I am going to remain outside the discussion. What I will be posting here is information for the thoughtful and interested reader who does not have the time to read lengthy books, but who wishes a bit more information about General Patton and Third Army.

Below find General Patton's final orders to Third Army. In this letter he details the exploits of Third Army. For over 50 years these accomplishments remain undisputed.



General Patton's
Final General Orders

HEADQUARTERS
THIRD UNITED STATES ARMY

APO 403

GENERAL ORDERS 9 May 1945
NUMBER 98

SOLDIERS OF THE THIRD ARMY, PAST AND PRESENT


During the 281 days of incessant and victorious combat, your penetrations have advanced farther in less time than any other army in history. You have fought your way across 24 major rivers and innumerable lesser streams. You have liberated or conquered more than 82,000 square miles of territory, including 1,500 cities and towns, and some 12,000 inhabited places. Prior to the termination of active hostilities, you had captured in battle 956,000 enemy soldiers and killed or wounded at least 500,000 others. France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia bear witness to your exploits.

All men and women of the six corps and thirty-nine divisions that have at different times been members of this Army have done their duty. Each deserves credit. The enduring valor of the combat troops has been paralleled and made possible by the often unpublicized activities of the supply, administrative, and medical services of this Army and of the Communications Zone troops supporting it. Nor should we forget our comrades of the other armies and of the Air Force, particularly of the XIX Tactical Air Command, by whose side or under whose wings we have had the honor to fight.

In proudly contemplating our achievements, let us never forget our heroic dead whose graves mark the course of our victorious advances, nor our wounded whose sacrifices aided so much in our success.

I should be both ungrateful and wanting in candor if I failed to acknowledge the debt we owe to our Chiefs of Staff, Generals Gaffey and Gay, and to the officers and men of the General and Special Staff Sections of Army Headquarters. Without their loyalty, intelligence, and unremitting labors, success would have been impossible.

The termination of fighting in Europe does not remove the opportunities for other outstanding and equally difficult achievements in the days which are to come. In some ways the immediate future will demand of you more fortitude than has the past because, without the inspiration of combat, you must maintain - by your dress, deportment, and efficiency - not only the prestige of the Third Army but also the honor of the United States. I have complete confidence that you will not fail.

During the course of this war I have received promotions and decorations far above and beyond my individual merit. You won them; I as your representative wear them. The one honor which is mine and mine alone is that of having commanded such an incomparable group of Americans, the record of whose fortitude, audacity, and valor will endure as long as history lasts.

G. S. PATTON, JR.,
General

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 7/10/2004 6:28:25 PM >


_____________________________


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Post #: 84
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/10/2004 10:39:13 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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I don't thing anyone disputes the achievements of the Third Army in the closing nine months of WW2, what is questionable is how much of that is down to Patton's abilities as a commander. Some, including yourself Von Rom, believe that it is, others, including Iron Duke and myself, believe that it isn't.

Moving away from Patton and back to Monty and some of his comments on his own wartime 'performances' I came across this:-

from - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWmontgomery.htm

quote:

Bernard Montgomery wrote about Operation Market Garden in his autobiography, The Memoirs of Field Marshal Montgomery (1958)

Operation Market Garden was duly launched on the 17th September 1944. It has been described by many writers. I will not go over it all again. We did not, as everyone knows, capture that final bridgehead north of Arnhem. As a result we could not position the Second Army north of the Neder Rijn at Arnem, and thus place it in a suitable position to be able to develop operations against the north face of the Ruhr. But the possession of the crossings over the Meuse at Grave, and over the Lower Rhine (or Waal as it is called in Holland) at Nijmegen, were to prove of immense value later on; we had liberated a large part of Holland; we had the stepping stone we needed for the successful battles of the Rhineland that were to follow. Without these successes we would not have been able to cross the Rhine in strength in March 1945 - but we did not get our final bridgehead, and that must be admitted.

There were many reasons why we did not gain complete success at Arnhem. The following in my view were the main ones.

First. The operation was not regarded at Supreme Headquarters as the spearhead of a major Allied movement on the northern flank designed to isolate, and finally to occupy, the Ruhr - the one objective in the West which the Germans could not afford to lose. There is no doubt in my mind that Elsenhower always wanted to give priority to the northern thrust and to scale down the southern one. He ordered this to be done, and he thought that it was being done. It was not
being done.

Second. The airborne forces at Arnhem were dropped too far away from the vital objective - the bridge. It was some hours before they reached it. I take the blame for this mistake. I should have ordered Second Army and 1st Airborne Corps to arrange that at least one complete Parachute Brigade was dropped quite close to the bridge, so that it could have been captured in a matter of minutes and its defence soundly organised with time to spare. I did not do so.

Third. The weather. This turned against us after the first day and we could not carry out much of the later airborne programme. But weather is always an uncertain factor, in war and in peace. This uncertainty we all accepted. It could only have been offset, and the operation made a certainty, by allotting additional resources to the project, so that it became an Allied and not merely a British project.

Fourth. The and S.S. Panzer Corps was refitting in the Arnhem. area, having limped up there after its mauling in Normandy. We knew it was there. But we were wrong in supposing that it could not fight effectively; its battle state was far beyond our expectation. It was quickly brought into action against the 1st Airborne Division.


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Post #: 85
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/11/2004 1:50:45 AM   
Von Rom


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Here is some information about Patton's planning abilities:

Taken from the book:


The Unknown Patton


by


Charles M. Province


CHAPTER SEVEN



Some Misconceptions


(And Some Plain, Old Lies)

In the past, it has very often been the usual and accepted attitude of people that Patton was effective only as a field commander; that he was not suited for higher command, or for tactical and strategic planning.

The consensus of Patton's lack of ability was perhaps summed up best by Eisenhower when he once remarked to Patton, "George, you are a great leader, but a poor planner." Patton's reply was that "... except for [Operation] Torch, which I planned and which was a great success, I have never been given the chance to plan."

In the months to come, after North Africa, Patton was never "officially" asked about plans for any Allied operation. In private, though, it was a very different story. Very often, others would come to him to ask his views and ideas concerning future plans. Bradley, especially, would come to Patton to ask his opinion about impending operations. Often he would not only ask Patton's opinion, he would also "borrow" his thoughts. They would later turn up miraculously as Bradley's ideas. This situation became so bad that, eventually, Patton became fed up with Bradley receiving all of the credit for his ideas. As Patton put it, "I do not want any more of my ideas used without credit to me, as happens when I give them orally."

On the surface, this might seem to some people a selfish attitude, but a deeper study and thorough consideration of the situation will offer a better understanding. At Patton's expense, other General Officers were building their careers and gaining undue praise. Patton, himself, was being kept under wraps and he was being virtually ignored. Others of lesser ability were being promoted over him. In reality, he was pushing them up the ladder and they were taking the credit that was honestly due Patton.

Initially Patton did not mind Bradley stealing his ideas because as a soldier he realized that it would help the war effort. As time passed it became evident that the Allies would, indeed, win the war. Patton felt that he had been pushed far enough and that he had been taken advantage of too much. When Patton personally proffered his plans he was ignored. When Bradley put forth Patton's plans, as his own, they were most readily accepted for consideration.

Operation COBRA, the breakout in Normandy by Patton's armored divisions, was actually a slightly altered version of one of Patton's plans, but it was fully credited to Bradley. Actually, it was the first in a series of bold and brilliant plans devised by Patton during 1944.

The third Army staff never doubted that Bradley was making good in France by expropriating their boss's ideas. Patton's aide, Colonel Charles Codman, wrote to his wife, "As of August 1st, General Bradley has adopted practically all of General Patton's plans."

On august 14, 1944, Patton wrote in his diary regarding the St. Lo breakthrough, "It is really a great plan, wholly my own, and I made Bradley think that he thought of it."

Patton eventually became disgusted with the hypocrisy of the higher command. He stopped telling any of his plans to Bradley.

In reality, Patton was probably the best planner in the European Theater of Operations. Indeed, his knowledge of strategy and tactics were to say the least, equal if not superior to any of the high command such as Eisenhower, Bradley, Devers, Clark, and the British. Without exception, his intuitiveness and perceptiveness was never equaled by any of the "masterminds" at SHAEF.

Patton had worked long and hard over the years to become the competent soldier that he was. His years of dedicated study and application were not in vain. He had attended all of the Army's "command level" service schools. He not only graduated from them, but did so with honors.

In 1923, he completed the Field Officers Course at Fort Riley, Kansas.

In 1924, he was an honor graduate of the Command and General Staff College located at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. While at the Command and General Staff College, Patton compiled an extensive notebook which he loaned to Eisenhower when the latter attended the same school in 1926. Eisenhower graduated first in his class. He wrote to Patton thanking him for the loan of the notebook saying that it [the notebook] made all the difference in his class standing.

In June of 1932, Patton was a distinguished graduate of the Army War College at Washington, D.C. If measured by no other standard than by education alone, Patton was prepared for general officer rank.

December 12, 1917 was the date on a report entitled, "Light Tanks". It was a 58 page report written by Patton assimilating his most concise, salient knowledge concerning the new military arm then known as the "Tank Corps". His report was the foundation, the entire basis, for the whole U.S. Armored concept.

At the initialization of U. S. involvement in armor, Patton was not only the first soldier in the Tank Corps, he was the Tank Corps. He personally created the basic tank training procedures, the training instructions, the training manuals, the regulations, and the actual methods of instruction. He also created the entire Tables of Organization and Equipment for the Tank Corps. He was personally responsible for the original Tank Corps patch worn by members of the corps which was the forerunner of today's Armored Division patches.

In 1936, while stationed in Hawaii, Patton forecast a doctrine of amphibious warfare that proved to be highly, and terribly, prophetic.

After studying and observing the Japanese in the Pacific, Patton's conclusion was that they could and would utilize an air attack in the near future against Pearl Harbor. He wrote a paper on the subject in which his prophesy proved to be almost exactly the same as the actual Japanese attack on December 7, 1941.

By the time of the invasion of Sicily in 1943, Patton was regarded as one of the leading amphibious experts in the entire U.S. Army. Unfortunately, he would be excluded from any planning of European amphibious operations.

He wrote in 1936, of the Japanese, "... it is reliably reported that during the last four years three or more Japanese divisions were embarked, moved to the coast of Asia and disembarked without any military attache, consular agent, foreign press correspondent or any other foreigner living in Japan being aware of the fact until the troops were in action in Asia. Some of the Mandated Islands, about which absolutely nothing is known, are only 2,500 miles distant [from Hawaii], seven days' steaming over the loneliest sea lanes in the world. Who can say that an expeditionary force is not in these islands now?"

He warned against a surprise attack by the Japanese after participating in an annual exercise in Hawaii in 1937. He had specifically investigated the possibility of Hawaii's vulnerability to attack. He wrote, "The vital necessity to Japan of a short war and of the possession at it's termination of land areas for bargaining purposes may impel her to take drastic measures. It is the duty of the military to foresee and prepare against the worst possible eventuality."

Within four and a half years, Patton's warnings would prove themselves correct. He had made a very shrewd, perceptive estimate of Japanese planning. He was ignored.

In 1928, Patton did a study of tables of organization and equipment for an infantry rifle company, an infantry battalion, an infantry brigade, and an infantry division. He followed this with a comparison of the current division and his "proposed" division, illustrating that his recommended division would have a total strength of 9,715 men. The current division had 19,417 men. With Patton's proposed division, the firepower of the recommended organization would be far stronger, yet have 10,000 less men.

This was precisely what the "triangular" division of World War II sought to attain; more bang with less personnel.

Patton was also among the first to experiment with many new types of equipment. He used a personal command plane for reconnaissance. He experimented with radio equipment for "tank to tank" and "tank to command post" communication. He worked closely with J. Walter Christie in an attempt to create a new and better tank. He continually strove for better ways to accomplish his goal; killing the enemy. His papers, his magazine articles, his official reports, all that he studied simply reinforced his firm beliefs in the importance of mobility, speed, and surprise. He believed in the importance of the soldier rather than the machine; the importance of command, communications, and the supply line; the importance of air warfare and ground mechanization; and the continuing importance of the offensive, the attack.

He never ceased to believe that it was immensely cheaper for a nation to create and keep active a strong military organization than it was to lose, let alone fight, a war.

Had Patton's acumen been put to good use, instead of being wasted by men of lesser ability; men who had political aspirations and who suffered from great mediocrity, the war would have ended much sooner that it did, with the advantage of great savings in both lives and materials.

In WWII, alone, many examples exist of Patton's shrewdness, his "sixth sense" of combat. Both before the war and during the war he showed much farsightedness. Major errors occurred which could have been avoided in the ETO had Patton's advice been heeded.

In North Africa, the Allies were planning to attack the Germans in Tunisia on the 25th of December, 1943. Patton felt that this was, "... unwise, as, unless things have changed at the front, there is not enough force on our side to make a go of it. Nous Verrons (we shall see)."

Patton was right.

A lack of Allied strength in personnel and supplies, due to congested railroads, insufficient trucks, and mud-inducing rains, forced Eisenhower to admit that it was a mistake. He called off the attack.

General Mark Clark, in August of 1943, was preparing an invasion of Salerno, Italy. The code name for his attack was "Avalanche".

In the event that something might happen to Clark, Patton was told to familiarize himself with the plans for Avalanche. In his diary of September 1, he writes, "... I was very tactful (to General Gruenther), but could not help calling his attention to the fact that the plan uses the Sele River as a boundary between the British X Corps and the U.S. VI Corps, with no one actually on, or near the river. I told him that the Germans will attack down that river. He said that their plans provided for ample artillery to be ashore by 0630 on D Day to stop any German counter-attack. Of course, plans never work out (as expected), especially in a landing. I suggested this, but it did not register. I can't see why people are so foolish. I have yet to be questioned by any planner concerning my experience at Torch, yet Torch was the biggest and most difficult landing operation attempted so far."

True to Patton's prediction, the Germans did exactly as he said they would. Neither the Americans nor the British held the Sele River and the Germans counter-attacked down the river with such a strong drive that they came very close to completely dividing the Allied forces. The Allies position was so precarious that it almost caused an evacuation of the beachhead. Luckily, it was curtailed.

It was at this same time in the war that Bradley was chosen for the command spot of the 12th Army Group in the ETO, even though Patton was the only experienced American Army Commander in the ETO and he had more combat experience as a top field commander than anyone else, especially those above him. Bradley was chosen because, in Eisenhower's estimation, he was "balanced", "sound in judgement", and "experienced". Also because Bradley was a favorite of General Marshall. Bradley, thought Eisenhower, would be less apt to make mistakes than would Patton. Yet, Patton had not made a single mistake in judgement in the field. Another reason for not choosing Patton was because Eisenhower felt that he made "rash" or "spur of the moment" decisions. That was wholly inaccurate and a bad assumption on Eisenhower's part. As Patton puts it, "For years, I have been accused of making snap judgements. Honestly, this is not the case because I am a profound military student and the thoughts I express, perhaps too flippantly, are the result of years of thought and study."

The most probable reason for Bradley's placement above Patton was simply that General Marshall wanted it, and what Marshall wanted, Eisenhower was in no position to decline. Eisenhower was fearful of losing his lofty position.

In a letter dated September 16, from Eisenhower to Marshall, Eisenhower states, "... his intense loyalty to you and to me makes it possible for me to treat him [Patton] much more roughly than I could any other senior commander ..."

This passage offers some very enlightening insight to the personality and ego of both Eisenhower and Marshall. Patton's firm belief in loyalty from the top to the bottom, as well as from the bottom to the top, was virtually wasted on men of their caliber. It is apparent that to them, loyalty was something to be used to attain personal goals. In lieu of appreciating Patton, they chose to take undue advantage of him and his great ability, not only to use, but to abuse him and his loyalty and friendship to them.

In an entry to his diary dated February 12, Patton writes, "Ike said to me, "You are fundamentally honest on the larger issues, but are too fanatical in your friendships." This seems a strange thing to say to a friend of almost 20 years, but, then, Eisenhower was concerned more with his position and his personal ambition than he was with loyalty to an old friend.

Patton's diary entry of September 8 indicates another prediction of error. He states, "[The Italian] armistice was just declared ... I fear that as a soldier I have too little faith in political war. Suppose the Italians can't or don't capitulate? ... It is a great mistake to inform the troops, as has been done, of the signing of an armistice. Should they get resistance ... [during the landings at Salerno] it would have a very bad effect."

Again, Patton was right.

The surrender of the Italians was announced on September 8, in the evening, as Clark's 5th Army was approaching Salerno Bay. The news was broadcast over all of the ships' speakers. Immediately the troops assumed that there would be no active resistance against them during the landings and there was a letdown of fighting spirit. The officers were ignored when they warned that Germans and not Italians would be on the beaches. A great many lives were needlessly wasted by this foolish act.

Patton wrote in his diary of September 15, "... just saw a dispatch from Navy in which it seems that Clark has re-embarked. I consider this a fatal thing to do. Think of the effect on the troops -- a commander, once ashore, must conquer or die." Clark was apparently more concerned about his own safety than he was about either his soldiers lives or their morale. Nor did his actions indicate too great a concern about gaining a victory.

A diary entry of January 20 mentions the Anzio landings, code named "Operation Shingle". Patton says, "Shingle is pretty dubious as the beaches are bad and largely unknown ... It seems inconceivable that the Germans will not guess that we are coming ashore at Anzio, but they have made so many foolish mistakes that we may get ashore unopposed after all."

Patton was right. That is exactly what happened.

Sometime later, in April of 1944, Patton at least had occasion to have a chuckle to himself. One of Patton's soldiers had overheard a heated discussion between General Albert C. Wedemeyer and Eisenhower. The discussion was about Patton. The final remark of the little talk ended with General Wedemeyer saying, "Hell, get onto yourself, Ike. You didn't make Patton, he made you!" That knowledge must have been quite a piledriver blow to Eisenhower's mushrooming megalomania.

Patton entered a comment about the Falaise Gap dated August 13. He says, "This [XV] Corps could easily advance to Falaise and completely close the gap, but we have been ordered to halt because the British sowed the area between with a large number of time bombs [dropped from the air]. I am sure that this halt is a great mistake, as I am certain that the British will not close on Falaise."

On September 17th, Patton wrote in his diary, concerning Montgomery and his "Operation Market-Garden", "To hell with Monty. I must get so involved that they can't stop me. I told Bradley not to call me until after dark on the 19th. He agreed."

From all appearances, Bradley was finally coming around to Patton's viewpoint. He, too, had seen enough of Eisenhower's two-faced attitude to see the handwriting on the wall. In any case of differing viewpoints between the Americans and the British, the British invariably won. Eisenhower's strategy for getting along with the "Allies" was to give into them on each and every point, even if it meant de-moralizing, and self-defeating humiliation for, his own American forces.

Eisenhower had, on numerous occasions, shown his timidity, his inadequacy, and his inability to command or control the British. On February 3, 1943, Patton recalled that, "Ike talked in glittering generalities and then said as nearly as I can remember, "George, you are my oldest friend, but if you or anyone else criticizes the British, by God, I will reduce him to his permanent grade and send him home." So much for fair and equal justice between Americans and the British.

In April of 1943, concerning a matter of American honor, Patton writes, "It is noteworthy that had I done what Coningham did, I would have been relieved. Ike told me later that he could not punish Coningham [for calling the Americans cowards] because he was a New Zealander and political reasons forbad it. Unfortunately, I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican -- just a soldier."

Again, another "Allied" general, did the same thing. Patton writes on April 16, "Lt. General Cocran, the s.o.b., publicly called our troops cowards. Ike says that since they were serving in his corps, that was O.K. I told him that had I so spoken of the British under me, my head would have come off. He agreed, but does nothing to Cocran. Bradley, Hughes, General Rooks, and I and probably many more, feel that America is being sold out. I have been more than loyal to Ike. I have talked to no one and I have taken things from the British that I would never take from an American. If this trickery to America comes from above, it is utterly damnable. If it emanates from Ike, it is utterly terrible. I seriously talked to Hughes of asking to be relieved as a protest. I feel like Judas. Hughes says that he and I and some others must stick it out to save the pieces."

Patton says in April 27, 1944, "None of those at Ike's headquarters ever go to bat for juniors. In any argument between the British and the Americans, they invariably favor the British. Benedict Arnold is a piker compared with them, and that includes General Lee as well as Ike and Beedle Smith."

One good reason for Eisenhower to be so lacking in backbone was his fear of Montgomery, or rather, the fear of the "power" that he thought Montgomery to have. Patton's diary of May 4, 1943 states, "Bedell Smith ... says that the reason everyone yields to Monty is because Monty is the National Hero and writes directly to the Prime Minister; and that if Ike crossed him, Ike would get canned."

Still another monumental error made by SHAEF and Eisenhower is the "Battle of the Bulge". The Germans called it the "Ardennes Offensive". As early as December 12, Patton wrote about the possibility of a growing German salient in the area of Bastogne, "... The First Army is making a terrible mistake in leaving the VIII Corps static, as it is highly probable that the Germans are building up east of them."

An interesting and noteworthy fact concerning Bastogne is that Hodges and Bradley both received a Distinguished Service Medal for their part in the defense of that small town, although their laxity in leadership and command greatly assisted the Germans in launching their offensive. Patton and his Third Army received not as much as a polite thank you for their monumental and heroic part in coming to their rescue.

On the day that Patton's Third Army had taken the German city of Trier, Bradley sent orders not to try to capture it, as Patton had only two divisions. Bradley and his planners said that it would require at least three divisions to capture the historic city.

Once again, Patton was right.

He sent a reply to Bradley, "Have taken city with two divisions, shall I give it back?" He also entered in his diary, "I have certainly again proven that my military ideas are correct and I have put them over in SPITE of opposition from the Americans."

The fact is that Patton was consistently correct in his military ideas. He was not only the best combat commander in the ETO; he was one of, if not the best strategic and tactical planners, in the ETO. Yet, repeatedly, he was ignored, though his record and opinions were continually proven to be RIGHT.

According to Patton, the basic, underlying truth in war is that strategy is actually not very important. As he so succinctly puts it, "Good tactics can save even the worst strategy. Bad tactics can ruin even the best strategy." That concept, as simple as it is, is perhaps the best strategy of all.

Any adequate general can decide where he wants to fight a battle, but the important thing is to get the needed supplies, men, and proper leadership to the right place at the right time. Then, and only then, can the enemy be annihilated. That is how a battle is won.

It is inconceivable that a man such as Patton, who studied, ate, slept, and lived the histories of war and warriors from Xenophon, Alexander, Scipio, Napoleon, to Lee and Grant, could not help but to be a great strategist as well as a great tactician.

It is pure folly and, indeed, absurd to believe that because Patton was never given the chance to plan high level strategy that he should be precluded from the ranks of the great Captains of war.

Perhaps the most unfortunate problem that plagued the Americans during WWII was the fact that the top leadership was made up of men who had never exercised command at any level and had little, if any, actual combat experience.

Lack of command experience was indeed the case with Eisenhower. Consciousness of his own lack of experience of front-line fighting led him to accept advice rather than make his own decisions. He ran SHAEF more along the lines of a board-room than a military headquarters. A Supreme Commander cannot act in the way of a chairman of the board, but must be fully in command, making all decisions firmly, decisively, and alone. The bitter truth is that Eisenhower, never really got the feel of what went on at the front end of his armies. Never having personally been through the rigors of close combat, he deferred too much to the advice of others less qualified than Patton. Patton noted in his diary about this situation, "Ike ... is very querulous and keeps saying how hard it is to be so high and never to have heard a hostile shot. He could correct that situation very easily if he wanted to. I also think that he is timid."

Later, when Patton was thoroughly fed up with Eisenhower and his pomposity, he wrote, "Ike is bitten with the Presidential Bug and is yellow." Patton's appraisal of Eisenhower's coveting of the Presidency was noted as early as 1943, in Africa. During the time that Patton was planning his resignation from the Army he wrote, "... I shall prove even more conclusively that he lacks moral fortitude. This lack has been evident to me since the first landing in Africa, but now that he has been bitten by the Presidential Bee, it is becoming even more pronounced."

The entire problem of a High Command with experience other than "theoretical knowledge", as Patton puts it, may be summed up in a further quote from Patton's diary. He says, "In this war, we were also unfortunate in that our High Command in the main consisted of staff officers who, like Marshall, Eisenhower, and McNarny, had practically never exercised command. I think it was this lack of experience which induced them to think of and to treat units such as Divisions, Corps, and Armies as animated "tables of organization" rather than the living entities that they are."


*** NEWS ITEM ***


"BLOOD AND GUTS" CREDITED; BOOK MAY BURN ARMY BRASS


New York, April 30 -(AP)-

General George S. Patton, even though dead, was right back today where he always liked to be -- in the middle of a hot argument.

Col. Brenton G. Wallace, a staff officer under "Blood And Guts", has written a book called "Patton and the Third Army", which is sure to burn the Army's brass.

Wallace claims that Patton was chiefly responsible both for the planning and execution of the famous St. Lo breakthrough, which swept on past Avranches and eventually hurled all the German armies out of France.

Battle plan credit, up until now, has gone uncontested to shrewd General Omar N. Bradley, who later commanded the 12th Army Group and many experts have laid the brilliant execution of the plan at the door of Lt. Gen. Joseph L. (Lightning Joe) Collins, a corps commander in the First Army.

But Wallace, who served as assistant chief of staff in G-3 (liaison) for the Third Army writes: "The First Army was given credit, whereas Gen. Patton planned it and executed it and used not only First Army troops but also a number of his own Third Army units."

Wallace, however, gives Bradley credit for his foresight in placing Patton "in charge of the breakthrough itself."


http://www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap07.html

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Post #: 86
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/11/2004 3:14:01 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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You just can't stay away can you

As I wrote earlier, Patton is still a controversial figure and brings out strong opinions in people.

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Post #: 87
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/11/2004 3:34:34 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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This is something I 'snipped' from a much longer piece on quite a nice site. It's dealing with part of Pattons drive to relieve Bastogne.

http://www.thetroubleshooters.com/br122.html

quote:

The 352nd Volks Grenadier Division (General Schmidt) on the morning was advancing along the Diekirch-Ettelbruck-Merzig highway in front of, but at a right angle to the American advance from the south. Schmidt was under the impression that his division had broken through the American line and was now marching through undefended, unoccupied country. The 914th Regiment had just entered Ettelbruck when the 318th Infantry appeared. It was the artillery regiment of the 352nd, bringing up the tail of the division east of the town, which ran afoul of the Americans. Quite obviously the Germans did not expect an attack from this direction. The 914th faced left and deployed hurriedly, using the town as a base, but in the process lost its heavy metal, for the German batteries were in no position to engage in an artillery duel, and fell back to Diekirch.


The reason I quote this is to show that the 3rd Army was not driving through 'battle-hardened veterans' in December 1944. The Volksgrenadier divisions were little more than 'Home Guard' units comprised of men previously classed too old or too unfit for combat service.

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Post #: 88
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/11/2004 3:40:58 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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And more from - http://www.worldwar2history.info/North-Africa/Patton.html

quote:

Under the influence of his wife's family of wealthy Massachusetts industrialists, Patton jettisoned his father's Wilsonian principles, as well as the senior Patton's advice that the "club wit" who strives to dominate conversations was seldom a social success. Prejudice defined Patton's outlook and his conduct. In 1932 he enthusiastically joined then-chief of staff Douglas MacArthur to flush "Communist" Bonus Army marchers from the capital, in the process unceremoniously ejecting from the marchers' encampment the ex-sergeant who had saved his life in France. As chief of army intelligence on Hawaii in 1936, he drew up lists of prominent Japanese-Americans to be seized as "hostages" on the outbreak of war. His anti-Semitism exceeded by a considerable margin the polite golf club standards of America between the wars. General Joseph Stilwell called Patton a "braggart," while George Marshall's wife publicly admonished Patton that his profanity and "outrageous" statements little became a man who aspired to general rank.

Despite his World War II reputation as the U.S. Army's primary practitioner of armored warfare à la Rommel, Patton was in fact an eleventh-hour convert to tanks, preaching right up to the 1939 fall of Poland the virtues of the horse and the benefits of arming cavalrymen with a straight saber of his own design. He owed his promotion to his cultivation of influential generals like Pershing and cavalry chief General John Herr, and politicians, especially Secretary of War Henry Stimson, who personally intervened to place Patton on the major general list in the spring of 1941. Marshall also dropped his reservations about Patton's suitability for command after his vigorous performance at the head of a mechanized corps in the 1941 South Carolina maneuvers. Omar Bradley, who both served under and commanded Patton, described him as "the most fiercely ambitious man and the strangest duck I have ever known." He alternated social grace and personal warmth with a degree of vulgarity and a predisposition to demean and humiliate his subordinates that even GIs found disturbing. His celebrated and controversial speeches to the troops, delivered in a high-pitched, squeaky voice, were practically "comical . . . altogether lacking in command authority," Bradley remembered. But even his detractors had to admit that the tall, slightly balding Patton, with a solid chin, thin lips, and penetrating eyes that stared from beneath white eyebrows, had charisma. He also had an inimitable style. Patton's wardrobe of eccentric uniforms of his own design earned him GI nick-names that included "Flash Gordon," the "Green Hornet."

While Patton counted his fierce devotees, many believed him more respected than loved by the GIs. His tendency to humiliate subordinates and thunder when encountering even minor setbacks caused some to conclude that he was highly neurotic, if not downright insane. The British, to whom Patton became a source of unrelieved amusement as well as frustration, invented unimaginative nicknames for him that included "Chewing Gum" and "Cowboy." "I had heard of him, but I must confess that his swash-buckling personality exceeded my expectation," Alan Brooke noted in January 1943. "I did not form any high opinion of him, nor had I any reason to alter this view at any later date. A dashing, courageous, wild and unbalanced leader, good for operations requiring thrust and push but at a loss in any operation requiring skill and judgment."


I only quote this to prove my point about Patton eliciting strong opinions, even from his contemporaries.

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Post #: 89
RE: Why was Patton so great? - 7/11/2004 6:50:28 AM   
Von Rom


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EricGuitarJames

The fellow you quote above is Douglas Porch.

From the same website you linked to he had this to say about General Patton:

""Kicking butt" was the activity of choice for the autocratic, flamboyant, frequently coarse, pistol-packing Patton. Son of a California lawyer, Patton was a paradoxical mélange of humility and megalomania, geniality and rage, heroics and lunacy."

This is who you use as a reference?

Yes, quite the military historian. He really knows his subject in depth.

And we can clearly see his obvious opinion on Patton. His one-sided view is a great reminder to me to NEVER read his books.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 7/11/2004 5:05:23 AM >


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