Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrcar
Interesting bits.
in 943 30% of the supllies for Darwin came via coastal shipping.
Fuel was all bought by shipping, and taken by rail to the rail/road head inland to supply the convoy's.
8 Trains a day each way, mostly carting troops and food.
It appears that most of the rail shipping was going inland from the Port to the various bases (especially the air bases).
At the start of the war the line was handling 80 tons a day... by 1943 it was handling 500 tons a day (still not a great amount, about the equivelent of 1/2 - 1 real train, rember this line was narrow gauge).
The June 1942 road section from Alice Springs north could ship 330 tons a day using 1300 vehicles (which was more than the railway could handle).
By 1944 the railway was hauling almost 1000 tons northward and 500 tons southward (wounded, soldiers on leave, fuel for the trucks).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark VII

Including seeing the rail/supply issues straightened out, would love to see at least a dot base for Exmouth Gulf. Yes, maybe it is only a jetty, but it was turned into a major sub base. It would be up the the Allied player to put a sub tender or two there and bring a constant supply of AK's and TK's to keep those subs supplied and repaired. It is 600 miles closer than Perth to the action.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

A dot at most. It turned out to be unsuitable and was abandonned. Brutal conditions, which may further highlight the difficult conditions in the Northern Territory.

quote:

What if the Allied player sends 13,000 trucks?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 330 tons per day = 9900 supply per month. Now the question is was 1300 trucks the total possible? What if the Allied player sends 13,000 trucks?

quote:

Original: Mogami
There is a limit to the number of bases. In may be in fact that the connection to Darwin was required for other then geographical accuraccy.

quote:

The distance is such that it would take at least 2-3 days, driving the same trucks in shifts, to make the trip.

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 330 tons per day = 9900 supply per month. Now the question is was 1300 trucks the total possible? What if the Allied player sends 13,000 trucks?

I remind you that this is 1300 trucks arriving PER DAY. The total number of trucks on the whole road between Alice Springs and Darwin would have been much higher. The distance is such that it would take at least 2-3 days, driving the same trucks in shifts, to make the trip.

So lets say at least 4000 trucks on the road at any one time. Perhaps with the average truck running 20 hours a day, with 2 driver shifts. Average speed on the road would be 20-30 miles per hour most likely. This was before people built nice, smooth high speed freeways (well, except in Germany). Then there would have been at least a couple thousand trucks down for maintenance at any given time.

So I would say you are talking about at least 6000 trucks involved in the whole effort, with at least 15000 drivers. And at perhaps 5000 people keeping the trucks gassed up and running, and the road in shape, and another 5000 loading and unloading trucks and warehousing the stuff going onto or off of the trucks at either end. This is not to mention the increased labor force that the rail running to Alice Springs and from the narrow guage terminus to Darwin would be needing. This puts a huge labor burden on what had practically been a wilderness before the war.

If the roadway could take it, you would have to multiply all this by a factor of nearly 10X to run 10X as many trucks.

At that point, the your are talking about a force of perhaps a quarter of a million men, just to keep that road moving. Considering Oz had a population of about 7 million then, that is a STUPENDOUS labor burden on the country. Proportinally, it would be as if the U.S. went to war, and the population of New York City had to be relocated to the Midwest, to drive trucks from Kansas City to Denver.

Even if the trucks could be freed up from other theaters (Brits needed them, Americans needed them, Aussies needed them for everything else they were driving around, the Russians got +- 300,000 trucks from us through lend lease, and they loved them, India needed them, the "Burma Road" needed them, the Free French, Brazilians, Canadians, Kiwis....) the labor demand that you are talking about would so large that the Aussies would have had to demobilize half their combat units, ships and squadrons to supply the manpower.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 330 tons per day = 9900 supply per month. Now the question is was 1300 trucks the total possible? What if the Allied player sends 13,000 trucks?

I remind you that this is 1300 trucks arriving PER DAY. The total number of trucks on the whole road between Alice Springs and Darwin would have been much higher. The distance is such that it would take at least 2-3 days, driving the same trucks in shifts, to make the trip.

So lets say at least 4000 trucks on the road at any one time. Perhaps with the average truck running 20 hours a day, with 2 driver shifts. Average speed on the road would be 20-30 miles per hour most likely. This was before people built nice, smooth high speed freeways (well, except in Germany). Then there would have been at least a couple thousand trucks down for maintenance at any given time.

So I would say you are talking about at least 6000 trucks involved in the whole effort, with at least 15000 drivers. And at perhaps 5000 people keeping the trucks gassed up and running, and the road in shape, and another 5000 loading and unloading trucks and warehousing the stuff going onto or off of the trucks at either end. This is not to mention the increased labor force that the rail running to Alice Springs and from the narrow guage terminus to Darwin would be needing. This puts a huge labor burden on what had practically been a wilderness before the war.

If the roadway could take it, you would have to multiply all this by a factor of nearly 10X to run 10X as many trucks.

At that point, the your are talking about a force of perhaps a quarter of a million men, just to keep that road moving. Considering Oz had a population of about 7 million then, that is a STUPENDOUS labor burden on the country. Proportinally, it would be as if the U.S. went to war, and the population of New York City had to be relocated to the Midwest, to drive trucks from Kansas City to Denver.

Even if the trucks could be freed up from other theaters (Brits needed them, Americans needed them, Aussies needed them for everything else they were driving around, the Russians got +- 300,000 trucks from us through lend lease, and they loved them, India needed them, the "Burma Road" needed them, the Free French, Brazilians, Canadians, Kiwis....) the labor demand that you are talking about would so large that the Aussies would have had to demobilize half their combat units, ships and squadrons to supply the manpower.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrcar

No. 1300 Trucks total to move 330 tons per day. IIRC Most trucks could carry 7 tons.

Cheers

Rob


Rob
What trucks are you refering too. The most common military truck of the Second Sorld
War was the "Duece and a Half"---which you could overload to 3 tons in need. Over the
Roads in question, 2 tons per truck is probably a more realistic average.

(in reply to jrcar)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

Original: Mogami
There is a limit to the number of bases. In may be in fact that the connection to Darwin was required for other then geographical accuraccy.

Two questions:

1. How many "free slots" are there for additional bases in the game?

2. Which Alaskan and Canadian bases are currently in the game?

[ I'm hoping to feed akbrown the info necessary to do a similar map revision for Alaska and Canada. I know how the current rail system looks in game, thanks to Spooky's excellent fansite. But his map doesn't show all the bases. I've got a pretty good idea of how the Alaskan map *should* look to accurately reflect the potential / limitations of the inland ALCAN highway; and Alaska's dependence on sea-supply. I think it can be done without adding too many new bases . . . but I'm still waiting for my CD to arrive , and I don't want to wait however much longer that may be.]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

Original: Mogami
There is a limit to the number of bases. In may be in fact that the connection to Darwin was required for other then geographical accuraccy.

Two questions:

1. How many "free slots" are there for additional bases in the game?

2. Which Alaskan and Canadian bases are currently in the game?

[ I'm hoping to feed akbrown the info necessary to do a similar map revision for Alaska and Canada. I know how the current rail system looks in game, thanks to Spooky's excellent fansite. But his map doesn't show all the bases. I've got a pretty good idea of how the Alaskan map *should* look to accurately reflect the potential / limitations of the inland ALCAN highway; and Alaska's dependence on sea-supply. I think it can be done without adding too many new bases . . . but I'm still waiting for my CD to arrive , and I don't want to wait however much longer that may be.]

I know how important it is to some of us to have a historical as accurate as possible game. My question is (and I really don't know), how important are the Alaska and Canada bases and transportation links. More important let's say that only reflecting a point in the middle of the United States to represent all of the bases and production east of the West Coast, not to mention the lack of aircraft production that is incorporated into the coast's facilities (no I am not lobbying for a change in that concept).

Come on troops, let's get real!! Yes, Australia is very important because of its historical impact and location. But, Alaska and Canada????

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Important enough to build the Alcan highway. Japan invaded Aleutians in June, 42. If Junyo and Ryujo were at Midway, I wonder what would have happened.

Seriously. The allies have so much shipping, giving them any more advantages such as unlimited supply to Alaska frees up yet more. Japan needs all the historical assistance it can get.

quote:

Important enough to build the Alcan highway. Japan invaded Aleutians in June, 42. If Junyo and Ryujo were at Midway, I wonder what would have happened.

Seriously. The allies have so much shipping, giving them any more advantages such as unlimited supply to Alaska frees up yet more. Japan needs all the historical assistance it can get

quote:

Original: Buck Beak
Are you wit me or agin me, unable to tell from your post?

I certainly am not able to discuss the possiblities of a successful establishment of a supportable Japanese presents in Alaska (especially with some one who has over 2800 posts ). I am not saying historically these area were not important, ONLY, they don't appear important to go into that much detail for purposes of the game. Question, And if the Japs had taken significant positions in Alaska, then what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

Original: Buck Beak
Are you wit me or agin me, unable to tell from your post?

I certainly am not able to discuss the possiblities of a successful establishment of a supportable Japanese presents in Alaska (especially with some one who has over 2800 posts ). I am not saying historically these area were not important, ONLY, they don't appear important to go into that much detail for purposes of the game. Question, And if the Japs had taken significant positions in Alaska, then what?

He's wit me.

Alaska is significant enough in WitP that they've put 17 bases in the game. We might as well get them right.

Alaska was important enough historically, that the US had 150,000 soldiers stationed there by 1943 . . . and had to supply them by ship from the West Coast. In the game, the allies don't have to bother to heavily garrison Alaska, or risk any ships, because they can rapidly reinforce the state over a rail route that, historically, did not exist.

If the Japanese had taken significant (Anchorage, Juneau) positions in Alaska? Most likely, the US and Canada would have invaded - by sea - to take them back. Of course, in the game, you could choose to ignore them if you wanted to . . .