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RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 10:46:22 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

I`m far being a Grigsby or Matrix groupie ( well... actually I think Gary IS God )

I thought he was Frag......or was that Mogami......now i'm all confused again

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Post #: 61

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 10:50:53 PM

Black Cat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

To the poster saying they sent a Carrier TF to answer you, well I think that was nothing more than another script that would have sent that TF in that direction no matter what.... I sat there for over two weeks pounding the hell out of everything they sent my way with two CA's four CL's and four DD's. Their air eventually force a retreat, but no before I blew FOUR AK TF's right out of the water first....all headed to the same place, non were escorted.....i.e. the Death Spiral bug.

errr..that was me. Yes it was probably scripted for the AI CV TF to come SE of Singapore , they do this several times in late `41 - early `42 but then move down and around Borneo to disrupt shipping, as the CVL TF comes NE of Borneo and then moves up and past Singapore.

However this time it just sat off Singapore and attacked my SC TF`s who were attacking their transports.

As I said in my other post, this is IMO Hex/time specific, if it wasn`t so busy the Indio China based Betty`s and Nells would have put your SC TF on the bottom on turn 2.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 62

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 10:53:47 PM

The Gnome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

They can't afford me.

LOL.....so you say.

My money's on GG being Frag... or Frag being GG...

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 63

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 10:54:09 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I'll say it again: in my game (on the wimpy "historical" setting), the AI seems to have recognized that its suicide transports needed air cover, and for three turns running now it's provided long range CAP. I've lost 55 planes in the past two days.

I'm not saying the suicide-transport thing isn't a problem. I hope the devs will address it. But the AI's response in my game is quite encouraging to me.

Well, I have not seen any reactive measures at all from the AI. It is playing VERY well and VERY aggresive, having taken Singapore by 1/19/42 in spite of my very best efforst to stop it (short of being "gamey"). However, I did take some time out to to see what it would do if I parked a robust Surface Combat unit in the hex two hexes up on the left from Singapore. It tried to bomb it, but I stuck fast. Sank FOUR Jap TF's made up of either 3 or 4 AK's. Stopped, loaded up the save file with Allied AI after that, and low and behold, another 4AK TF headed to same damned position! No KB in sight.... Gnomes Death Spiral bug for sure. Didn't carry it out any further, though to see how long it would keep that up. It eventually did enough damage bombing me that I had to get out after losing half my TF.

But there have been enough reports of this type of thing so far, including Frag's own Mandalay test, that indicates this is a REAL problem. The AI does not seem to be very capable of working itself out of the Death Spiral if you can find a way to get it into one...

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 64

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 10:56:16 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

My money's on GG being Frag... or Frag being GG...

To think that my idol whose wargames so entertained me in my youth might be an uncoth, cowardly drinker of stale canadian beer......

the horror.......

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Post #: 65

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 10:56:50 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

They can't afford me.

LOL.....so you say.

No gaming company can. I tried to get on at Legend Entertainment about four years ago. I wanted to go there and they wanted me as a senior project manager. We never got within 40K on comp, though.... And yes, I KNOW what Matrix pays.....

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Post #: 66

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 10:59:59 PM

Nikademus

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I have the same problem with NASA. I keep telling them that its long since past that they retired the Space Shuttle program and designed a next generation vehicle but obviously the engineers there are piss poor at coming up with new ideas.

They asked me if i could do better but alas....they cant afford me either.

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Post #: 67

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:00:38 PM

The Gnome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

My money's on GG being Frag... or Frag being GG...

To think that my idol whose wargames so entertained me in my youth might be an uncoth, cowardly drinker of stale canadian beer......

the horror.......

Could be why Dr. Jekyl err Dr. Grigsby is such a recluse - he doesn't want the world to see Mr. Frag.... lol :D

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Post #: 68

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:02:19 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

[
Could be why Dr. Jekyl err Dr. Grigsby is such a recluse - he doesn't want the world to see Mr. Frag.... lol :D

Well at least we now know what Frag looks like......at least assuming one has seen "The League of Extraordinary Gentleman"

Poor Gary

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Post #: 69

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:08:07 PM

Arnir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I have the same problem with NASA. I keep telling them that its long since past that they retired the Space Shuttle program and designed a next generation vehicle but obviously the engineers there are piss poor at coming up with new ideas.

They asked me if i could do better but alas....they cant afford me either.

Okay, I really liked this one.

< Message edited by Arnir -- 7/13/2004 3:08:22 PM >

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Post #: 70

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:12:22 PM

Arnir

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Just out of curiosity, if the "really really good AI programmers" are way beyond what Matrix can afford, how much would WitP cost if Matrix did dish out those salaries?

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Post #: 71

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:14:39 PM

Mr.Frag

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Most of our AI guys make 200+K US a year and are kept happy at all costs so they don't get any ideas about leaving.

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Post #: 72

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:16:09 PM

The Gnome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Most of our AI guys make 200+K US a year and are kept happy at all costs so they don't get any ideas about leaving.

Time to stop doing client-server verticals! I need to start coding AI lol

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Post #: 73

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:20:11 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Most of our AI guys make 200+K US a year and are kept happy at all costs so they don't get any ideas about leaving.

Well, all our career paths go down certain roads at some point. I eventually went down the vertical market business software road and never pursued the R&D type development track. And then we all tend to get "locked in" to what we are doing to a degree. But AI development, in particular as it applies to computer games, has been something I always wanted to dig into in a big sort of way. But I have to stay my course at least until my kids are out of school.... Doing things like working on games is something for when money is no longer a serious issue in my life. That day is coming, but not here yet.

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Post #: 74

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:25:40 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Just out of curiosity, if the "really really good AI programmers" are way beyond what Matrix can afford, how much would WitP cost if Matrix did dish out those salaries?

It's not that Matrix needs world class R&D type Nueral Net developers, but it seems like they are ready to try some new basic ideas inside their own environment that may open up some new avenues. I understand they are working on a new project that has quite a few "revolutionary" development techniques involved. But then, I don't know, to some game programmers I have met in the past, the idea of using the disk for something besides a place to store saved games, bitmaps and sound files, was "revolutionary"....

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Post #: 75

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:37:19 PM

Arnir

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The reason I ask, of course, is that AI is very important to me as a solitare gamer. However, if the game carried a, say, $200 price tag, I wouldn't buy it and neither would many others. (Despite comments by many people on the board who seem to have lost perspective). The cost benefits analysis has to be performed.

Cost of the game: $200
Cost of system upgrade: $800
Being able to play a wonderful AI opponent that will challenge you: Who knows? Can't afford it.

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Post #: 76

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:49:15 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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Yea, the economics are always the final say. The gaming industry is pathetically under-capitalized compared to companies Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, etc... It is also an EXTREMELY fragmented business. And there is no large non-profit consortium either to do R&D. No one company has enough resources to dump into long term research that may or may not pay off 5-7-10 years down the road. It is very much a "what do I have to do today to open the doors tomorrow" type thing. Going to largely stick with what already works. It took massive investment from big companies like Microsoft and others to just get game developers to finally abandon DOS and adopt DirectX and OpenGL based games. And I see no rush at all for game developers to rush into Object Oriented design either, even though their mainstream business counterparts did that 10-15 years ago.

AI research is the realm of the big software companies and Universities, not a game company or even a group of game companies. Funny thing is, the major advancements in the industry always seem to some from some unknown, newbie that comes up with something that works and then everybody jumps onboard, until the next big "thing" hits. Like the OpenGL based Unreal engine many years ago...

Kind of surprised game development hasn't hit OpenSource in a big way yet? I have seen some efforts like the Quake II clone and such, but not much in a meaningful way. Can't think of one big SourceForge project that is game related these days....

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 7/13/2004 9:49:26 PM >

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Post #: 77

RE: AI craziness - 7/13/2004 11:57:29 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

Kind of surprised game development hasn't hit OpenSource in a big way yet? I have seen some efforts like the Quake II clone and such, but not much in a meaningful way. Can't think of one big SourceForge project that is game related these days....

Never happen, too little profit as is. Opening up one's source would kill the industry. I'm sure we have all seen enough rip off titles come out over the years to see that people just go all out and steal entire concepts from other developers forget about giving out the entire code base.

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Post #: 78

RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 12:14:49 AM

Grotius

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Am I alone in finding that the AI is giving me a good, fun game? It's January 1, 1942, and the AI Japan (on the easiest difficulty setting) has taken most of the Phillipines, has fought to the outskirts of Rangoon, has taken most of Malaya, whacked me at Pearl and got away scot-free, and is probably doing a better job with logistics than I am. The only error it's made -- sending its unescorted transports around Singapore -- it has since corrected, by (1) adding Long Range CAP, and (2) sending KB to Singapore. So in a month of gameplay, it's made one mistake and then corrected it. More than I can say.

Sure, the AI will need fixes. The transport problem is only one example. But I don't see evidence that it has to be redesigned from the ground up. It's already quite capable of giving me a good game, and if I increase the difficulty level, I'll have a nice challenge on my hands. I'm quite content fighting an AI that has advantages. I do it in "Civ 3" all the time, and it makes it all the more sweet when I win -- which I often don't.

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 12:59:13 AM

Black Cat

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Not at all, the AI in WITP is as good as any and better then most. It`s giving me a hell of a tough fight. It`s now supporting it`s Troop transports with LBA and CA`s as it advances, and unsupported Transport TF`s will run if I move a SC TF toward them.

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 1:17:46 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Kind of surprised game development hasn't hit OpenSource in a big way yet? I have seen some efforts like the Quake II clone and such, but not much in a meaningful way. Can't think of one big SourceForge project that is game related these days....

Never happen, too little profit as is. Opening up one's source would kill the industry. I'm sure we have all seen enough rip off titles come out over the years to see that people just go all out and steal entire concepts from other developers forget about giving out the entire code base.

OpenSource is not about profit. In fact, it is quite anti-profit, actually. The Wolfpack project, the last open source game I can remember, was a small collection of community developers that developed a client-server architecture turn based wargame, actually. I downloaded the server code, but never really got into it....fell into the wxWindows (now wxWidgets) project, instead....

And the focus in an OpenSource gaming project would not likely be end-user games, anyway, but rather game engine API's and development tools so that retail companies could then use those for RAD game developement....

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 7/13/2004 11:20:12 PM >

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 1:23:42 AM

The Gnome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Am I alone in finding that the AI is giving me a good, fun game? It's January 1, 1942, and the AI Japan (on the easiest difficulty setting) has taken most of the Phillipines, has fought to the outskirts of Rangoon, has taken most of Malaya, whacked me at Pearl and got away scot-free, and is probably doing a better job with logistics than I am. The only error it's made -- sending its unescorted transports around Singapore -- it has since corrected, by (1) adding Long Range CAP, and (2) sending KB to Singapore. So in a month of gameplay, it's made one mistake and then corrected it. More than I can say.

Sure, the AI will need fixes. The transport problem is only one example. But I don't see evidence that it has to be redesigned from the ground up. It's already quite capable of giving me a good game, and if I increase the difficulty level, I'll have a nice challenge on my hands. I'm quite content fighting an AI that has advantages. I do it in "Civ 3" all the time, and it makes it all the more sweet when I win -- which I often don't.

I feel the same way, I'm having a terrific time playing the AI. What I'm worried about is, this is the same feeling I had while playing UV until the bottom feel out and the AI went into the death spiral when I slaughtered his entire BB and CA force along with 90% of his merchants by late '42. I don't know that it will here in WiTP, as I've just seen the bug reports and the one or two small anamolies in my game.

I'm just scared of putting the time into playing the game and find the AI has had enough and suicides. I hope it can at least keep it together until mid to late 44.

As long as the AI cheating is in no way visible to me I have no problem with a certain amount of it. The second I see the cheating and know there is no way for that to happen my immersion in the game ends.

I look at AI cheats like abstracting combats, as long as the abstraction causes believable results I'm ok with it.

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 82

RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 1:24:05 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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Yes, it is giving me one hell of a tough fight. But it is very "linear", show virtually NO inclination to adapt to my situation. I've played the first three-four weeks six times now, with various levels of reenforcement, but it basically does almost the exact same thing each time, regardless of the force it encounters. The variablity is in the natural randomness one gets for random number generation and the different precise timeline the AI gets put on based on the human moves. I have yet to see it attempt a single flanking manuever around a powerful defensive position, for instance. It just bludgeons the position until it beats you down.....which it obviously knows it can at this stage of the game.

BTW, playing the "hard" setting right above "historical".

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 1:55:12 AM

John B

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In general I agree that in the first months of the full campaign game the AI (as the Japanese) is giving me one heck of a good fight, (on historical setting)and is coming out on top in a lot of cases. Its maybe a little on the cautious side, a steady step by step consolidation of advances rather than daring moves. I haven't checked in detail, but its probably slightly behind historical schedule overall, though not by much. It hasn't committed any major blunders that I've spotted as yet, apart maybe from hitting Soerbaja's strong CD with a surface task force instead of softening them up with airpower, and getting a bit of a battering as a result.

Generally AIs seem better at handling the defence, so I'm hopeful it will cope at least equally well when the time comes for my counter-offensives.

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 3:24:36 AM

Stavka_lite

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This has been a very informative thread and I have learned a great deal from it so thanks to all of the posters. It is good (

to know that other people have the same issue and that there are ways around it. The Death Spiral or the Naval marshalling ' undocumented design features don't make this game unplayable for me because I use it as a "sparring partner" to learn how to do things and how not to do things. I originally posted because I was amazed at this bug. I do understand the complexities of AI design and have no desire to attempt it.

I have no desire to pay hundreds of dollars for a blue sky game AI that Zoomie wants, I always have shifted to PBEM once I know the rules and how to use the interface. No AI short of the Blue series can handle a game like this with all of the variables and I am happy with this game and its attendant AI.

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 4:51:16 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stavka_lite

This has been a very informative thread and I have learned a great deal from it so thanks to all of the posters. It is good ( to know that other people have the same issue and that there are ways around it. The Death Spiral or the Naval marshalling ' undocumented design features don't make this game unplayable for me because I use it as a "sparring partner" to learn how to do things and how not to do things. I originally posted because I was amazed at this bug. I do understand the complexities of AI design and have no desire to attempt it.

I have no desire to pay hundreds of dollars for a blue sky game AI that Zoomie wants, I always have shifted to PBEM once I know the rules and how to use the interface. No AI short of the Blue series can handle a game like this with all of the variables and I am happy with this game and its attendant AI.

First off, I don't want a $300 "Deep Blue" game, either. What I would love to see would be a good object oriented game engine API coupled with some powerful disk based data handling tools, and then use those tools to create some games with some more enhanced AI features, leaving the presentation layer to professionals, skilled in that area. Problem today, is there are NO decent API's or OpenSource projects out there at all. The few "game design kits" are totally lame, building block style, scripting tools for non-programmers to create simple minded arcade games.

Just like before the C++ ISO standard came along complete with the STL, programmers had things like Rogue Wave, to help the low level stuff. We had MFC, wxWindows, IOCL, and Fox for GUI stuff. No need to code your own container classes or dialog boxes, frame apps, etc, because someone else with a lot more skill, money and time did it for you! The lack of robust toolkits leads far too many game developers to have to spend far too much time and resources on reinventing wheel (like UV and WiTP rolling their own UI stuff) instead of investing more heavily in game balance, AI and such.... In otherwords, far too much time is spent writing low-level, infrastructure code, and too little writing actual application level code. Thus a big part of the reason we see the general poor state of the AI in games, overall.

The AI in this game is actually pretty good, as wargame AI's go. But it is obvious it has a few remaining, significant problems left that keep it from being a true "advancement of the art", so to speak. As Gnome states, it has the feel of being about 90% there. I can get around that last 10% through personal "house rules", but I wish I didn't have to. Especially since that last 10%, conceptually, should not be that difficult to overcome.

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 5:01:35 AM

Mr.Frag

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Zoomie ... if you work in the real world, you know full well that 90% of the work is simple and that last 10% costs millions of dollars. Each percentage point past 90% doubles the cost of development.

As far as OOP and all the Java crap out these days, I can tell you from the school of hard knocks that you *always* run into failures in the *other* guys libraries and end up having to toss them and rewrite the code yourself.

Games run in a very fixed limited environment. You can't throw hardware at the problem to make it go away. This is the real world, where you have a tough time convincing people they need a monitor that is better then 800x600 not the fantasy world of business.

Microsoft follows your pigware approach and their code just keeps on growing endlessly. Take a look at the size of Office 2002 ... God, anyone got another hard drive? I installed Office and ran out of space.

400 Gigs just isn't enough anymore!

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RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 5:50:55 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Zoomie ... if you work in the real world, you know full well that 90% of the work is simple and that last 10% costs millions of dollars. Each percentage point past 90% doubles the cost of development.

As far as OOP and all the Java crap out these days, I can tell you from the school of hard knocks that you *always* run into failures in the *other* guys libraries and end up having to toss them and rewrite the code yourself.

Games run in a very fixed limited environment. You can't throw hardware at the problem to make it go away. This is the real world, where you have a tough time convincing people they need a monitor that is better then 800x600 not the fantasy world of business.

Microsoft follows your pigware approach and their code just keeps on growing endlessly. Take a look at the size of Office 2002 ... God, anyone got another hard drive? I installed Office and ran out of space.

400 Gigs just isn't enough anymore!

I don't know why you are nothing but a walking bag of excuses? I have used thrid party OOP libraries and Java for enterprise level systems that have run nonStop 24x7, mission critical systems without a single SECOND of down time, some have been running for over seven years now! Yea, they have bugs, but in the OOP world you can derive classes and overload functions at will to bypass them when you find them. The world is FULL of robust, rock solid, very mature toolkits.

Next, if there is a class of computer users that live on the high range of the computing scale, it is game players. You want to see obsolete hardware, don't look at gamers, look at your own office. You are 180 off on that mark, Fraggo. If there is a class of user in the world today that does NOTHING BUT throw hardware at a problem, it is the gaming community. Who the hell do you think drives the graphics hardware market? It damned sure as HELL is NOT the CAD/CAM users out there, it is the CONSUMER market, and in particular, the GAME PLAYING consumer market. And turnbased wargames are, by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE, the LEAST demanding games on hardware there is.

And I don't propose ANYTHING like what MS does in their own shops. And the WitP team is one to talk. A turn base wargame that takes 1.1GB of disk space and eats 200MB of ram to run???? For what? Oh yea.......direct X.....

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 88

RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 7:45:10 AM

Grotius

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I'm glad to hear others are also getting slapped around by the IJN AI in the opening months. If it can handle the offensive phase of the war, the first 9 months or so, that's the hard part! Then it gets to go over onto the defensive, which it should be better at. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. In the meantime, I hope Matrix can start working on the AI problems that are being reported.

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Post #: 89

RE: AI craziness - 7/14/2004 7:55:02 AM

ZOOMIE1980

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Well inspite of some potentially harmful "bugs", the AI is pretty much b!tch-slapping me and using me like a bar of soap. 1/24/42 and I've lost Singapore, they're invading Sumatra and Palembang, besieging Rangoon, forcing my troops in Borneo to the jungles, securing the north shore of PNG is falling like a house of cards, starting to run down the Solomons, have the Gilberts, have me penned up in the PI......

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 90