Found what I was looking for Gentlemen

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Found what I was looking for Gentlemen

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> Found what I was looking for Gentlemen

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Found what I was looking for Gentlemen - 7/16/2004 11:45:31 PM

Dirtdog20

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Re: French planing to attack into Belgum

Source is Hew Strachan "The First World War Vol I" Oxford University Press

P187 "... Michel's plan became associated with the defensive (it actually spoke of French attacks both in Belgum and Lorraine)..."

So the planning that I spoke of in the other thread was not an official war plan but one that was proposed that ran against the official doctorine of regaining the lost providences.

Michel was General Victor Michel who was vice-president of the Conseil Superieur de Guerre in 1910-11. He was more or less run out of the Army for his right ideas about the German sweep. His idea was to get into Belgum before the Germans and outflank the wing. Which shows that even in 1910 there was still some disbelief that the use of the reserves would even be attempted. Look on P 185 for a little more info on this.

< Message edited by Dirtdog20 -- 7/18/2004 12:51:24 PM >

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RE: Found what I was looking for Gentlemen - 7/25/2004 1:06:22 AM

Dirtdog20

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Even after the start of the war the general assumption was that the reservists that were recalled would be garrison troops. The French thought very poorly of thier reseves and thought that the German reservists would be of a simular caliber. When the French discovered that the Germans were not only using the reservists in active operations but were using them in the lead of the attack they were completely flabergasted.
The assumption up to this point counting bodies on active duty and expected frontages would place the flank of the German wing in Belgum hanging wide open. Michel's plan was to form a huge army and poise it to move into Belgum ahead of the German sweep and roll up the German line from that flank. The groups of Corps in front of the "Lost Providences" would hold the Germans there allowing the huge flanking movent to take effect. This of course was sacrilige to the official policy, and spirit of the nation, regarding the "Lost Providences". Adding to the continuing internal fighting over the Dreyfus case, which Michel had managed to avoid, also left him with out friends on both sides and hence his resignation from the Army.
Michel had an idea that the Germans were going to invade France through Belgum by the use of truck transported troops during the yearly wargames. Michel deduced that the Belgian plains were the only place that truck borne infantry could be used effectively, hence his submision of the plan to invade Belgum in an attempt to quote General N.B. Forrest "get there first with the most"

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RE: Found what I was looking for Gentlemen - 7/30/2004 5:41:27 PM

SirRodneyOfGout

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Any indication if Michel factored the British, or for that matter the Belgians, into the equation? Apparently both the German and the French General Staffs seemed to plan as though a Franco-German war would occur in a political vacum, and treat other sovereign nations simply as playing fields for flanking manuevers.

How the Brits would have reacted in a situation where France AND Germany turned Belgium into the major battlefield is anyones guess. Undoubtedly would have given Cabinet, and Parliament, something to debate. And would the Belgian army have taken a defensive posture and attempted to repel incursions from either side? A 3-way battle for Belgium? Yikes!

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RE: Found what I was looking for Gentlemen - 7/30/2004 8:48:37 PM

Dirtdog20

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From reading Strachan's book I get the impression that Michel was pretty much in a vacumn. From some other sources I have read it is possible that Belgum would have told both sides to stuff it and called on England to help. The King of Belgum was a bit miffed with Willhelm for basicly telling him, at around this same time, that Belgum needed to be deciding whose side they would be on. On the other hand France wasn't that far removed from being the bully of Europe so to say that a French invasion of Belgum preemptivly wouldnt have resulted in a Belgian / Anglo/ Germanic alliance isnt entirely out of the realm of possabilities. Really the nation on the sharpest end of the stick here is England. The Germans are still no angels in this scenario and would have made it extremley difficult on the English considering the naval redeployments and staff talks that had occoured.
IMO with the 1914 scenario have England start neutral and activate as soon as Belgum is invaded. Also activate if the German fleet takes any action against French targets along the coast, or a % chance of activation if the German fleet is in the North Sea.

Did I miss anything obvious?

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RE: Found what I was looking for Gentlemen - 9/25/2004 2:41:35 AM

Dirtdog20

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While re-reading Sir John Keegans one volume work "The First World War" he also talks about the French planning to move into Belgum to fight the Germans there. He quicky discusses Michel and his plans and offers the idea of a huge meeting engagement in Belgum between the strong wing of the Germans and the advancing French. He states that the outcome is of course unknown but if this plan had been still in force the result couldnt be worse than the outcome of the 1914 events. This is discussed on P. 38 while if you start on 34-35 and read through 60 you get the sense that the generals drove the war and the politicians were afraid to put on the brakes because of the decloration that every day lost not mobilizing cost you 25 miles of territory.

Keegan also takes the British goverment to task for trying to play both sides. He also places some of the blame for the war on them because they hesitated to declare what they would do until Belgum was attacked leading King Willhelm to order Moltke the younger to cancel the attack on Belgum at one point hoping that the British would not join the war as long as Belgum was not attacked. See the "what if" thread for that discussion.

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