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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Do aircraft factories appear later automatically

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Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 10:14:31 AM

brisd

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Do aircraft factories appear automatically, as in PacWar when P-51 or Ki-84 is due to arrive? In other words, many aircraft that don't appear for years are available to research for Japan. If you don't switch factory production or allow automatic upgrade, you can never get those aircraft factories? Say you decide to take both Nate factories and convert them to research aircraft other than the Oscar IIb, the normal upgrade. Will a factory appear in 1/43 for the Oscar IIb anyways? Just trying to figure out the production and research for Japan.

Also, why does the Lily upgrade to the Randy, a fighter bomber??? Thanks!

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 10:47:55 AM

Drongo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd

Do aircraft factories appear automatically, as in PacWar when P-51 or Ki-84 is due to arrive? In other words, many aircraft that don't appear for years are available to research for Japan. If you don't switch factory production or allow automatic upgrade, you can never get those aircraft factories? Say you decide to take both Nate factories and convert them to research aircraft other than the Oscar IIb, the normal upgrade. Will a factory appear in 1/43 for the Oscar IIb anyways? Just trying to figure out the production and research for Japan.

Last time I tested it, aircraft were becoming available even without R&D being allocated. Once an aircraft becomes available to be built, aircraft assemblies producing an aircraft type that upgrades to the new type will begin to switch their production over to it.

So in your example, the factories would be producing Nates till 1/43 and then should switch over to the Ki-43-II.

quote:

Also, why does the Lily upgrade to the Randy, a fighter bomber??? Thanks!

From memory, many of the Ki-48 units at least partially re-equipped with the Ki-45 (a fighter bomber) during the war. The Ki-45 was intended to be replaced by the Ki-102 (amongst others). The production of the Ki-48 ended in late '44 without any similar new aircraft designs planned for production. The Ki-102 was in production by that point, so it seems a reasonable decision given what aircraft types are available in the game.

< Message edited by Drongo -- 7/18/2004 8:49:10 AM >

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 4:39:44 PM

Caltone

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While I haven't played that far in a game yet, that's also the way I understand it. The R&D you do yourself is for the purpose of affecting the planned arrival date. Accoring to the manual and some threads it's by adding '100 points' to a development type pool.

There are other threads, and it appears confirmed, that you can only do so much with this. IOW, portions of this are deliberately left vague and there are safeguards to prevent huge improvements in arrival dates. Good design decisions in my book.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 7:26:24 PM

brisd

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Thanks guys for the input.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 8:23:48 PM

Drongo

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I just realised I misread your Nate example.

Slight change to what I posted.

If you are not researching the Ki-43-II, it will still become available for production 1/43.

However:

Since you had no Nate factories that would have automatically upgraded to the Ki-43-II and because you had no factories already allocated to the Ki-43-II (to do R&D), there will be nothing producing the Ki-43-II at the time it becomes available.

Since factories will not magically appear in WitP, to produce the Ki-43-II in this case you will have no choice but to manually convert over something that is producing an entirely different a/c type.

Cheers.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 10:37:50 PM

brisd

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That's what I thought and just wanted to clarify. So even if you have no factories upgrading to that type, it will still be available for assembly on its availability date if you switch to that aircraft. From what I can see, most Nates upgrade to Oscar IIb, not the Oscar available at start of war. Will those Nate factories upgrade to Oscar IIb (researching) in Jan 42 or will they keep manufacturing Nates to add to the 700+ in the pool during all of 42 before Oscar IIb shows up in Jan 43?

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 10:50:48 PM

Mr.Frag

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Correct - Aircraft have a fixed date that they become available.

R&D (factories producing that unavailable aircraft) move that date sooner.

Doing nothing means you will get them at that date not sooner.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/18/2004 11:06:44 PM

brisd

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Thanks for help. And the Nate factory upgrade path? Anyone played to Jan 42 and see if they upgrade or when they do if you do nothing?

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 3:44:29 AM

Drongo

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The Nate factories will not attempt to automatically upgrade to the Ki-43-IIa until after its availability date has been reached. Any change over before that date would have to be made manually by the player.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 6:06:54 AM

brisd

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Ok, thanks for that info. I am amazed that this plane was in production thru Dec 42 but I just checked my reference and it was. No way that it will in my games!

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 1:57:41 PM

Captain Cruft

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd

Ok, thanks for that info. I am amazed that this plane was in production thru Dec 42 but I just checked my reference and it was. No way that it will in my games!

The Nate kicks butt in China ...

Thanks for the clarification of how auto-upgrades work Drongo.

I'm actually shutting off a lot of Japanese aircraft production in my campaign (Jan 42). The idea being to save the HI points for when you have some better aircraft to produce. Also it's not planes but pilots that's the real problem.

As far as R&D goes, I'm currently a bit ambivalent. It's very expensive for what it does. If there were a truly decisive aircraft available it might be worth it. The other thing to remember is that even if you bring forward production of a particular type the actual squadrons are still only going to turn up at the same pre-destined time.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 7:40:44 PM

brisd

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The majority of the IJA's fighters are Nates and there are 700+ in the pool so there are plenty left for China if I switch production

. You are correct about the squadrons not showing up till historical and that is a shame, not being able to invest in moving them up as well. But say you wanted to use a late war aircraft in your fighter squadrons? From my understanding of how the game works, you would have to research and equip every plane in its upgrade path in order to equip any squadrons with them, correct? That is one thing I don't care for so far in the system, but I suppose it's more realistic as you need to 'discover' the tech so to speak prior to being able to use it.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 8:33:03 PM

Drongo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd
From my understanding of how the game works, you would have to research and equip every plane in its upgrade path in order to equip any squadrons with them, correct? That is one thing I don't care for so far in the system, but I suppose it's more realistic as you need to 'discover' the tech so to speak prior to being able to use it.

I haven't tested specifically for this but on my understanding, you don't have to always research every a/c on the upgrade path.

Unconfirmed but:

Assuming you don't care for the A6M8 but get excited by the thought of an A7M six months earlier than historical.

If you did not research the A6M8 but instead invested in the A7M to the point that you got it 6 months early (fat chance according to some

), then any air units equipped with any of the a/c in the upgrade path (A6M2, A6M3, A6M5) would attempt to upgrade to the A7M as soon as sufficient numbers were produced. They would not require the A6M8 at all.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 8:44:46 PM

brisd

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That is good news to me if true.

Guess I could load up the 44 campaign game and see if I could create that situation. Thanks all for your inputs.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 8:49:48 PM

HawaiiFive-O

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

If you did not research the A6M8 but instead invested in the A7M to the point that you got it 6 months early (fat chance according to some )

Is there official 'word' on this feature of the game? It'd be a shame to invest a lot of time and effort, expending precious resources, just to find out you are denied by a hidden, unexplained hardcoding in the game EXE.

Not complaining, but for planning purposes this sort of hidden 'gotcha' can be quite frustrating. At what point can you start to research advanced aircraft and hope to actually make a difference?

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 9:03:36 PM

Caltone

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I'm at work and can't check all of this till later but:

1. I don't think you can bring something forward 6 months. There's a thread where one of the testers (maybe Frag) said that Gary had put in code to prevent this. The how much and so forth are purposely left vague by Gary. So maybe its 6 months maybe its only 3 months. There's no feedback in game to see what impact you're having or how many points you've accumulated. Manual states you need 100 points to impact arrival by 1 month. I suspect this will always be a do at your own risk kind of thing when you start sinking massive R&D into a project.

2. If you have squadrons of an aircraft in the reinforcement pipeline, you must manufacture that plane in order to fill out the squadrons. The example was made of the A6M3. Most agree this plane was not as good as the A6M2 and wanted to put any research they had in the A6M3 into A6M2 production or A6M5 research. This all sounds good but there are several squadrons of A6M3's comming in '42 and with no produciton, you will have no planes to fill them out. Not really an option for Japan as those squadrons will need to fly.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 9:17:23 PM

Sonny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

I'm at work and can't check all of this till later but:

1. I don't think you can bring something forward 6 months. There's a thread where one of the testers (maybe Frag) said that Gary had put in code to prevent this. The how much and so forth are purposely left vague by Gary. So maybe its 6 months maybe its only 3 months. There's no feedback in game to see what impact you're having or how many points you've accumulated. Manual states you need 100 points to impact arrival by 1 month. I suspect this will always be a do at your own risk kind of thing when you start sinking massive R&D into a project.

2. If you have squadrons of an aircraft in the reinforcement pipeline, you must manufacture that plane in order to fill out the squadrons. The example was made of the A6M3. Most agree this plane was not as good as the A6M2 and wanted to put any research they had in the A6M3 into A6M2 production or A6M5 research. This all sounds good but there are several squadrons of A6M3's comming in '42 and with no produciton, you will have no planes to fill them out. Not really an option for Japan as those squadrons will need to fly.

If that is really the case then all you would need to do would be to produce a squadron or three worth of A6M3s, then up grade the A6M2s to 3s, then upgrade the 3s to 7s thus putting the 3s back in the pool to upgrade the next squadreon of 2s, etc. Cumbersome but may be a way to skip the 3s.

Oops, I should not hav ementioned that since you are the Japanese in our game!

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/19/2004 9:17:34 PM

HawaiiFive-O

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

1. I don't think you can bring something forward 6 months. There's a thread where one of the testers (maybe Frag) said that Gary had put in code to prevent this. The how much and so forth are purposely left vague by Gary. So maybe its 6 months maybe its only 3 months. There's no feedback in game to see what impact you're having or how many points you've accumulated. Manual states you need 100 points to impact arrival by 1 month. I suspect this will always be a do at your own risk kind of thing when you start sinking massive R&D into a project.

About what I expected. The 'how much and so forth are purposely left vague by Gary' part is what I have misgivings about. But if that's the way it works, that's the way it works.

There will be a little feedback, as the arrival date should slide up if you are having an effect. I'll have to setup a test scenario and test things out.

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/20/2004 8:13:36 AM

Drongo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone
1. I don't think you can bring something forward 6 months. There's a thread where one of the testers (maybe Frag) said that Gary had put in code to prevent this. The how much and so forth are purposely left vague by Gary. So maybe its 6 months maybe its only 3 months. There's no feedback in game to see what impact you're having or how many points you've accumulated. Manual states you need 100 points to impact arrival by 1 month. I suspect this will always be a do at your own risk kind of thing when you start sinking massive R&D into a project.

I'm not going to state exactly what the designers said on this issue during testing (as I can't be sure I saw every comment) but my understanding of I did read was:-

The real obstacle to getting late war aircraft very early by starting research early is the rate at which the aircraft assembly will repair once converted. A '45 aircraft will have its assembly repaired extremely slowly if you convert in '42. Example - 100 damaged A7M assembly in 1/42 may only have become 80 damaged and 20 repaired by 1/43.

However once that industry starts coming on line, each point should contribute to the "speeding up" of availability exactly the same as any other aircraft R&D. Example - the 20 A7M assemblies at 1/43 will be influencing the A7Ms availability date as much as 20 A6M5 assemblies in 1/43 will influence its own availability date.

My beta testing appeared to back this up but the best thing for players to do is try it out themselves.

quote:

2. If you have squadrons of an aircraft in the reinforcement pipeline, you must manufacture that plane in order to fill out the squadrons. The example was made of the A6M3. Most agree this plane was not as good as the A6M2 and wanted to put any research they had in the A6M3 into A6M2 production or A6M5 research. This all sounds good but there are several squadrons of A6M3's comming in '42 and with no produciton, you will have no planes to fill them out. Not really an option for Japan as those squadrons will need to fly.

You are correct in that any R&D decisions have to always take into account what is coming as reinforcements and when.

A Japanese player does need to produce the A6M3 if he wants his air reinforcements equipped with that type to arrive on time in the early part of the war.

However, one aspect to keep in mind on this is that air reinforcements have been given the ability to search up their upgrade path on the turn they are due to arrive.

If insufficient a/c exist in the pool of the type that the reinforcement is supposed to have but a newer a/c type from the upgrade path is available and in sufficient numbers in the pool, then the reinforcement will attempt to arrive on map with this type.

Not really that useful in the A6M3's situation but it does mean you do not always have to produce every a/c type listed in your reinforcement schedule.

< Message edited by Drongo -- 7/20/2004 6:21:16 AM >

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RE: Do aircraft factories appear later automatically - 7/20/2004 8:28:47 AM

Caltone

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Some excellent points so far. I agree Drongo the A6M3's are kinda unique in that they will come early at a time when you will need the planes in the pool. Good point on others also, there a few that would just require a few planes in the pool or could be skipped altogether until you could produce the upgrade in numbers.

Sonny is practicing some misdeception on me, no doubt to thwart my plans

In his eyes I would have hapless groups of A6M3 pilots standing aroound the airstrips waiting for their turn to use the planes.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Do aircraft factories appear later automatically

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