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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome.

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A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 10:43:50 PM

Montrose

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Davao, South Philippines, December 14th 1941. Dawn.

Captain Teraoka was not happy. As he stood on the bridge of the Kiko Maru and surveyed the ongoing scenes of chaos, he made yet another mental curse against the arrogant fools who had put him in charge of this mission. With the war barely one week old, he had been placed in command of fifteen rag-tag transports and ordered to land the 56th Infantry Brigade in the bay of Davao. They would round up the slovenly American reserve troops on their base with no trouble, as had already been seen so often before.

Teraoka remembered well the assurances he had received during his briefing. The American air forces were destroyed on their airfields, their ships scattered or sunk, their troops third rate. He had been given one lowly minesweeper as an escort to the unloading point, and one minelayer would deploy a defensive minefield on the very small chance of some appearance from any stray minor enemy ships which might just have escaped from the all conquering IJN.

Since making landfall yesterday afternoon things had started to go wrong immediately. Naval guns had been positioned overlooking the bay, and for what now seemed like eternity his slow transports had been weaving to the best of their ability to avoid incoming shells. It hadn't worked, four of his transports had been burning for some time now, although they were still just about underway. Teraoka had been even more suprised when a handful of American P-35 fighters had appeared and had actually attempted to bomb his beleaguered force.

This wouldn't do. He was a servant of the Emperor, upholder of proud traditions. Putting aside his dark mood, he obtained confirmation of when the unloading would be completed and they could make their way out of this cauldron. Just a few more hours, so close now, so close.

60 miles South of Davao. Dawn. Bridge of the Heavy Cruiser USS Houston.

'Flank speed and good luck to you all!' With grim satisfaction, Rear Admiral Rockwell signed off. In the few days following the suprise attacks all over the Pacific on Allied forces, there had been nothing but bad news. However as stragglers gathered in the port of Balikpapan from bases far and wide, he was ordered to take command of all major warships which arrived and take a task force to a new base south of the Philippines. Apparently his competence and aggressive handling of warships in exercises had been noted by those higher up, and he knew that now was the hour to repay their faith in full.

Yesterday while in transit he had received the news that Japanese forces were landing at Davao, and incredibly they appeared to be virtually unescorted. Racing North throughout the night he was now in a postion his fellow admirals would envy. Dawn had broken, and it was a beautiful morning. Already he could see dark smudges on the blue horizon, telltale signs that the coastal guns had found their mark. He cast another reassuring glance down to the map, Davao could only be approached from the south, the base was at the apex of a horseshoe shaped bay which was surrounded on all other sides by land.

Picking up his binoculars he surveyed the task force. His four cuisers and six destroyers cutting through the sea were a mix of American, Dutch and British ships. Three times faster than most enemy transports, fully loaded with ammunition, plenty of fuel, steaming in against unloading and damaged transports bottled in a horseshoe bay. Hell yes, his fellow admirals would be envious, this was as good as it gets. 'Open fire at 25,000 yards, and close in for as long as possible thereafter'. The captain nodded, and seconds later the 8 inch guns swung into position...

Ok! Enough of the cheesey melodrama

. For a bit of fun I would like to invite anyone to guess at how many enemy transports Rear Admiral Rockwell's task force sent to the bottom in the ensuing action. As a bit of extra help I'll (hopefully) post a screenie from round two of the action below - apologies if it doesn't work.

Guess away

Attachment (1)

Post #: 1

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 10:51:34 PM

Fallschirmjager

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Five is my guess. But I would chase an unescorted TF to the depths of hell with the firepower you have.

< Message edited by Fallschirmjager -- 7/25/2004 4:01:07 PM >

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 10:57:40 PM

Synjin

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Based on the luck my surface TF's have had against unescorted transport TFs, I'd guess... ummmm

3?

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 11:10:16 PM

SiTheSly

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I enjoyed the introduction.

I'm going low and saying two, I'm feeling sorry for the Jap commander

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 11:22:29 PM

Drex

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I'll go with 5 since there is bound to be some torpedo hits.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 11:31:29 PM

Bill Durrant

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3 for me

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Sunk by 35cm/45 1YT Gun - Near Singapore

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 11:35:48 PM

dtravel

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You know, I started reading this and immediately went "Hey! What's he doing writing fiction in MY world!".

Then I continued reading and realized that the Nips are even more bleeped here than they were in my version.

And you guys are all guessing way too low. My Boise sank four all on her own.

I'd say that here, only one or two damaged survivors - all the rest lost (some sinking while retreating the next day).

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 11:39:17 PM

Thayne

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Zero

At least, that would be the number when the shooting stops. Over the course of the next few days, ships would start dropping out of sight. But it would not sink right away.

This is my guess because:

(1) There are a lot of targets. This means fewer hits per target. This means fewer kills -- at least right away.

(2) The game does not seem to be written to make it easy for ships to sink right away. I have had a tanker with a system damage of 98 get hit by planes from a light carrier -- and stay afloat -- and get hit by planes from the same carrier again the next day -- and stay afloat, at least for a few more hours. It's sinking was reported later that night.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/25/2004 11:48:13 PM

2Stepper

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Going to opt with TWO.

Reasons are similar to what Thayne pointed out but with one additional. The distance in which firing began. 16000 yards. The attacking force will expend a share of led into the water just to close ranges.

I do think perhaps one or two others would sink as they limp away, but just from the shooting action alone I'll go with TWO.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 12:18:07 AM

Black Cat

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All of them over a 2-3 day period I`d guess

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Post #: 10

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 3:58:51 AM

Mike Scholl

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Based on my experiance, I'll go with 1-2 sunk; 2-3 damaged, and the rest not touched.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:05:20 AM

siRkid

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I'll go with 3 sunk.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:10:24 AM

Platoonist

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Ooooo. Vegas in the Pacific. I'll put my bet on two as well. Hit me.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:11:09 AM

Copper

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im guessin none, zip, zelch.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:29:42 AM

Montrose

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From: Gloucstershire UK
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Thanks to everyone who had a go with this bit of nonsense. No one got the number right although a few were close. The reason I posted this little story was that for me anyway the result was rather suprising, and not at all what I was expecting. The battle opened at 25,000 yards due to the perfect visibility, and lasted for five rounds until disengagement. By the time the action was over the Allied force had sunk...drum roll...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
One enemy ship.

I was so suprised I continued it as a head-to-head game so I could see if this was just Fog of War, but sure enough we had sunk one transport. Mind you, it was thoroughly sunk with nearly 50 hits. Two others were crippled and may not have made it, but the rest of the Japanese TF promptly buggered off out of engagement range (including some CD gun damaged and burning ships somehow escaping at 5 knots or less). Bearing in mind the very restricted geography, excellent weather, battered state and makeup of the Japanese, elite Allied leader, and size and status of the Allied TF, I was expecting hardly anything to survive.

Unfortunately I now know that by continuing it as a head-to-head I lost access to the combat report, however I have sat through several re-runs of that turn to see if I was just unlucky. Even more suprisingly, it seems that I was lucky to sink one. A common theme was that ships victimised one or two targets to excess, while the rest escaped scott free. In the the four more turns I replayed just to watch the same battle (listed below), on the first time for some reason the attack stopped after just two rounds, and on the fourth occasion the Japanese were moving out of the invasion area when we ran into them at night. The night attack was bizarrely the most effective. The other three daylight attacks were even worse than the first one, with no ships sunk.

Other threads have told of similar stories, and FWIW can I put the following thesis forward. Are ships being engaged according to their Detection Level? If so, those which are burning and inevitably more conspicuous are simply being targeted more and more while their undamaged bretheren are ignored, even in daylight and perfect visibility. What kind of TF commander would order his fleet to expend their ammunition on a ship which was already shot to pieces and ablaze from stem to stern, and not trouble the rest at all? I tried to think of some way that the Japanese could have escaped at least 90% intact from this, but it is against any logic of mine.

I hope this isn't construed as a rant against this otherwise very fine game, and FWIW can offer two suggestions if the devs would care to stop this from happening. One is to drop the current targetting routine and simply randomise the target from any visible enemy ships. Another could be to check for sunk ships at the end of individual ships firing rather than just at the end of the phase, to stop blazing, atomised, sunk when the AI actually checks it, hulks from being over-riddled.

The Tac-Ai also seems to break off from a can't lose situation way too early, but I'm not sure how they could encourage it to stay engaged. However at the end of the battle our ammunition was still plentiful and all ships were still capable of 30 knot+ speeds. Unfortunately I now currently think that Surface Combat TFs are pretty much a waste of time, if they can't materially hurt something like the Japanese had here.

I'd be very interested to hear any thoughts on this

Thanks.

The replay results:
_______________________________________
Day Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 41,61

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Tomozono Maru #3
AP Hie Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Kiko Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Sanfuku Maru
AP Tango Maru
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tatsuta Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AK Tokiwa Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Ujigawa Maru
AP Yamafuku Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston
CL De Ruyter
CL Marblehead
CL Boise
DD Alden
DD John D. Edwards
DD Pillsbury
DD Scout
DD Thanet
DD Thracian

______________________________________
Day Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 41,61

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima, Shell hits 5, on fire
MSW Tomozono Maru #3, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hie Maru
AP Kiko Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Sanfuku Maru
AP Tango Maru
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tatsuta Maru
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Tenryu Maru, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
AK Tokiwa Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2, Shell hits 29, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ujigawa Maru
AP Yamafuku Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston
CL De Ruyter
CL Marblehead
CL Boise
DD Alden
DD John D. Edwards
DD Pillsbury
DD Scout
DD Thanet
DD Thracian

_______________________________________
Day Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 41,61

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima, Shell hits 24, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Tomozono Maru #3
AP Hie Maru
AP Kiko Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Sanfuku Maru
AP Tango Maru
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
AP Tatsuta Maru, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AK Tokiwa Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Ujigawa Maru
AP Yamafuku Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston
CL De Ruyter
CL Marblehead
CL Boise, Shell hits 1
DD Alden
DD John D. Edwards
DD Pillsbury
DD Scout
DD Thanet
DD Thracian

______________________________
Night Time Surface Combat at 42,62

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima
MSW Tomozono Maru #3
AP Hie Maru
AP Kiko Maru, Shell hits 48, on fire, heavy damage
AP Sanfuku Maru
AP Tango Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Tarushima Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tatsuta Maru, Shell hits 18, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AK Tokiwa Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Ujigawa Maru
AP Yamafuku Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 1
CL De Ruyter
CL Marblehead
CL Boise
DD Alden
DD John D. Edwards
DD Pillsbury
DD Scout
DD Thanet
DD Thracian

[Edit] Typos.

< Message edited by Montrose -- 7/26/2004 2:31:49 AM >

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:33:14 AM

Williamb

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I think you mean one outright.

maybe some otehrs wont make it back to port ?

Have seen some aars that suggest ships sink later from damage inflicted.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:45:58 AM

Thayne

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This actually is not a senseless result.

The standard tactic for a bunch of freighters who get jumped by an enemy task force is to scatter. They head off in different directions. The attackers have the ability to get a small number of ships. By then, the rest are gone.

The attackers have the option of splitting up their force -- one ship chases each enemy frieghter. But, that has its own risks.

I think these results are quite realistic.

Thayne

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Post #: 17

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:51:43 AM

Platoonist

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Well...before you think surface combat TFs are a waste of time.....remember this. Despite the small number of Japanese ships lost or damaged the 56th Infantry Brigade never made it ashore at Davao. That's gotta knock a dent in the Japanese time schedule.

< Message edited by Platoonist -- 7/26/2004 2:52:31 AM >

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:52:26 AM

doomonyou

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I brought up this exact issue in a post that must now be something like 7 pages in. My example was the Repulse and POW at 20000 yards with 4 DDs catching like six AK/APs and a PG and only sinking one PG and one AK with damage to one more. In broad daylight with no rain and a mininmum speed advatange over the other ships of at least 10 knots.

this is constantly happening to me in my game. some people said " oh you only bump into one part of the convoy. Apparently convoys in this game are spread out over the full 60 miles of the hex, but if attacked by a sub, all of the escorts instantaneously reassemble overhead of the sub and take thier shots at it (Oh they may miss but bammo thier right there)

There is no assemblage of ships I have ever been able to put together that can catch more than 30% of an enemy convoy escorted by minor ships (a few pgs, a MSW, a DE or DD etc.), IN DAYLIGHT

Frankly while NIGHT combat it makes sense ( you could more easily scatter obviously) in daytime this is probably the most frustrating part of the game.

Surface combatants are litterally pointless wastes of time in comparative damage values especially against helpless opposition. Three sub ecounters with lone subs will likely end up doing as much damage to any unarmed convoy you find as will pretty much the entire surface complement of the DEI, PI and british Malaysa encountering the same thing on one day in the bright open ocean with 2 knot breezes and one foot swells.

The best part is when the convoy is a spotted convoy and your ships know the approximate number of ships in the area (say 10 are reported) then they encounter two of them (and of course one is the MSW because when hunting loaded troop transports I always take the MSW down with extra rounds), pound them to scrap, torpedo the floatsam, and depth charge the splinters on the seabed and then turn around without bothering to chase down the rest of the ships that they KNOW Are there because three hours ago a PBY saw 10 ships in that bay in the southern part of Davao where there is litterally NO EGRESS from but your ships are done with day light massacre because while they know at least a few more helpless victims loaded with helpless japanese troops are waiting thier turn to die its miller time and those cold brews are back at base.

/rant off

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:57:48 AM

Williamb

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Hm was a TASK Force of ships that caught that Convoy. you'd think they'd break off chasing in all directions. Not like those ships can run fast.

Trying to recall a run made by the Scharenhost of the german navy during WWII. It hit a convoy on the way to Russia and they scattered also. but I believe that the Scharenhost ALONE sank 8 to 10 ships in a 3 hour period.

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 4:58:22 AM

pompack

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For most of the examples, the ML Ikitsushima played the same role that the Rawilpindi (sp?) played in real life. One very outclassed pseudo-warship steams directly toward the enemy while the merchies all scatter.

With that said, I am beginning to feel that this scatter tactic is a little TOO effective. I believe that the algorithms result in over-concentration; while I didn't post a prediction I too felt that 3-5 would have been the expected result

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RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:00:00 AM

Thayne

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Sorry . . .

If you come across a convoy, the enemy ships scatter. You chase down one or two ships and spend enough time putting shells into them that it actually does sink. By that time, the rest of the convoy is over the horizon.

Using spotter planes, you may be able to see the rest. You begin pursuit. You have to make up for a lot of ground, because this ship ex hypothesi took off in some different direction from the ship you hunted.

Do not expect your victims to maintain radio contact in these situations. They know who you went after -- in what direction. When you go after the second or third one, that news gets reported to the others, who make the appropraite course corretions.

When you catch and sink this one, the others are now still further away.

That's about it. Three enemy ships, maximum.

Anything more, and you are requiring that the "AI" simply forget the best way that people in this situation have to save themselves.

The results sound perfectly reasonable to me . . . unless you decide to split up your task force. Which you could have done before engaging the enemy, by the way, unless the encounter is a complete surprise. Just create 15 individual task forces that all happen to be going in the same direction.

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Post #: 22

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:02:41 AM

Williamb

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From: Dayton Ohio
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Sor got my facts wrong it was the Admiral Scheer and she got the Jervis bay and 5 merchies

Admiral Scheer 1940 - Royal Navy Single Ship Action

5th - Loss of the "Jervis Bay" - Halifax/UK convoy HX84 with 37 ships and its solitary escort, armed merchant cruiser "Jervis Bay" (Capt Fegen) is attacked by the 11in-gunned pocket battleship "Admiral Scheer" in mid-Atlantic. The convoy is ordered to scatter as "JERVIS BAY" heads for the "Scheer", guns firing. The end is in no doubt and she goes down, but her sacrifice saves all but five of the merchant ships. Capt Edward Fegen RN is posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.

It is in this action that tanker "San Demetrio" is damaged by gunfire and abandoned. Later re-boarded by a few of her crew, they get her into port in spite of the greatest difficulties and privations.

"Admiral Scheer" heads for the central and later the South Atlantic.

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Post #: 23

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:03:02 AM

doomonyou

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sorry to double but this must have come up while I was typing.

I

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thayne

This actually is not a senseless result.

The standard tactic for a bunch of freighters who get jumped by an enemy task force is to scatter. They head off in different directions. The attackers have the ability to get a small number of ships. By then, the rest are gone.

The attackers have the option of splitting up their force -- one ship chases each enemy frieghter. But, that has its own risks.

I think these results are quite realistic.

Thayne

This makes me nutz.

If the freighters scatter with thier speeds of 13 from DD and CL with speeds of 33 several of them aren't getting out of visual range too fast and are getting wasted.

Logically if the ship really do scatter enough to get away from a reasonably spread out groups of angry ships that can in many cases go 250% of thier speed, then how the hell is it that the next moring all of these ships are back in perfect order?

The example above is a group of what 10 ships chasing say fiffteen cargo ships? and a Hex is 60 miles across right? So even assuming the most dispertion possible (one cargo ship every four miles, which btw renders the ships utterly undefended from subs) that combat group should be comfortable breaking into three groups of one CL and two DDs with one doubled with the CA and those packets should wipe the floor with half the convoy.

Remember that my objection is ESPECIALLY VALID in broad daylight without rain. From the mast of a CL you should have probably 15000-20000 yards in all directions. How many cargo ships going 35% of your speed are you going to let get away?

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Post #: 24

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:14:31 AM

Thayne

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Doomonyou:

There are many issues to be considered.

A task force will travel the speed of its slowest ship. Perhaps it is 33, perhaps not. I do not know.

You burn up a lot of fuel travelling at that speed. Is it worth it?

Remember, you are in hostile waters. You need to be on the look out for enemy support ships, enemy planes, and enemy submarines. The merchant ships have reason to travel at full speed in whatever direction they pick.

Your task force, on the other hand, has less justification. This kind of wild charge after a defenseless little ship is exactly the way to set up an ambush (either by submarine or surface fleet). Or (since you are not practicing any type of defensive maneuvering and sonar does not work at these high speeds), you could just be setting you up for a nice torpedo in the midship.

Now, combat results are likely going to very. There will be battles with more enemy casualties, and battles with fewer. These results reflect the different tactics that the two forces decided to use, their effectiveness, and a bit of luck. So, sometimes, the results will be more ships sunk. Sometimes less.

Now, I agree that it would be difficult for the ships to form up again in perfect formation the next day. I am not saying that everything is perfectly modeled. But, it makes more sense than people are giving it credit for.

Sure, it would be fun to slaugher a gaggle of defenseless little merchant ships.

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Post #: 25

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:25:25 AM

Williamb

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From: Dayton Ohio
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Tyically a Task Force of smaller ships would be divided up into subgroups. just example WWII battles.

For example such as in the Guadacanal battles or the battle of java Sea the allies had a vanguard of destroyers then a column of cruisers then a rear group of destroyers.

The Van Guard would rush in first launching torpedos. Then they'd break off and the Crusiers would fire on the ships as they zig zag away from the destroyers torpedos. Then the rear destroyers would launch a second strike and lay smoke as the column retired. Or so the stragety was to go.

So they never acted as a solid group of ships.

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Post #: 26

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:41:28 AM

Thayne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: William Amos

Tyically a Task Force of smaller ships would be divided up into subgroups. just example WWII battles.

For example such as in the Guadacanal battles or the battle of java Sea the allies had a vanguard of destroyers then a column of cruisers then a rear group of destroyers.

The Van Guard would rush in first launching torpedos. Then they'd break off and the Crusiers would fire on the ships as they zig zag away from the destroyers torpedos. Then the rear destroyers would launch a second strike and lay smoke as the column retired. Or so the stragety was to go.

So they never acted as a solid group of ships.

Sorry, but this sounds very much as if they were acting like a solid groups of ships. They were not all doing the same thing. But no captain had much discretion in what they would be doing in the battle either. Each has to follow their role in the script, or things would get confused and the enemy would take advantage of the resulting chaos.

Now, if you want to say that 1 ship sunk and a few others sinking is a bit light, I would not have much to say against that. It's a judgment call.

If you want to say that every single member of the convoy should have ended up on the ocean floor . . . um, no. Not likely. Not unless the task force stumbled on the keystone cops of merchant shipdome.

< Message edited by Thayne -- 7/26/2004 3:43:41 AM >

(in reply to Williamb)

Post #: 27

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:48:21 AM

Platoonist

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From: Kila Hana
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Just out of curiousity what are were inspiration/leadership ratings of the respective fleet commanders? Would re-running this scenario with an Arliegh Burke type change the results?

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(in reply to Thayne)

Post #: 28

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 5:50:40 AM

Williamb

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From: Dayton Ohio
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Yeah they had a battle plan but some descretion was left to the division leaders.

Also looking back at the actual battle such as the Admiral Scheer one you can see a lone BATTLESHIP (Albet a smaller pocket battleship) was able to kill an armed Cruiser in battle THEN still hunt down 5 merchants and kill them also. So isnt far fetched for a fast group of ships to get a large number of kills in a battle like this.

I guess the point is dont send your merchants off alone into hostile waters.

(in reply to Thayne)

Post #: 29

RE: A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome. - 7/26/2004 1:44:37 PM

doomonyou

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but that is the point. In this game you can send your convoys anywhere you want protected by a MSW or a PG and even if they encounter 10 warships (nearly one warship for every merchantman, each warship at least 100% faster then thier prey) in broad daylight they stand very little chance of the amount of loss they would probably take from encountering 10 good Jap torpedo bombers.

Is this the relationship for surface combat from WWII?

BTW I am NOT saying that every encounter should be a Little big horn on water, but also let us remember that in both of my examples and in the one provided here, these were air-spotted convoys in daylight!. No BB's or CVs spotted etc. They were already reconned.

So yes a warship captain in those circumstances would likely stick it in and break it off at the hilt.

That convoy should have taken it worse from 10 PTs much less 10 real warships.

Why does this matter? because this is a historical simulation. And having surface combat task forces incapable of effectively hurting unarmed ships in daylight because they can "scatter" is silly.

Why are we imputing such impressive coordination to the merchies (meaning being able to outfox faster ships that can sink you at five miles distance) but a combat task force is forced to what, form a calvary square and volley fire by squad?

In the scenario provided the only thing that would save some of the ships is that there were enough of them that the warships would take enough time to destory 6 or seven of them plus the escort suicide charge that the rest would get away into the approaching darkness later that day.

(in reply to Williamb)

Post #: 30

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