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RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 11:36:39 AM   
steveh11Matrix


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So Noted.

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Post #: 181
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 11:42:14 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

Yes, Nate Groups are set to upgrade Oscar, Tony, or Tojo. A player isn't given the option of which Nate groups upgrades to Tonys. It is fixed regardless of production, the military situation or the players choice.


According to list I got yesterday (friend gave it to me - he got it from either here or from Spooky'a) the Ki-27 "Nate" can only upgrate to Ki-43-IIa "Oscar" and that's last update (please look at table below):


Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army


Are you saying that this table is inaccurate and that some Ki-27 "Nate" upgrate to KI-61 KA1c "Tony" or Ki-44 IIb "Tojo"?


Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)
Post #: 182
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 11:45:27 AM   
Apollo11


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HI all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

All you can do in the editor is tell one air unit or aircraft type specifically what the next upgrade step (aircraft type) will be. You cannot set an upgrade path of "any fighter", etc.


So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 183
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 11:57:56 AM   
Drongo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...



Early in the beta, that was the only choice. However a field was added to the air unit's database entries that (if containing a value) will force the air unit to upgrade to a different upgrade path than that which would have been derived from its current a/c type.

This possibly also answers the question you asked Culiacan Mexico.

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Post #: 184
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 12:01:59 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
According to list I got yesterday (friend gave it to me - he got it from either here or from Spooky'a) the Ki-27 "Nate" can only upgrate to Ki-43-IIa "Oscar" and that's last update (please look at table below):


Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army


Are you saying that this table is inaccurate and that some Ki-27 "Nate" upgrate to KI-61 KA1c "Tony" or Ki-44 IIb "Tojo"?


Leo "Apollo11"
I don’t have the game here, but at the start of the game (scenario 15) there are three Nate groups in Tokyo: two upgrade to Oscars and one goes either to Tony or Tojo… I forget which one. There is one Nate group in one China and one in Manchuko (sp) that also are able to upgrade to Tony/Tojo.

Most do upgrade to Oscars and die there. A few are able to upgrade to Tony/Tojo and then Frank… I don’t know where after that.

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Post #: 185
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 12:16:23 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...



Early in the beta, that was the only choice. However a field was added to the air unit's database entries that (if containing a value) will force the air unit to upgrade to a different upgrade path than that which would have been derived from its current a/c type.

This possibly also answers the question you asked Culiacan Mexico.


I see... I will look into WitP Scenario and Database editor then...

Thanks for info!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
I found that field (called "Upgrade") in Witp database editor!

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 8/5/2004 11:47:47 AM >


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Post #: 186
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 1:17:07 PM   
Captain Cruft


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It rumbles on ...

Well I guess the best answer to this is going to be to get the official scenarios edited so as to have rational plane upgrade paths for the army fighters. The navy stuff seems largely OK to me.

As an aside, what is the problem with playing unofficial scenarios for PBEM? I don't understand this, it's not like it's a tournament and there's money involved. If you do get really unlucky and end up playing a cheat then you just quit the game and never speak to them again. Simple.

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Post #: 187
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 2:10:07 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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Boah.... something really heating up (and gladly it is cold again )

as a BTR/BOB guy, the main nonunderstanding point of view is the restriction of "fighter A (IJA) to fighter B (IJA)" thing...

as i understood the japanese production, they lacked a lot things.... but if "we" (as the japanese) or the AI (cause i am the allied) make it better as historical, has less losses and more supplies from sra to the homeland and later lba-attacks against its industries, it should be allowed to optimize the things...

i can´t understood the "why not the p51 from the beginning" or the "i want F22 - cause everything is fantasy" speaking.

What is the problem. The same failure of gamedesign is in the allied side...
if i have 300 Spits more as i need, but 4 groups with "lesser" planes who wait for the ThunderboltII i belive it is stupid that i can´t change em to this...

sure, because these groups flew HISTORICALLY not these planes is a point.
But on the other hand, do we know why they not flew the other planes ? Maybe cause they had so little of em ? This system we have now here in WitP is the worst of all possible systems...
We should either have the solution "no control" with stupid results (cause you have 1000 planes in the pool you do not need and never had produced any longer after you got the "better" new plane, this would be a minus, but okay, many games aren´t perfect.

or, we get the you can upgrade any plane in a row if they are in the pool (with a experience minus, cause a Spit V to a Spit VIII is a difference to a Thunderbolt (for example)) and some other logical things like IJN does not up/downgrade to IJA or Bomber to fighter etc....

A restrictive btr-system would be perfect for me.... ad i will ever accept any user scenario that includes such corrections (so you can upgrade in the row cause you have allways the minimal nr. of planes in the pool, just be honest and don´t use em if you haven´t produced em... so you can allways "upgrade peggy to ki21" if you have a lot ki21 in the pool and accidentally upgraded em (in my adopted system) to ki49s...

This should be true for both sides, just the research thing should be a favourite for the japanese side (cause the pac war was a side area of ww2 for the allies (maybe the navyplanes could be different...., but not for the "important" army planes... pac war was too unimportant for that)...

it seems that the real problem come with the "allied fanboyhood" (no blameing)... these people see it from the perspective "i play as the allies" and ignore the possibility that the axis player can do better as historically (and they cry if this happen)... but if this would be true, the game should be only playable as the allies....

But also, with the editor, some fair people (no, i never would play a mdiehl-scenario only as the allies side, sorry, just kidding) creating campagins that correct these "failures", everything is fine...

i think, if mogami would do such scenario we could be sure that it will be fair (and not fanboysided...)

i play the game from both sides, do not care the fanboyhood (still love to correct hellcat/corsair vers. spitfires) and think the game is great and is worth to buy it....



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Post #: 188
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 2:36:59 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Much as I would like to have more flexibility if I accept that we are not going to get it is there an acceptable compromise whereby and extra dozen or so Oscar 2 gps get an additional upgrade option to Franks or Tojos so that if a player produces enough of these types he can populate the gps.

Is that the work around that would be acceptable to the Japanese players.

As a mostly Allied player I detect its late war japanese fighters that are the majorproblem.

(Although I must admit I hate as an Allied player having Seafires in my pool and being stuck with Fulmars in mid 42 until i can upgrade to Dec 42 please please delay availability of Seafires to stop me torturing myself)

ANdy

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Post #: 189
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:13:06 PM   
Spooky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Much as I would like to have more flexibility if I accept that we are not going to get it is there an acceptable compromise whereby and extra dozen or so Oscar 2 gps get an additional upgrade option to Franks or Tojos so that if a player produces enough of these types he can populate the gps.

Is that the work around that would be acceptable to the Japanese players.

As a mostly Allied player I detect its late war japanese fighters that are the majorproblem.

ANdy


Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

I believe a big design mistake has been done with this hard-coded plane upgrade model - justified for a 1.5 year long operational strategy game such as UV but not for a 5 years long global strategy game such as WITP.

Now, it is up to Matrix & 2by3 to decide what they want to do. They can either :
- introduce an "on-the-fly" BTR-like option for the players who want it ... and so show once more that, unlike most publishers, they really listen to their customers' feedback
- tell us that the WITP design will not be modified and so ask us to try to find some rough work-around with the editor (such as the one proposed by Andy Mac) ... with the risk of angering some WITP buyers and so losing some future Matrix Games sales

< Message edited by Spooky -- 8/5/2004 2:15:40 PM >


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Post #: 190
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:14:43 PM   
steveh11Matrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky
Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

Just as a curiosity thing: How do you know that, Spooky?

Steve.

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Post #: 191
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:26:07 PM   
Lemurs!


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Hi all,

I edited for 13.5 hours yesterday and have finished most of the upgrades, fixes etc.

I revamped the aircraft upgrade system yet more so i think it is pretty much as good as you can get within this system.
There are no fantasy elements to my scenario 26. No F/A 18's.
I hope to have this on Spooky's site later today because I would like to play rather than edit.

I did miss one thing however; When patch 1.2 came out the readme did not list the OOB changes. Does someone have a list of OOB changes in the patch?
I had thought Kid said he was going to list them so i looked under his recent posts and did not see this.
Can anyone help?
Either email or just point me in the right direction.

Michael
lysimachus@charter.net

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Post #: 192
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:36:14 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
I did miss one thing however; When patch 1.2 came out the readme did not list the OOB changes. Does someone have a list of OOB changes in the patch?
I had thought Kid said he was going to list them so i looked under his recent posts and did not see this.
Can anyone help?

Either email or just point me in the right direction.

Michael
lysimachus@charter.net


The OOB changes were ommited from documentation that went with the patch but Matrix/2by3 listed it afterwards in "sticky" thread that announced v1.21 (I don't know if v1.20 had OOB changes) ...

Hope that helps...

1.20

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D674621

1.21

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D676241


1.21 OOB Changes

Scenarios 2, 8, 15 and 16
Removed 23rd Australian Brigade (2591) from Darwin, Replaced with Gull Force Battalion (2591) in Darwin and Lark Force Battalion (2600) and placed in Rabaul (714)

Scenarios 8, 9, 13, 14, 15 and 16
BB Mississippi arriving with wrong class (1214 - October 42) changed to Dec 41 (179) class

All Scenarios
BB Warspite Upgrade class 1406, 20mm ammo in slot 10 set to 0, and weapon could not replenish ammo. Changed to 36

Scenarios 10 and 11
Fixed Warspite class ships Warspite (3174) and Valiant (3175) and Queen Elizabeth (3176) 20mm ammo in slot 10 from 0 to 36


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 193
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:36:42 PM   
Spooky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky
Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

Just as a curiosity thing: How do you know that, Spooky?

Steve.


I sent yesterday a mail to Erik with a link to this thread.

Even if he was at the World Boardgaming Championships and so probably without a good Internet connection, he took the time to write me that he will take a look at this thread when he is back next week.

So I wish to thank Erik for his devotion to the Matrix gamers community

< Message edited by Spooky -- 8/5/2004 2:38:03 PM >


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Post #: 194
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:39:58 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

I believe a big design mistake has been done with this hard-coded plane upgrade model - justified for a 1.5 year long operational strategy game such as UV but not for a 5 years long global strategy game such as WITP.


Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...


BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 195
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:51:18 PM   
Lemurs!


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Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.
Now I can finish this and get it to Spooky.

Don't end your site Spooky-wan Kenobi, you are our only hope!

Mike

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Post #: 196
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:53:30 PM   
Spooky


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From: Froggy Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...

BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data

Leo "Apollo11"


The point is that we do not want any fixed upgrade path. Since we can decide all the aspects of plane production, we want to be able to decide with which planes a Japanese squadron is going to be upgraded - with of course some limits : IJN -> IJN, IJA -> IJA, fighter -> fighers ...) - like in GG's BTR !

What you propose is an useful work-around - but unfortunately still a work-around

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Post #: 197
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 3:57:52 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.


Michael, no problem at all... glad to help you...


BTW, you, obviously, used WitP Editors the most of any of us here (except for WitP BETA guys).

What do you think of its usability and user friendliness?


I posted one thread in "Scenario Design / Game Editor":

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D668455


Can you please comment there what would you like to be, possibly, changed in editors to speed up the editing?

I also have several ideas and I think that if enough of us ask for reasonable changes this can be done!


Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 198
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 4:02:27 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...

BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data

Leo "Apollo11"


The point is that we do not want any fixed upgrade path. Since we can decide all the aspects of plane production, we want to be able to decide with which planes a Japanese squadron is going to be upgraded - with of course some limits : IJN -> IJN, IJA -> IJA, fighter -> fighers ...) - like in GG's BTR !

What you propose is an useful work-around - but unfortunately still a work-around


I don't know... IMHO the game engine is like it is and my proposed soulution is, again IMHO, only possible way (out of rather big possible code rewrite which I doubt would happen)...

If we all (as community) do our work OK we can fix this and get what we want by simply using current game engine capabilities...


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 199
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 4:02:46 PM   
Spooky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.
Now I can finish this and get it to Spooky.

Don't end your site Spooky-wan Kenobi, you are our only hope!

Mike


OK, Princess Lei ... Sorry ... Mike

Don't worry, the site is not going to be closed

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Post #: 200
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 4:08:05 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

Don't worry, the site is not going to be closed


_GREAT_ - thanks !

Your site was always (since very early UV days) on my daily list of WWW sites to visit...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
My regular UV PBEM opponent (we even now play UV PBEMs) is Mario Valle - I think you know him.

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 201
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:11:02 PM   
Lemurs!


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Apollo11,

I think this scenario editor is quite well built. If I were to ask for one piece of added functionality it would be a button that upgrades all ships or airgroups to their coresponding class values.

I hate modding an american destroyer class and then having to mod 67 individual ships as well.
Also, it is a huge risk for bugs; when i redo the ships i just click the ship name, click the class to bring up the class list and click on the same name.
But if i slip slightly i end up with a different classs. I have already done this a couple of times as i get editing in a hurry.

Mike

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Post #: 202
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:22:46 PM   
Oznoyng

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
It distorts the game historically.

History goes out the window as soon as I enter orders and the random number generator gets involved in resolving the first turn. We can adhere closely to the realities of WW2, but we can't reproduce it. And why would we want to? I can go read books if I want that. The problem with this rule is that it crosses the line between adhering to the realities and enforcing history on a situation that differs from history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
As a player you know the capabilities of each aircraft and can decide well in advance which will be best suited for you needs… this is based on data based on hindsight. The Japanese didn’t know in January of 1942 how good the Frank was going to be, yet the player does. There were reasons why the Japanese continued to field Oscars throughout the war… political, military, economic, etc… free upgrade paths ignores these restraints. One can see these restrains when one looks at how changing leaders or moving unit from restricted commands works.

This is why I am against research. I already know when I am going to get it and how good it will be. "Researching" in this case just isn't right imo. House rules can take care of this from my perspective: No additions to factories til after a plane goes into production, and no research beyond that conducted at the start.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
I think the present system is the developer’s way of stopping the old non-historical tactic in PacWar where every Allied Groups was fly P-40s by mid-1942. It is a very good tactic in the game, but could never have been done in real life.

Restricting that is fine, as long as it doesn't interfere with making choices consistent with the events of the game. In my mind, the major problem here arises from a situation in which the Japanese do better than history and manage to get more advanced aircraft produced than they did historically. The "historical" limitations to airgroups becomes a major point for the Japanese player.

I would support a BTR style upgrade path limited by IJA/IJN divisions and with a PP cost to upgrade outside of the existing path. It would be appropriate to have additional costs for moving between subtypes - fighter bomber/fighter/float fighter or engine configurations - 1/2/4 engine.

Alternatively, I would support upgrade paths that provided more advanced aircraft as terminal upgrades with the added ability to choose the "upgrade". The list of choices should include all active upgrades and ancestors of the most advanced active upgrade. By active I mean the aircraft is being produced.

(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)
Post #: 203
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:31:50 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 8/5/2004 4:35:27 PM >


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Post #: 204
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:33:52 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Leo -

Is that Croatian thingie an ex Texas-class or something? And forgive me for not recognizing those things sticking out .. are they torpedo net spars or just -- well, since it is the Croatian navy... err, hmmm, oars?

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Post #: 205
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:44:22 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.


Hmmm ... getting some new Essex-CV in replacement of sunk US CV - isn't it some kind of production reponse to the circumstances And please do not forget that the Pacific Theater was secondary compared with the European one - so the main US plane R&D and production decision were decided by how the war was going on in Europe and not in the Pacific.

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Post #: 206
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:49:20 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.



And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.

Upgrading groups outside the bounds of the controls put in place renders the entire Japanese production problems with aircraft gone which is just nuts. You want that, I guess we need to go through the aircraft and tone down all the late war japanese specs to reality levels instead of planned values. Also need to add about 50 more engine factory types just to bring you guys into check ... you want plane x, you need to retool to make the engine for it too. Most of Japan's aircraft were created out of combinations of parts due to production shortages.

Also need to add the hundreds of sub types and force you to research through them to get to the real production aircraft to prevent the gamey "i'm just going to convert everything to A7W's so I don't need to spend anything on other then those factories".

Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought.

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 8/5/2004 11:50:58 AM >

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 207
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:51:34 PM   
Arnir


Posts: 482
Joined: 10/12/2002
From: Alberta. In Texas.
Status: offline
Army Air Force plane design would be based on Europe, but I don't think the USN/USMC design would be. Their primary focus was always the PTO.

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Post #: 208
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 6:56:36 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.



And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.

Upgrading groups outside the bounds of the controls put in place renders the entire Japanese production problems with aircraft gone which is just nuts. You want that, I guess we need to go through the aircraft and tone down all the late war japanese specs to reality levels instead of planned values. Also need to add about 50 more engine factory types just to bring you guys into check ... you want plane x, you need to retool to make the engine for it too. Most of Japan's aircraft were created out of combinations of parts due to production shortages.

Also need to add the hundreds of sub types and force you to research through them to get to the real production aircraft to prevent the gamey "i'm just going to convert everything to A7W's so I don't need to spend anything on other then those factories".

Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought.


Then that's what should be done.

However, until such time as that happens, the current way things are handled is silly. You can keep a multitude of groups in their current low tier aircraft models and then suddenly, provided you have the stocks/supplies built up, change all of them at once. So much for the idea of re-training to a new aircraft type in that case.

The situation still stands as being a waste of time and effort. There is no reason to research in any greater quantity newer aircraft because once they come online, they either can't be used or can only be used in small numbers regardless of the amount in stockpiles and the losses being suffered.

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Post #: 209
RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/5/2004 7:00:21 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Hmmm ... getting some new Essex-CV in replacement of sunk US CV - isn't it some kind of production reponse to the circumstances And please do not forget that the Pacific Theater was secondary compared with the European one - so the main US plane R&D and production decision were decided by how the war was going on in Europe and not in the Pacific.


The Essex class argument isn't what we're talking about and is a poor example. Matrix has simply assumed that ships that were already scheduled for production would indeed be built through completion.

As to the Pacific, the solutions that were good in the ETO were good in the PTO as well. Indeed, given the longer ranges generally attendant in the PTO one would want yet more drop-tank equipped P-51s, P-47s, and P38s. Even the top of the line late war Japanese a/c were not quite up to the standards of ETO aircraft. So whatever you make to counter the FW-190s will work even better, for example, against Ki-84s and Ki-100s.

Of course, that's not really what Japanese aficionados want to hear. They want to hear "Yes, you can build and man hundreds of Ki-84s by 1944 but you won't have to face F4Us on CVs until some time in 1945."

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Post #: 210
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