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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 8:15:12 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

All complaining aside
how does wanting to be able to change a I-153 unit over to a Demon unit instead of waiting for the P-40 N to come along, make this a unhistorcal game, or a gamer wanted to play with only uber planes (I like the Demon, I got Demons in stock, but nothing uses them in this Campaign I am playing)

and if the arguement is going to be made to keep the game historcal, by not letting the Allied players make changes to plane units, then don't let the JP player make changes either

make the units what they were, and if we disagree, we can post or cry in the OOB post about why this or that unit is flying the wrong type of bird

but again, I wasn't asking for the Allies to be able to change all there planes to the best of the pack, only to be able to use what is in stock at the time, and maybe using PP would be a way to control it, the better the plane type, the more it will cost you

PP points down the road are to vauleable to wastes on just anything, so it would be a game choice, do you change over a HQ to a new command area or do you give a Fighter Squadron some planes

Once again, there are design limitations that are going to keep this from happenning, to a big degree, even with the editor. We'll leave it to others "in-the-know" to fully explain the why at a technical level, should they desire (they've shown no such compunction to do so so far). It's still as good a game as this type of game gets these days, even without flexible upgrade paths. Most of us can live with it and be happy!

quote:

Zoomie, when is your game coming out, I hope you got a demo we can try

Actually, WitP is taking 100% away from my own efforts! I have my basic presentation libs almost done, but I have yet to play around with the "server" side. It took three programmers what? 3 years to get WitP out the door, and that was with borrowing a lot of stuff from UV. And that was also working full-time.

I would hope to have some kind of feasability demo working inside of two years or so, assuming no life altering personal circumstances (like the release of another WitP type title!). Remember, I HAVE a day job and two kids in college to pay for and WitP turns to play.....

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/2/2004 6:18:22 PM >

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 31

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 8:30:13 PM

Caltone

Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Stick to what you know, Fraggo, programming, application design, application performance are what I make my living at and I'm as good as any and better than most at it.

Umm, golly gee little programmer dude, what exactly do you think I do for a living for Big Blue? You are just a tad full of yourself at times. Like you are the only person in the world who ever wrote a line of code? I grew up and became an Architect. More full telling your types what to do

As far as your inability to read the posts here by others complaining about how slow the game runs on system blah blah blah, well, I'm not going to repeat all their posts, I'm sure they can slap you silly as far as your goal of making witp run slower then it already does by being pigged out with lots of useless libraries vs tight code routines that let the monster run on 4+ year old pc's

And you want to talk about "being pigged out on lots of useless libraries"!!! 80% of your memory use and slowness is derived from guess what! That third party ULTIMATE PIG library......Direct X!!! All to play some sounds and video clips most turn off after day one....

As I stated, there is NO reason to code turn based wargames the way GG and Co., do it anymore. Not one, other than the time to invest in learning a new way. And, of course, that may very well be reason enough...

Umm Zoomie, no offense but you are really just rude. It's poor form to come into someone's house and criticize thier work.

How would your wife feel if strangers came over and spent the evening telling her how awful her decorating choices were? Don't you just love it when your boss tells you all about the things you've done wrong?

I'm a programmer as well, and I can't count the number of times I've had to pick up someone else's code and rework it or debug it because someone's on vacation or transferred. All along the way I'm thinking "I would've done this or that, this would've been a better way" When I finished I didn't go running to the guy and tell him how bad his work was and how I would have done it better.

That's just rude.

I look at it this way, WitP works, it's a hell of a lot of fun, it plays on a wide range of machines, and it's the fulfillment of many wargamers dreams. Some of this "I'm better than you" crap has to stop, starting to ring a bit of mine's bigger than yours

Let's be adults and enjoy this excellent game. Lets talk about the game and not the way it crunches numbers. OK?

_____________________________

"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 32

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 8:58:13 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Stick to what you know, Fraggo, programming, application design, application performance are what I make my living at and I'm as good as any and better than most at it.

Umm, golly gee little programmer dude, what exactly do you think I do for a living for Big Blue? You are just a tad full of yourself at times. Like you are the only person in the world who ever wrote a line of code? I grew up and became an Architect. More full telling your types what to do

As far as your inability to read the posts here by others complaining about how slow the game runs on system blah blah blah, well, I'm not going to repeat all their posts, I'm sure they can slap you silly as far as your goal of making witp run slower then it already does by being pigged out with lots of useless libraries vs tight code routines that let the monster run on 4+ year old pc's

And you want to talk about "being pigged out on lots of useless libraries"!!! 80% of your memory use and slowness is derived from guess what! That third party ULTIMATE PIG library......Direct X!!! All to play some sounds and video clips most turn off after day one....

As I stated, there is NO reason to code turn based wargames the way GG and Co., do it anymore. Not one, other than the time to invest in learning a new way. And, of course, that may very well be reason enough...

Umm Zoomie, no offense but you are really just rude. It's poor form to come into someone's house and criticize thier work.

How would your wife feel if strangers came over and spent the evening telling her how awful her decorating choices were? Don't you just love it when your boss tells you all about the things you've done wrong?

I'm a programmer as well, and I can't count the number of times I've had to pick up someone else's code and rework it or debug it because someone's on vacation or transferred. All along the way I'm thinking "I would've done this or that, this would've been a better way" When I finished I didn't go running to the guy and tell him how bad his work was and how I would have done it better.

That's just rude.

I look at it this way, WitP works, it's a hell of a lot of fun, it plays on a wide range of machines, and it's the fulfillment of many wargamers dreams. Some of this "I'm better than you" crap has to stop, starting to ring a bit of mine's bigger than yours

Let's be adults and enjoy this excellent game. Lets talk about the game and not the way it crunches numbers. OK?

Nothing rude at all about any of it. I have always defended the playability of this game, and the general fun of it and always state as long as if you play within the design limitation of the game you are going to be more than pleased.

However, once posters start posting angst at features that are obviously well beyond the design capabilities of the game, as it sits today, like hard-coded aircraft upgrade paths, it invites at least some minimal explanation as to WHY they may not be able to "fix" such a thing. Since the developers almost NEVER post to these forums (and the betas are NOT in any way, shape or form, nor the Matrix staff that posts here), some try and expain in a very broad sense, without detailed knowledge of the specifics, WHY some "fixes" may not be possible.

And stating clear FACT is not being rude. Hard coded, fixed array indexing, 100% memory caching of data, "slots", old style 'C' language procedural programming and pointer arithmetic are quite plain and simply......OBSOLETE methods that left other software markets many, many years ago for obvious reason. That is plain and simple fact. Microfsoft's Direct X libaries are like everything else Microsoft does, bloated, cumbersome, and unstable. No opinion there, no attempt at a value judgement or anything else, just the way of the world today. Those that chose to continue to use those facilities do so with full knowledge of all their warts and pointing out those warts as a possible explanation of why some things cannot, nor likely will not ever be "fixed" has nothing at all to do with rudeness.

The WAY it crunches numbers has a GREAT DEAL to do with why many players get frustrated at why parts of the game do what it does and why so many of the support folks constantly tell these people that these kinds of "issues" are not ever going to be addressed because "it wasn't designed to do things that way". The WAY games do things make for a lot of very entertaining, interesting, and enlightening threads for the more technically savy. And since Matrix does not provide a "techie" forum, this is the only place those kinds of things can ever be discussed. If you're not a techie, don't read technically oriented posts.

(in reply to Caltone)

Post #: 33

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 9:07:19 PM

SunDevil_MatrixForum

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

Zoomie,

Thought you might want to read this

http://frogtoss.com/index.php?content=finishingafullgame&dir=journal

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 34

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 9:54:03 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

Zoomie,

Thought you might want to read this

http://frogtoss.com/index.php?content=finishingafullgame&dir=journal

Yes, a very good article, once you context it that he is talking more about mainstream 3D, FPS/RTS type games.

His first step is establishing the support routines for the accomplishment of the mundane. He misses a bit on those needing to be resuable, either as they stand or easily EXTENSIBLE. The idea is a good core library should be able to be used in titles 10 years from now.

His second step, build your art assets. Well, he's really talking about the level designs and video in FPS/RTS titles but it applies here, too. Alas, folks with good back end designs are usually not artists at all. Problem is artists are a touchy lot, and like to do stimulating work like anyone else. We heard from a Matrix GA here a while back claiming boredom at having to do WIN32 widget painting art.

Last step is where the time is supposed to be place. Not in mundane coding like playing sound files, calling drawing routines, capturing user input, saving games, handling mouse-clicks, etc....

In pitfall #1 he states :

"You need to get through technology development as quickly as possible. If you disagree with this statement, you care about something else besides finishing your game. "

What quicker way to get through the technology development quickly that use code somebody else a lot smarter, more experienced, and more highly tested than third party toolkits and class libraries to deal with such mundane crap as collecting data from the user via the UI. These kits are UBIQUITOUS. But, according to one of our friendly Matrix graphics guys, doing the graphical overlays for that is "boring". And he's entitled to have some fun on the job, too, right?

Pitfall #2 is the pipeline....collecting and developing the content. While he's talking about getting your music, artwork for your levels, level designers, etc...in this genre, in this game, in particular, he's probably talking about the OOB and accompanying component bitmaps... He calls it "pipeline bloat".

#3 is essentially a rant on how to make your lower level components RESUABLE by avoiding too much dependency. Nothing too cosmic there. If you are finding you are throwing away 80% of library code with each new game, well, you've skimped on Step 1 and proably fell into Pit #1 too much.

And #4 is why, if I ever get around to getting somewhere with my own efforts, it will be a re-make of something like North Atlantic '85 with 10-12 bases, a ahalf dozen aircraft types on each side and maybe a dozen or fewer ship classes, and no production, no visual or audio bells and whistles, bascially "not much".

About three years ago a two man team put out a very simplistic, bargain basement, WWII European theater turn based game. Used a basic WIN32 GUI not DirectX video or audio. Sold for something like $19.95 via download. Had an uncannily addictive game-play though. And you could play the entire main campaign in a weekend! Sold 75,000 copies in the first year.....got a 88 rating in PC gamer. I emailed the guys and asked them what they did and if they made any money, themselves off it. They used Visual C++ and MFC for the GUI, used "off-the-shelf" clip art for bitmaps and backgrounds, no digitized maps or anything, just played .wav files for sound, took only about 8 months to pump it out. They each claimed their take was over $100,000 EACH for 8 months of work.... (Is 10-15% of the gross a typcial "take" for the developers?....so ignorant about side of this business...) And they claim it more of hobby as each claimed to have a "day-job".

Don't know how truthful that was, but that's what I call an "Exploration Game"! Essentially they followed this article's formula to a "T". MFC was the Step1, technical foundation (someone else's expertise), public domain clipart the step 2 "art assets". And their efforts spent almost 100% on steo 3, a fun gameplay engine! And they avoid all the pitfals. And while almost everyone here would find that game "pathetic", it was a turnbase wargame, it sold a near six figure copy and actually made someone REAL money.

Lesson. Don't believe everything you are told.....on either side of an issue.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/2/2004 7:58:34 PM >

(in reply to SunDevil_MatrixForum)

Post #: 35

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:09:53 PM

Caltone

Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline

Well I still think you're rude. The folks at 2by3 have long been a quiet lot. They don't post a lot anywhere, never have. What we do know is that wargames are thier passion. We also know they consistently deliver great products to a niche market that would otherwise be overlooked.

I dunno, If I had spent years of my life developing something that delivered what I claimed it would, I just don't think I'd want to hear how I used obsolete methods to do it or how my skills were useless etc, etc etc. And to make it worse, have this done in my house.

It was clearly explained why we can't or won't see player defined upgrades earlier in this thread. It was a design decision. Did we really need to know it was due to a hard coded database structure that you consider out of touch?

One knock on us programmer types has been the way we interact with carbon based life forms. I have made an effort in my life to break that mold. Perhaps others could do the same.

_____________________________

"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 36

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:24:19 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

Did we really need to know it was due to a hard coded database structure that you consider out of touch?

Cal, just to point out to you ... it has nothing to down with a hard coded database structure, just as waypoints have nothing to do with a hard coded structure and as usual Zoomie the "programmer" speaks in total ignorance about stuff he knows nothing about.

Each upgrade path requires storage space. Each potential waypoint if they existed required storage space.

In Zoomies's world, you have have P4 3.4 Extreme's with 2 gigs of ram to run this on never mind the fact that the save game files are right on the borderline of being able to send them through the email systems out there, but of course Zoomie the "programmer" doesn't think about such practical matters because he is just that, a programmer.

Thats why the have designers and architects that instruct the programmers on what to do ... they are too busy staring at the trees they miss out on the forest.

(in reply to Caltone)

Post #: 37

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:27:36 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

Well I still think you're rude. The folks at 2by3 have long been a quiet lot. They don't post a lot anywhere, never have. What we do know is that wargames are thier passion. We also know they consistently deliver great products to a niche market that would otherwise be overlooked.

And I have stated otherwise where, exactly? Provide quote/link, please.

quote:

I dunno, If I had spent years of my life developing something that delivered what I claimed it would, I just don't think I'd want to hear how I used obsolete methods to do it or how my skills were useless etc, etc etc. And to make it worse, have this done in my house.

Whether someone want to listen to constructive criticism is personal choice. As you stated, the actual programmers never post here and doubt they even have the time to read here very much. I'm personally, ALWAYS open to criticism of my work and designs. We have a robust code and design review process in this company that is EXACTLY what this is. Others doing nothing but poking holes in everything you do and offerring suggestions for improvement. Good development doesn't happen in a vacuum of group-think. Welcome to an INDUSTRY STANDARD pracitce in most commercial software shops. And believe it or not, these guys, DO listen and DO change! A LOT!

quote:

It was clearly explained why we can't or won't see player defined upgrades earlier in this thread. It was a design decision. Did we really need to know it was due to a hard coded database structure that you consider out of touch?

Absolutely YES! There are quite number of posters that, indeed DO like to know WHY something are not easily doable. If it results in a constructive criticsim of techniques used in the development process maybe it will result in some reconsideration of basic design choices on the next title. And I'm not the only one who is critical of the underlieing design of this game. People have been critical of GG's programming style for over 10 years. Some of them even work for Matrix! If you doubt that, you haven't been around these forums very long.

quote:

One knock on us programmer types has been the way we interact with carbon based life forms. I have made an effort in my life to break that mold. Perhaps others could do the same.

Yea, like posting, interactively, to spirited threads without getting defensive about whatever you consider your "baby". One of the consistant criticisms the Matrix staff gets, in general, is how defensive they often get about a lot of things. Seems like that applies to some posters as well. If one can't take constructive criticism, tough, that's a personal problem, get over it.

(in reply to Caltone)

Post #: 38

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:31:21 PM

Arnir

Posts: 482
Joined: 10/12/2002
From: Alberta. In Texas.
Status: offline

Has anyone considered opening a game design issue thread here or in the General area to discuss these things? While a lot of this is (or maybe fascinating) I'm not sure if it always help address the threads in question in a constructive way.

ZOOMIE1980 and Mr. Frag, y'all really need to just ignore each other or fight a duel.

_____________________________

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 39

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:35:00 PM

SunDevil_MatrixForum

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

<-- Marvin Gaye's "Let's get it on" plays in the background -->

(in reply to Arnir)

Post #: 40

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:47:43 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

In Zoomies's world, you have have P4 3.4 Extreme's with 2 gigs of ram to run this on never mind the fact that the save game files are right on the borderline of being able to send them through the email systems out there, but of course Zoomie the "programmer" doesn't think about such practical matters because he is just that, a programmer.

Thats why the have designers and architects that instruct the programmers on what to do ... they are too busy staring at the trees they miss out on the forest.

And here is where you continue to display that you have NO IDEA about software design or ANYTHING I have ever stated concering possible future design suggestions that I or others with similar ideas have made. I have already generated SEVERAL design prototypes that handle MORE data, faster, with more design flexibility that run on computers with HALF the computing resources WitP's minimum spec have!!

Now read VERY......CAREFULLY..... WitP's 200MB RAM usage and 100% CPU utilization rates probably have VERY LITTLE to do with data manipulation. The entire database of WitP could fit into a 2-3MB memory cache, if that. It is the OTHER stuff that eats all the resources. I provided two REAL WORLD examples that can prove that. Data processing, transaction processing, is typically a very low memory and cpu intensive operation, by nature, unless all cached into memory, and even then, not that intensive. CPU intensive processing are processes like extensive floating point operations such as you find in high quality graphics rendering, not simple intergral based number crunching something like WitP does.

What Fraggo won't tell you, is I've actually seen GG code from 1983 Apple IIc games through PACWAR and WIR. I know EXACTLY HOW he does what he does. And from what those who work with him say all the time, he still pretty much does things the same way today. SO yes. I KNOW, in a general sense, HOW WitP tends to work under the covers, regardless of what this beta tester tells you. And yes, it uses a LOT of hard coded data, integer basedd fixed array data storage, written in old-style 'C' procedural techinique, and YES, that is the ROOT cause for a lot of difficulty in dealing with some of the user wishes, REGARDLESS of this beta tester THINKS he knows about anything.

And to Fraggo, I haven't written a line of source code much in over three years. I am a design engineer by trade that stays up on the latest in application programming techniques. My main tool at work is Visio and UML and ERD diagrams, not the VS IDE.. If I code much, it's as a hobby these days....

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 41

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:51:38 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Has anyone considered opening a game design issue thread here or in the General area to discuss these things? While a lot of this is (or maybe fascinating) I'm not sure if it always help address the threads in question in a constructive way.

ZOOMIE1980 and Mr. Frag, y'all really need to just ignore each other or fight a duel.

Been after Matrix to start a techie thread, but they never do. But plenty good ones out there. One was linked above. Seems like a very good one. Also a few good mailing lists on gnu.org. I've actually got some interest from a few in openning a turn based wargame development project under SourceForge.

(in reply to Arnir)

Post #: 42

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 10:55:20 PM

Caltone

Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

And I have stated otherwise where, exactly? Provide quote/link, please.

How about this one?

But GG is NOT a modern programmer, period. When he does do it he still still stuck in the hard coded, fixed array base, procedural world of 640K DOS. He wouldn't know an object from and elbow or C++ from Ada from Modula2 from Fortran, and forget any notion concerning modern techniques like the Standard Template Library, containers, counted "referenced" pointers, inheritance, polymorhpism, encapsulation, relational data modeling, data mining, etc.... He simply has never kept up. He might have been respectible at one time, his Apple IIc code was actually pretty clever at the time, but what was clever and cutting edge in 1989 has no relevance today.

Or maybe this one?

The hardest thing I do in my career is trying to keep up. Out of 40 hr work week, simply keeping up takes 25% of it. I don't think Mr Grigsby has ever bothered to keep up with that part of his skill set at all. And it shows, rather blatanty, in this latest title...

Well this one is nice too:

Which is his biggest problem. I have a LOT of GG's old source code from his games. Let's just say this, he'd never get a job offer here as a programmer....

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Whether someone want to listen to constructive criticism is personal choice. As you stated, the actual programmers never post here and doubt they even have the time to read here very much. I'm personally, ALWAYS open to criticism of my work and designs. We have a robust code and design review process in this company that is EXACTLY what this is. Others doing nothing but poking holes in everything you do and offerring suggestions for improvement. Good development doesn't happen in a vacuum of group-think. Welcome to an INDUSTRY STANDARD pracitce in most commercial software shops. And believe it or not, these guys, DO listen and DO change! A LOT!

Sounds like you guys have a jolly good ole time where you work. Must be nice to have a big shop. Guess what, most of us don't. 2by3 live in different cities for chrissakes. This game was programmed out of people's house's all the while changing diapers, yelling at the kids, yelling at the dog, answering the phone, cleaning house, etc. Matrix and 2by3 are not some huge corporate monsters with large budgets and fancy offices. These guys aren't getting rich on this. You realize they will probably sell around 10K-20K copies of this when its all said and done right? Let's put it this way, they ain't all driving Ferraris, eating caviar out of both hands, and washing it down with Dom Perignom. More like driving beaters, eating Chicken of the Sea, and washing it down with Mountain Dew.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Absolutely YES! There are quite number of posters that, indeed DO like to know WHY something are not easily doable. If it results in a constructive criticsim of techniques used in the development process maybe it will result in some reconsideration of basic design choices on the next title. And I'm not the only one who is critical of the underlieing design of this game. People have been critical of GG's programming style for over 10 years. Some of them even work for Matrix! If you doubt that, you haven't been around these forums very long.

I re registered in Sep '01 and have been around here since the start. If your handle is a clue, I'm 20 years older than you and have played PC wargames since my C64. First language I ever learned was COBOL. We used punch cards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Yea, like posting, interactively, to spirited threads without getting defensive about whatever you consider your "baby". One of the consistant criticisms the Matrix staff gets, in general, is how defensive they often get about a lot of things. Seems like that applies to some posters as well. If one can't take constructive criticism, tough, that's a personal problem, get over it.

If you don't get defensive over your app's then I find it hard to believe you're a coder. Additionally has stated before, they don't post a lot, never have. You'll see Joel and Keith from time to time, but Gary never. Let the man have his privacy, hell let them all have it.

Oh, and telling someone they can't get a job because they have archaic skills or outdated practices is rude friend, its not constructive. And who are you to define what skills they need? As its been stated before, these guys have a wargaming resume, you do not. Nothing succeeds like success. They have produced games that countless fans enjoy from around the world. You on the other hand have produced some questionable caliber threads on THIER boards and claims of super secret work in the DOD. That and 10 dollars will buy you a coffee at Starbucks.

_____________________________

"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 43

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 11:28:28 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

And I have stated otherwise where, exactly? Provide quote/link, please.

How about this one?

But GG is NOT a modern programmer, period. When he does do it he still still stuck in the hard coded, fixed array base, procedural world of 640K DOS. He wouldn't know an object from and elbow or C++ from Ada from Modula2 from Fortran, and forget any notion concerning modern techniques like the Standard Template Library, containers, counted "referenced" pointers, inheritance, polymorhpism, encapsulation, relational data modeling, data mining, etc.... He simply has never kept up. He might have been respectible at one time, his Apple IIc code was actually pretty clever at the time, but what was clever and cutting edge in 1989 has no relevance today.

Or maybe this one?

The hardest thing I do in my career is trying to keep up. Out of 40 hr work week, simply keeping up takes 25% of it. I don't think Mr Grigsby has ever bothered to keep up with that part of his skill set at all. And it shows, rather blatanty, in this latest title...

Well this one is nice too:

Which is his biggest problem. I have a LOT of GG's old source code from his games. Let's just say this, he'd never get a job offer here as a programmer....

And that has exactly WHAT to do with the Price of Rice in China? In otherwords that has WHAT to do with the quality of Matrix game titles in general? I have done nothing but praise the quality of the stuff I have bought here, and that GG has produced. Just because I find a LOT of fault with his developent methods does not in ANY detract from enjoyment of the end result. I buy almost NOTHING that does not have GG in the credits list.

quote:

Sounds like you guys have a jolly good ole time where you work. Must be nice to have a big shop. Guess what, most of us don't. 2by3 live in different cities for chrissakes. This game was programmed out of people's house's all the while changing diapers, yelling at the kids, yelling at the dog, answering the phone, cleaning house, etc. Matrix and 2by3 are not some huge corporate monsters with large budgets and fancy offices. These guys aren't getting rich on this. You realize they will probably sell around 10K-20K copies of this when its all said and done right? Let's put it this way, they ain't all driving Ferraris, eating caviar out of both hands, and washing it down with Dom Perignom. More like driving beaters, eating Chicken of the Sea, and washing it down with Mountain Dew.

Ahh. the old poor-mouth approach. Once again, criticism of design decisions made early on have exactly WHAT to do with personal life-style choice, or choice of work environment again? This entire rant is completely pointless and has nothing to do with anything as far as I can tell? What drinking Mtn Dew have to do with making questionable design decisions? I reserve the right to question anything about a game, including it's underlieing design, and when answered, reserve the right to comment and suggest. People do it to me all the time, and I don't take it personally. Nor should you, or anyone else.

quote:

I re registered in Sep '01 and have been around here since the start. If your handle is a clue, I'm 20 years older than you and have played PC wargames since my C64. First language I ever learned was COBOL. We used punch cards.

I'm 47 years old. Played my first games on a Kaypro kit I built myself. Played my forst GG title on an Apple IIC in 1984. I've been a professional programmer and software developer for DOD and the Private sector now for about 20 years. Been a project manager/design engineer now for over 10. I'm one of the original programmers/designers of the wxWidgets cross-platform toolkit and helped, as a contractor, write some of the original MFC codebase from Microsoft. I've actually written turn base wargame excercises for the Pentagon. Been there, done that, for a LOOONNNGGGG time.

As a side light, did anyone realize that one of the seed ideas for Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising was GG's North Atlantic '86 game? Thought some might find that tidbit, interesting....

quote:

If you don't get defensive over your app's then I find it hard to believe you're a coder. Additionally has stated before, they don't post a lot, never have. You'll see Joel and Keith from time to time, but Gary never. Let the man have his privacy, hell let them all have it.

And I'm impinging on their privacy just how, again? This is a PUBLIC forum, in case you have forgotten. Am I hacking into their private email or computers to post clandestine messages to them on their computers? They don't read here very much because they are mostly too busy getting their work done, I presume.

quote:

Oh, and telling someone they can't get a job because they have archaic skills or outdated practices is rude friend, its not constructive. And who are you to define what skills they need? As its been stated before, these guys have a wargaming resume, you do not. Nothing succeeds like success. They have produced games that countless fans enjoy from around the world. You on the other hand have produced some questionable caliber threads on THIER boards and claims of super secret work in the DOD. That and 10 dollars will buy you a coffee at Starbucks.

I "told" GG that? Since when? Does he read the forum? Does he post to the forum? Did I respond to a post he made? I have conversed with him, though, many, many years ago in the past. I DO know how he programs, though. And I DO know the job market today. Not a lot of possiblities for a person with his skills these days. No, I'm not a game programmer because, as a rule, they don't make much money and my lifestyle requires, unfortunately for me, a LOT of that, especially now. But I see a lot possiblities in this genre that aren't pursued because of the economic realities of those in the business. It's kind of hard to "self-actualize" when you struggling to just eat.... I can appreciate that.

Someone, somewhere along the line, will indeed embrace new techniques of wargaming development. It's not so much that what we've seen lacks quality, its more of what could be IF better underlieing techniques were employed and what MIGHT be possible, WHEN it happens.

But back to the main thread.....removing hard coded A/C upgrades from the game is a DESIGN level issue from what we are told, and not likely to be "fixed" any time soon. The rest is more of a WHY it MAY be that way. And posted because some wargamers have grown tired of game producers simply feeding people "we can't becasue God made it that way". Some of us want to know "what way did God make it?" so we can plead our case for why "God should reconsider the next time around".

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 8/2/2004 9:37:40 PM >

(in reply to Caltone)

Post #: 44

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/2/2004 11:34:47 PM

Caltone

Posts: 651
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC USA
Status: offline

< Message edited by Caltone -- 8/2/2004 9:52:17 PM >

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(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 45

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/3/2004 3:57:07 AM

GoofTrooper

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/22/2004
From: USA
Status: offline

To answer the question of the poster, the A6me doesn't upgrade to the A6m3 for historical reasons, as already stated. IIRC the A6m3 was a shorter ranged (and higher speed) land based version. It was used on CVLs as they weren't inteneded for CV vs CV fights which didn't require the range for escort missions and hit was faster making it a better choice for CAP.

GoofTrooper

(in reply to MadDawg)

Post #: 46

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/3/2004 4:12:56 AM

PeteG662

Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline

Getting back to the original question...since it is hard coded to upgrade only to a M5 and the M5 not available for the scenario try the workaround of disbanding the group into another group with an M3 upgrade path if you truly wants M3s. This is a similar problem to the B-18 Bolo issue when we first got the game out and the upgrade paths of some groups there.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 47

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/3/2004 5:05:31 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Getting back to the original question...since it is hard coded to upgrade only to a M5 and the M5 not available for the scenario try the workaround of disbanding the group into another group with an M3 upgrade path if you truly wants M3s. This is a similar problem to the B-18 Bolo issue when we first got the game out and the upgrade paths of some groups there.

Can you cover that one again? I assume that's the Bolo wanting to upgrade to B-17C's but no B-17C's are in the pool or being made, and the B-17C units I had got destroyed on Clark.... I assume you mean disbanding it into a B-18 unit that upgrade to a B-25????

(in reply to PeteG662)

Post #: 48

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/3/2004 5:15:11 AM

Drongo

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Getting back to the original question...since it is hard coded to upgrade only to a M5 and the M5 not available for the scenario try the workaround of disbanding the group into another group with an M3 upgrade path if you truly wants M3s. This is a similar problem to the B-18 Bolo issue when we first got the game out and the upgrade paths of some groups there.

IIRC, there are no air units with an upgrade path to the A6M3 (not in scen 15 anyway).

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drink more beer.

(in reply to PeteG662)

Post #: 49

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3? - 8/3/2004 5:21:50 AM

PeteG662

Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline

The B-18 thing is under a separate thread on here somewhere now.....just a minor workaround in regards to the different upgrade paths and how to upgrade some of the more obscure paths into something usable.

In regards to this post, the original poster wanted to know why he couldn't upgrade a group of M2s to anything other than M5s which were not in the scenario! The upgrade path for the scenario was his problem. Just expressing the workaround like the B-18 to see if he could work that into his M2 upgrade plan.

(in reply to Drongo)

Post #: 50

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