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RE: Best way to play each power - 12/7/2006 7:06:38 PM   
megalomania2003

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: McGuire

quote:

ORIGINAL: megalomania2003
The price does not need to be Prussian provinces, but if the offer is help in a scandinavian campaign this can be done by Russia without help. The swedish army or navy is not that large.

Help from Austria is an option, money from Great Britain would also be nice.


Huh??
I'm a bit confused! Are you thinking about GB money for a RU campain for scandinavia?

I don't see that'll happen! RU wants it - GB wants it, too! But what has PR to offer for RU help against FR! Poland, help in scandinavia,... Anything else I haven't thought of??

I am talking about GB money to Ru for a campaign against Fr (not scandinavia, can handle that alone)

And if PR offers help against Fr in exchange for Sweden then what minors will that leave Ru? - none as far as I can see. If I am Ru I will quite simply state that sweden is mine, GB can take Denmark and Pr German minors - provided Pr beat Fr.
AND should GB and Pr not be reasonably in this respect I would ask Fr if he would help me gain Poland.

(in reply to McGuire)
Post #: 181
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/7/2006 7:13:19 PM   
megalomania2003

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

My original train of thought was in the event of a Pr/Fr Allaince.
Usually, in the games I have played, Russia's first move was to take out Sw and if Br has not taken Denmark they take that next. Meanwhile Pr is busy grabbing up germanic principalities and possibly helping out in pounding AU.
In order to win the game you need PP so you can rack up VP and minor neutrals only get you so far. So, around spring of 06 say, Fr lends assistance to a PR invasion of RU, to gain PP for PR. Then as a peace condition, PR can demand SW or maybe some of RU's polish provences.
There are two places on the board where I have a tough time finding reason for the French army to go, that is Spain (as another has already pointed out) and Russia, especially if FR can get Pr and/or AU to do it for them.

And how will you survive when Napoleon comes running for you and the other camp (Ru, Au, Gb goes after you next - you won't have any allies if you are doing this). Remember that everybody will be able to figure out how many points you need - and how far you have to be beaten down.

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 182
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/7/2006 8:25:12 PM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		First off this is a hypothetical and quite a few variables would have to go the right way for it to work.
If in the event I am FR and have PR as an ally but don't have AU then 05 will be spent pounding AU and by 06 will be on an inforced peace.
In 06, GB will only at a max be able to add 8 factors per quarter to their army (+32 factors) where FR can add 24 per quarter (+92 factors). So all GB will be able to do is demonstrate with their fleet.
As FR I would make the russian front mostly a PR effort with maybe one fr corp and leader on loan to PR and pick up the supply cost.
Of course non of this can happen unless you have a greedy russian.
No one country can defeat FR on it's own they have to have freinds and this is what the greedy russian does not seem to understand.
AU/PR together, I do not think have a very good chance of beating FR on their own. GB help is nice but does not put enough boots on the ground.
If you have AU/PR/RU together at the same time, then you have a good chance of beating FR.
As PR this is what I would be explaining to RU if they are damanding payment from me in exchange for fighting FR. Because as you have pointed out, unless AU/PR/RU stand together, FR will win! All PR would be able to do is go for glory because you are not likely to win on VP.


< Message edited by morvwilson -- 12/7/2006 8:54:54 PM >

(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 183
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/7/2006 9:03:34 PM   
megalomania2003

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		In the beginning of the game Pr and Au does have a supirior (to Fr) force. More guards, cavalry, infantry and income (with GB) and no navy to defend. Russian help tips the balance even further, but they do have the advantage to begin with (if not at war with Ru or Ty).

As I see it in this game you should ask for something if you do an action, which are a bigger benefit to someone else than yourself - this is not charity. And Fr is a bigger problem for Au and Pr and even GB than for Ru, so if Ru fights Fr at the beginning he should be payed for it.

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 184
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/7/2006 9:16:22 PM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		Yes, AU and PR have a larger army the FR at the beginning. But FR has advantages in morale and movement. And lets not forget those HIGH quality leaders PR starts with in 05! So the best leader for AU/PR alliance is deffinitely Charles. He is a good leader but inferior to Nappy.
As FR I would send Davout or Soult to take care of PR and Nappy with most of the army against Charles.
Superior numbers in a fight is very nice but you have to break morale and that can be hard to accomplish against one of Nappies outflank chits!
As AU or PR I would try to hit FR supply chain after they are strung out and hit him with you six best corps under Charles after a few attrit rolls.
As I see it that is the best they can do.

(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 185
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/7/2006 9:18:21 PM   
morvwilson


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Status: offline 		I guess the main point is that Fr must first be taken down a few notches befor AU/PR/RU can start doing something else.

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 186
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 12:00:43 AM   
megalomania2003

 

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Status: offline 		Why only take 6 corps under Charles? He is equally good against Napoleon with up to 12 corps.

And you are saying that you would send Davout and Soult against Pr while Napoleon tool care of Charles, but what if Pr and Au stays together. Do not forget that they have GB to finance the war and threaten the Fr navy. I have seen a Au+Pr+GB alliance beat Fr - with a competent player controlling Fr

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 187
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 1:34:05 AM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		Yes, I could see that happening, when the chits are picked and the dice start rolling, almost anything can happen!
I have seen Nappy miss an outflank and Kushanz Ali make it (both with devistating effects).

Okay, I am ready for a game now!!!!!!!!!

(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 188
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 1:43:04 AM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		Btw how would you handle playing TU?

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 189
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 5:29:38 AM   
ktotwf

 

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Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		What are the chances that a well played France beats a well played Austria/Prussia alliance? I have heard anywhere from 50/50 to a probable French victory. It seems more historically accurate that France would be able to beat any two nations in the game, but not any 3.

Aka, Pr/Au loses, Pr/Au/Rus dances on Napoleon's grave.

< Message edited by ktotwf -- 12/8/2006 6:08:55 AM >

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 190
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 6:34:01 AM   
morvwilson


Posts: 510
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From: California
Status: offline 		I checked some of the numbers and what I came up with, assuming this battle happens before the 6/05 turn (before any enonomic phase).
PR - 80I, 16C, 3G first through fifth corps along with PR guard corps(6)
AU - 75I, 7C, 5G first through fifth corps along with first grenadier corps(6)
Total - 155I, 23C, 8G all placed under the command of Charles as megalomania2003 suggested.

FR - 100I, 17C, 5G  first through fifth corps plus imp. guard corps (6)

These numbers are a little optomistic for both sides but it looks like a 3 - 2 advantage for AU/PR but a slight moral advantage and +1 drm for FR

I would hate to bet my house on the outcome of the chit pick and die roll!

(in reply to ktotwf)
Post #: 191
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 6:42:29 AM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
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From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Tense times indeed.

_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

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Post #: 192
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 1:11:21 PM   
yammahoper

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline 		FR needs to play off the nations against each other and has a lot to offer in the process. The typical approach I have seen is for FR to offer italy to SP/AU while it smashes PR.With an enforced peace against PR, it turns on AU. If FR can continue this nasty cycle, victory is easy. Eventually it is the RU and/or GB player that forms the coaltition needed to break FR, though one of the fantastic aspects of EiA is the unpredictable paths that can lead there...or not lead there!

In the computer game, one of the intereactions with the AI I am very eager to see is how it handles mutual DOWS on minor nations. In the board game, all majpr powers who declared war have to decide to continue the war or cease, and if both nations continue, then they default to declaring war on each other. Reading a person, or even a short diplomatic exchange between players avoids many wars in the board game, but I doubt the AI is going to want to talk. This single aspect may well change the entire run of the game from a traditional table top session.

Still, if anyone can create the above discussed Rusian/Spain/France alliance in the computer game, I would love to hear the outcome. Such an alliance would be perfect for invading GB.

yamma



_____________________________

...nothing is more chaotic than a battle won...

(in reply to sol_invictus)
Post #: 193
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 6:51:28 PM   
morvwilson


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Status: offline 		Yes, I agree!
(Picture Marlon Brando with cotton stuffed into his mouth) "Make AU/PR an offer they can't refuse!"

(Now picture James Earl Jones voice) "They will turn to the dark side or die!"

As PR or AU I would seriously consider these offers if RU whines about money and is not willing to stand with me. Russia's best long term interest lies in the defeat of France!

(in reply to yammahoper)
Post #: 194
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 8:40:10 PM   
megalomania2003

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Yes best term interest, but as Fr is a greater problem for others why not demand something for it - and it is GB whom is going to pay, not Pr and Au. If GB is going to finance Au and Pr war against Fr (usually happens) then why should he not pay other parts of the coalition?

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 195
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/8/2006 11:51:23 PM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		Yes, if I am AU/PR and BR wants to pay RU and it does not affect me, thats fine.
But, as BR you have to be careful who you give money to. As BR I would have a hard time giving money to RU since financially, they are in pretty good shape. PR on the other hand is not and you don't want them going to the dark side or allow FR to set up the two to three year cycle of defeat in detail for AU/PR that Yamma talked about. Now if RU is in a pickle and needs help then GB should help, especially if it is a pickle concerning the FR.

How do you keep a crab in a bucket? Put two other crabs in with the first. The two on the bottom will keep pulling the one on top down. This game seems to work in simular fashion. He who has the most PP needs to be jumped on by the others.

(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 196
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/9/2006 2:21:03 AM   
megalomania2003

 

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Status: offline 		So as GB you want to pay Pr (or/and Au) to fight Fr - and not turn to the dark side - but not pay Ru whom is less affected by Fr running wild.

I can understand the reluctance to pay Ru but if the Ru player simply helps the alliance because they ask nicely he is not going win the game. And if the threat is - if you are not on our side we will let the Fr side win the reply should be - So what.

Please note that I am not talking about Ru helping Fr directly (if no incentive is offered), simply about Ru staying neutral.

and if Ru is the crab climbing out I said nothing about Ru demanding to be allowed to win (not that that demand would do anything good)

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 197
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/9/2006 2:50:11 AM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		GB should not have to pay AU or PR to fight Fr but assist in the costs more with PR than AU. Pr starts in 1805 getting $48 per quarter (including trade), AU $83 (also including trade), RU $88 (incl trade). All three armies are close to the same size. Which one do you think will have money problems first?

GB needs to be careful where they put their money, it needs to go where it will have the best effect. (I like the bounty idea!)

Don't forget in the senario previously where AU/PR alliance outnumbered the FR by 3-2, not only is the future of AU/PR on the line but so is RU. (Eleven factors of cav could make a big difference!) If the FR win, they will have the germanic powers off their back for two to three years. In that time if you were FR what would you do?

(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 198
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/10/2006 8:21:46 AM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		I tried the AU/PR vs FR battle mentioned above. 155I, 23C, 7G in 12 corp for AU/PR under Charles. 100I, 17C, 5G under Nappy with Ney to handle cav. persuit. I had FR as the attacker and picked chits at random.

First try, both sides pick outflank. Full three rounds of combat, AU/PR breaks in third round. No cav. persuit, FR lost too much moral.
Losses, AU/PR - 18I, FR - 40I.

Second try, FR picks assault, AU/PR picks outflank. First round of combat, AU/PR pinning force breaks. No outflank arrives.
FR looses 10I
AU/PR looses 17I, plus persuit loss of 20 (60I)

Third try, FR picks probe, AU/PR picks counter attack. Both sides bread in third round.
FR looses 51I
AU/PR looses 20I

Fourth try, FR picks escalated assault, AU/PR picks counter attack. Both break in third round of combat.
FR looses 51I
AU/PR looses 38I

Looks like a bloody day! But could be exploited if a russian army is nearby.
Anyone else try this?

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 199
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/10/2006 8:46:46 AM   
ktotwf

 

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Status: offline 		So, it looks like a bloody French victory, or a draw.

How many men does a factor represent? 1000 I would suppose.

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 200
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/10/2006 9:58:27 AM   
morvwilson


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From: California
Status: offline 		I think one factor is supposed to be one regiment. The number of men in one regiment depends on what army you are in. 800 to 1000 for most but Tolstoy in "War and Peace" talked about regiments as strong as 3000 men ,Col. Bulkonsky's(sp?) regiment for example.

(in reply to ktotwf)
Post #: 201
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/10/2006 1:15:04 PM   
megalomania2003

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

I tried the AU/PR vs FR battle mentioned above. 155I, 23C, 7G in 12 corp for AU/PR under Charles. 100I, 17C, 5G under Nappy with Ney to handle cav. persuit. I had FR as the attacker and picked chits at random.

First try, both sides pick outflank. Full three rounds of combat, AU/PR breaks in third round. No cav. persuit, FR lost too much moral.
Losses, AU/PR - 18I, FR - 40I.

Second try, FR picks assault, AU/PR picks outflank. First round of combat, AU/PR pinning force breaks. No outflank arrives.
FR looses 10I
AU/PR looses 17I, plus persuit loss of 20 (60I)

Third try, FR picks probe, AU/PR picks counter attack. Both sides bread in third round.
FR looses 51I
AU/PR looses 20I

Fourth try, FR picks escalated assault, AU/PR picks counter attack. Both break in third round of combat.
FR looses 51I
AU/PR looses 38I

Looks like a bloody day! But could be exploited if a russian army is nearby.
Anyone else try this?

This seems to be the probable outcome, but if you are figuring whom would win the war then you have to take a second battle, this time with Au+Pr as attacker and with the reduced forces. That second battle can hurt the Fr a lot.

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 202
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/10/2006 11:29:26 PM   
argaur


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From: Spain
Status: offline 		1 factor represents 1000-2000 men

_____________________________


"... tell the Emperor that I am facing Russians.
If they had been Prussians, I'd have taken the
position long ago."
- Marshal Ney, 1813

(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 203
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/11/2006 4:35:08 PM   
Joisey

 

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From: Montgomery, New Jersey
Status: offline 		I don't think Outflank is a realistic pick for the Au/Pr.  And nobody but the Turks pick Escalated Anything.  I'd eliminate the dumb chit picks and re-run the simulation.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to argaur)
Post #: 204
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/11/2006 6:32:12 PM   
ktotwf

 

Posts: 182
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Status: offline 		It was in random...it wasn't that he actually picked them himself.

Plus, if he chose chits then he might be seen as giving an advantage to either side, and thus ruining the experiment.

(in reply to Joisey)
Post #: 205
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/11/2006 7:23:59 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Maybe if the obvious bad chit choices for each side were eliminated and only reasonable ones left in the random selection, it would give a more probable outcome.

_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to ktotwf)
Post #: 206
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/11/2006 10:42:00 PM   
megalomania2003

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joisey

I don't think Outflank is a realistic pick for the Au/Pr.  And nobody but the Turks pick Escalated Anything.  I'd eliminate the dumb chit picks and re-run the simulation.

With Charles outflank is a realistic option. And esc. counter is realistic, against a Fr Probe (a good choice from Fr) it can win the day.

(in reply to Joisey)
Post #: 207
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/11/2006 11:47:38 PM   
morvwilson


Posts: 510
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		I agree with megalomania2003 here. I did it ranomly. I only eliminated repeat combinations. Personally outflank is one of my favorite picks especially with leaders like Charles or Nappy.
And you can't eliminated certain chit picks just because they look stupid. I have seen plenty of stupid chit picks in real game play! Some of them done by me!
The experiment I did had the opposing armies too strong. What is the way you would set up AU/PR for the opening of the 05 grand campaign (jan 05) assuming AU/PR/BR are allied and at war with France?

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 12/12/2006 12:19:12 AM >

(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 208
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/12/2006 12:24:14 AM   
Murat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

I agree with megalomania2003 here. I did it ranomly. I only eliminated repeat combinations. Personally outflank is one of my favorite picks especially with leaders like Charles or Nappy.
And you can't eliminated certain chit picks just because they look stupid. I have seen plenty of stupid chit picks in real game play! Some of them done by me!
The experiment I did had the opposing armies too strong. What is the way you would set up AU/PR for the opening of the 05 grand campaign (jan 05) assuming AU/PR/BR are allied and at war with France?


Glad you said this :) If the Praustrians tried this I would let them spend all their $ on supply and wait for the turn where they have to forage before attacking.

If Praustria I tend to wait in the East and watch the French to see where they are going. It allows me to conserve $ for when I need to pay supply and it causes France to make the move. Admittedly it allows them to pick a battlefield but I am free to ignore their chosen location and group up in one of my own. Regardless, for the 1st few months France has the advantage of avoiding battle until it is convenient.

(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 209
RE: Best way to play each power - 12/12/2006 1:47:17 AM   
morvwilson


Posts: 510
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		Doesn't a delay play into FR hands? As FR I would welcome you staying in the east because my first builds are usually guard and art. I would not mind waiting until Sep. or Oct. for my first real fight. In the mean time I would probably grab Berg, Duchies and Hesse depending on PR/AU dispositions.
My normal FR disposition is as follows, Holland corps and 13I, Holland fleet and FR fleet in Amsterdam. 11I each in Bayonne and Perpignon. 20I in Milan along with First CAV(7cav) corps and Davout, 15I in Hanover along with Second CAV corps(7cav) and Soult. 20I in Mainz. 20I in Strausbourg along with Imperial guard(5g, 3cav), Nappy and Ney. 25I in Paris.
If PR/AU sat around in the east, I would wait for as long as they were willing so I could build up the Guard and ART corps.

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 12/12/2006 8:28:42 AM >

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 210
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