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RE: Best way to play each power - 12/12/2006 6:37:02 PM

Joisey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

I agree with megalomania2003 here. I did it ranomly. I only eliminated repeat combinations. Personally outflank is one of my favorite picks especially with leaders like Charles or Nappy.
And you can't eliminated certain chit picks just because they look stupid. I have seen plenty of stupid chit picks in real game play! Some of them done by me!
The experiment I did had the opposing armies too strong. What is the way you would set up AU/PR for the opening of the 05 grand campaign (jan 05) assuming AU/PR/BR are allied and at war with France?

If Au, Pr, And BR all combine their available corps in one stack, that's too many corps for Charles to reliably pull off an outflank maneuver. For the sake of this discussion, I've always assumed that the coalition powers stack together to take on France. Otherwise, you are going to get defeated piecemeal.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

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Post #: 211

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/12/2006 7:57:23 PM

morvwilson

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Outflank is unreliable and risky by definition!
I have seen both Wellington and Nappy miss both outflank rolls and I once succeeded with an outflank roll using Hoenloe(sp?).

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Post #: 212

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/12/2006 8:10:20 PM

Murat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

Doesn't a delay play into FR hands? As FR I would welcome you staying in the east because my first builds are usually guard and art. I would not mind waiting until Sep. or Oct. for my first real fight. In the mean time I would probably grab Berg, Duchies and Hesse depending on PR/AU dispositions.
My normal FR disposition is as follows, Holland corps and 13I, Holland fleet and FR fleet in Amsterdam. 11I each in Bayonne and Perpignon. 20I in Milan along with First CAV(7cav) corps and Davout, 15I in Hanover along with Second CAV corps(7cav) and Soult. 20I in Mainz. 20I in Strausbourg along with Imperial guard(5g, 3cav), Nappy and Ney. 25I in Paris.
If PR/AU sat around in the east, I would wait for as long as they were willing so I could build up the Guard and ART corps.

If you delay to the 1st econ phase the only thing coming online is militia and Britain (and maybe Russia) can supply the necessary $ for a supplied campaign instead of a foraged one allowing you to keep your Praustrian superior numbers and depending on French militia use maybe even close the morale gap.

(in reply to morvwilson)

Post #: 213

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/12/2006 8:33:57 PM

morvwilson

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The point I was trying to make is that time is on FR side. Why should I chase down the AU/PR if their armies are hanging out in the east of their countries? Why not stay at home, save the $ and wait on Guard and ART and then chase them down?
As far as militia goes, as FR I don't usually use them to fill out corps strength but for garrison duty.

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Post #: 214

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/12/2006 10:26:11 PM

megalomania2003

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

The point I was trying to make is that time is on FR side. Why should I chase down the AU/PR if their armies are hanging out in the east of their countries? Why not stay at home, save the $ and wait on Guard and ART and then chase them down?
As far as militia goes, as FR I don't usually use them to fill out corps strength but for garrison duty.

And for that exact reason an Au/Pr offensive (after GB have supplied the cash) makes sense. Fr has to defend in Germany/Italy or lose the resources those minors provide. So the decisive battle(s) FOR THE FIRST WAR should happen before the guard comes online.

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Post #: 215

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 1:58:37 AM

morvwilson

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I definitely agree that an PR/AU offensive prior to 9/05 makes sense. But let me ask again, how would you deploy AU/PR/GB assuming an alliance and at war with FR for Jan 05?

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Post #: 216

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 2:19:35 AM

Joisey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

The point I was trying to make is that time is on FR side. Why should I chase down the AU/PR if their armies are hanging out in the east of their countries? Why not stay at home, save the $ and wait on Guard and ART and then chase them down?
As far as militia goes, as FR I don't usually use them to fill out corps strength but for garrison duty.

I build artillery last. There's not much bang for the buck there. Far better to get the cavalry built out first as it also requires a long lead time.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

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Post #: 217

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 6:25:39 AM

morvwilson

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The thing is any early battle is likely to employ about 1/3 of the numbers I tried in the experiment on the previous page. I like inflicting an additional 3-12 factors on top of anything else that happens.
But still, I have read about an offensive by AU/PR but very little in the way of details. How would you deploy AU/PR?

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Post #: 218

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 8:02:13 AM

Sardonic

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Arty Corps is free casualties for NOTHING. It is a great item.

It can if lucky subrtract 15 points off the enemy side.
That is nothing to laugh at.

Flanking is a great move. Very risky. So risky that it is the Flea Flicker of EIA.

However, it is always there, lurking in the background.

Just like Accelerated Assault. Sure hate to pick the wrong one.

I have seen the Turks WIN doing that. It was ugly, with all that Cav.

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Post #: 219

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 9:58:44 AM

Murat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Arty Corps is free casualties for NOTHING. It is a great item.

It can if lucky subrtract 15 points off the enemy side.
That is nothing to laugh at.

Flanking is a great move. Very risky. So risky that it is the Flea Flicker of EIA.

However, it is always there, lurking in the background.

Just like Accelerated Assault. Sure hate to pick the wrong one.

I have seen the Turks WIN doing that. It was ugly, with all that Cav.

I was afraid of seeing your name on another post here. Art cannot get 15 out of the way if they are lucky, there are only 10 factors. Best they can do is 3. Cav can do MUCH more than that in cav pursuit. Outflank (not flanking) is only risky for certain leaders. Escalated Assault (not accelerated) is also risky only in certain situations. And yes, Turkey can afford higher risk moves at times due to the feudal nature of their army.

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Post #: 220

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 10:37:32 AM

morvwilson

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Arty Corps is free casualties for NOTHING. It is a great item.

It can if lucky subrtract 15 points off the enemy side.
That is nothing to laugh at.

Flanking is a great move. Very risky. So risky that it is the Flea Flicker of EIA.

However, it is always there, lurking in the background.

Just like Accelerated Assault. Sure hate to pick the wrong one.

I have seen the Turks WIN doing that. It was ugly, with all that Cav.

I was afraid of seeing your name on another post here. Art cannot get 15 out of the way if they are lucky, there are only 10 factors. Best they can do is 3. Cav can do MUCH more than that in cav pursuit. Outflank (not flanking) is only risky for certain leaders. Escalated Assault (not accelerated) is also risky only in certain situations. And yes, Turkey can afford higher risk moves at times due to the feudal nature of their army.

Russian ART corp is 10, French is 12. the max casualties inflicted is 25% per round. So, for the Ru that is up to 9 extra factors kia in a battle, for the FR it is 12. Plus, ART only costs $7 per factor where CAV costs $15. Cav can inflict massive casualties, I have seen it done. But first you have to break your enemy. ART inflicts casualties no matter what and if I remember right, takes effect prior to combat results.

ps. It has been my experience that TU has to take risks that I normally would not take with any other power because their army does not have the moral to pull off an attack like probe or eschelon. They have to break their enemy fast or they are screwed!

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 12/13/2006 11:02:58 AM >

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Post #: 221

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 12:34:52 PM

Sardonic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Arty Corps is free casualties for NOTHING. It is a great item.

It can if lucky subrtract 15 points off the enemy side.
That is nothing to laugh at.

Flanking is a great move. Very risky. So risky that it is the Flea Flicker of EIA.

However, it is always there, lurking in the background.

Just like Accelerated Assault. Sure hate to pick the wrong one.

I have seen the Turks WIN doing that. It was ugly, with all that Cav.

I was afraid of seeing your name on another post here. Art cannot get 15 out of the way if they are lucky, there are only 10 factors. Best they can do is 3. Cav can do MUCH more than that in cav pursuit. Outflank (not flanking) is only risky for certain leaders. Escalated Assault (not accelerated) is also risky only in certain situations. And yes, Turkey can afford higher risk moves at times due to the feudal nature of their army.

We all have opinions, do we not?
So you agree, except for the words I used. =)

I recall one game where the entire Austrian army attacked one lone feudal korp.
Austrians picked Escalated Assault because they wanted it dead fast.
Turks picked 'Defend'

Seemed like a good bet. Until that really bad Tu leader rolled a '1' and reacted the entire TU army into the battle.
The cav pursuit destroyed the entire Austrian army.

Leasons for posterity.

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 222

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 5:46:38 PM

morvwilson

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"Seemed like a good bet. Until that really bad Tu leader rolled a '1' and reacted the entire TU army into the battle.
The cav pursuit destroyed the entire Austrian army. "

That realy bad TU leader would be The Grand Vazier, but armies don't react in EiA. I think that is a Civil War rule. But don't worry too much about it, you would not be the first to mix up game rules. I have done it a few time myself.

Megalomania2003 (or anyone who wants to try), I have my copy of the map mounted to plexiglass and would like to try your AU/PR 05 offensive strategy out and of course, let everyone know how it goes. Maybe we both can learn something new. (I find in solo play when I negotiate with myself I get too many stupid answers!

)I think this would be a more acurate experiment than the last one I tried. I will put your deployment down on the map in grease pencil, that way it is always set up but does not have to be on a table. So, assume RU/SP/TU are neutral, AU/PR/GB are allied and at war with FR.

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 12/13/2006 5:57:50 PM >

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Post #: 223

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 6:25:04 PM

Joisey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

"Seemed like a good bet. Until that really bad Tu leader rolled a '1' and reacted the entire TU army into the battle.
The cav pursuit destroyed the entire Austrian army. "

That realy bad TU leader would be The Grand Vazier, but armies don't react in EiA. I think that is a Civil War rule. But don't worry too much about it, you would not be the first to mix up game rules. I have done it a few time myself.

Megalomania2003 (or anyone who wants to try), I have my copy of the map mounted to plexiglass and would like to try your AU/PR 05 offensive strategy out and of course, let everyone know how it goes. Maybe we both can learn something new. (I find in solo play when I negotiate with myself I get too many stupid answers!)I think this would be a more acurate experiment than the last one I tried. I will put your deployment down on the map in grease pencil, that way it is always set up but does not have to be on a table. So, assume RU/SP/TU are neutral, AU/PR/GB are allied and at war with FR.

I think he's talking about an adjacent stack reinforcing after the first round of battle. That is in EIA. And it's dependent on a leader roll.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

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Post #: 224

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 6:32:11 PM

Joisey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

The thing is any early battle is likely to employ about 1/3 of the numbers I tried in the experiment on the previous page. I like inflicting an additional 3-12 factors on top of anything else that happens.
But still, I have read about an offensive by AU/PR but very little in the way of details. How would you deploy AU/PR?

Adjacent to each other on their shared border, and far enough away from the French that they cannot be attacked in a "double move" by the French (moving last, then first, in the turn order).

On their first combined movement, combine them into one big stack, and head for France using any hill, woods, or river hexside for a defensive advantage if available. Going down through Austria allows the Austrians to add some infantry/militia to pad their corps. Get G.B. to pay the supply costs. Seek battle with France as soon as possible, but your probably better off if the French attack you, rather than the other way around. Better outcome on the likely chit picks that way.

You'll probably only win this battle 1/3 of the time, but if you do, and keep the momentum going against the French, the French can't win. Even if you lose, hanging together and forcing the French to give you both a conditional peace prevents the French from giving you staggered peace conditions.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

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Post #: 225

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 7:29:09 PM

morvwilson

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That sounds fine but, FR could be in Berlin in one move coming out of Hanover so, PR has to leave a garrison. How strong would you make it? Would you leave a garrison in Magdeburg? What about the Saxons? Where would the PR leaders be?
Coming out of Italy, FR could take Salzburg or Triest on the first move and be in Vienna on the second. How would your AU garrisons be arranged? Would you garrison Mantua? If so how strong? How would you employ AU light inf. corps?
In two moves the FR could be in Bohemia, Moravia or Selesia using Hanover as their step off point.
In two moves the FR could be in Pest if moving out of Italy.
So, if you place your main armies outside of that reach that means they will be in Posen and/or Galicia and it will take you three months to march to the front. Since you would have to wait for March for money that places you at the front in June at the earliest.
Not to mention, that this makes it very easy for FR to take the germanic minors.
The devil is in the details! So,
Have I missed anything?
What have I got wrong?

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Post #: 226

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/13/2006 11:56:12 PM

megalomania2003

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I will dig out my copy and try to place the starting forces, but have to wait untill the weekend to do that

And I just thought of one thing we all have to keep in mind, and this might be the reason we have a different view - the mentalety of the players means almost everything (one of the reasons EIA continues to be interesting)

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Post #: 227

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/14/2006 12:59:21 AM

Monadman

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FYI guys, because of the simultaneous diplomacy format in EiANW, there will be a one-month delay for alliances wishing to move together. The program does not recognize an alliance made AND a combined movement request (a deviation called �loan�) in the SAME diplomacy phase. In other words, if an alliance is made during the Jan 05 diplomacy phase, then during the February diplomacy phase, one ally can formally commit (loan) his/her forces (players can hand pick which units to loan) to the other so that during the February land phase they can be moved by the borrower.

Richard

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Post #: 228

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/14/2006 1:33:18 AM

morvwilson

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As to AU's deployment, it looks to me that if they place 15I in Salzburg and 14I along with a full light inf. corps in Mantua that will stop any FR advance in that area. With PR/AU/GB at war with FR I don't think that anyone will try to march through the Bavaria sector. That would tend to had these minors to the other side.
As to PR's deployment if they place strong garrisons with CAV support in Magdeburg, Berlin, Wittenburg and Dresden, that will have the same effect in this area.
FR just does not have enough factors to place all of these cities under seige. Also, I could not find a rule that prohibits AU/PR from stacking together during the at start phase.

(in reply to Monadman)

Post #: 229

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/14/2006 4:42:50 AM

Joisey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

That sounds fine but, FR could be in Berlin in one move coming out of Hanover�so, PR has to leave a garrison. How strong would you make it? Would you leave a garrison in Magdeburg? What about the Saxons? Where would the PR leaders be?
Coming out of Italy, FR could take Salzburg or Triest on the first move and be in Vienna on the second. How would your AU garrisons be arranged? Would you garrison Mantua? If so how strong? How would you employ AU light inf. corps?
In two moves the FR could be in Bohemia, Moravia or Selesia using Hanover as their step off point.
In two moves the FR could be in Pest if moving out of Italy.
So, if you place your main armies outside of that reach that means they will be in Posen and/or Galicia and it will take you three months to march to the front. Since you would have to wait for March for money that places you at the front in June at the earliest.�
Not to mention, that this makes it very easy for FR to take the germanic minors.
The devil is in the details! So,
Have I missed anything?
What have I got wrong?

Ahh, well, I'm probably giving away trade secrets here, but......

I'd have two dummy corps stacked in Berlin. You could try for more, but that might not be believable to the French player, giving it away. Yes, it's a gamble, but Fortune Favors the Bold! Plus, it is not without risk to the French player. Frankly, I think a French player that wizzed past the Au/Pr combined army to Berlin would be asking to get cut off from the homeland and surrounded by Russians (normally massed in St. Petersburg for an amphibious attack on Sweden, could be persuaded to detour South to Berlin) and G.B. (Not much there for G.B. on the ground at the beginning, but there's all kinds of shenanigans you could pull, like having a "mock" bid for Sweden where all the coalition players agree to let G.B. win, and suddenly he's got two more corps to land in Prussia than you thought) together with Au/Pr.

Alternatively, Au/Pr could spread out into a sacrificial double line while G.B. and Spain land in Normandy to take Paris on the fly. Really, its the French player that has to worry about guarding his capital more than the coalition powers do.

Austria is even less inviting than Prussia. An invasion releases the Tyrol corp, and the combined Au/Pr army would be bearing down on you in Vienna anyway. Going to take it as the Fr player just ensures that the coalition will catch up to you.

So, I really don't think such risky and bold moves by the French player are likely. Time is on the French player's side. It makes much more sense for him to delay the first battle, and let the coalition come to him, so he can get in two turns production of infantry to swell his ranks.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

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Post #: 230

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/14/2006 7:13:22 AM

morvwilson

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"So, I really don't think such risky and bold moves by the French player are likely. Time is on the French player's side. It makes much more sense for him to delay the first battle, and let the coalition come to him, so he can get in two turns production of infantry to swell his ranks. "

I would tend to agree with this. Especially if the main AU/PR army is three months march away. I figure that FR can commit about 75I to fight AU/PR in the beginning. The rest has to guard the SP border, Paris and the fleet to prevent one of Pippins death grip maneuvers. Since FR does not have enough to beseige all of the cities that I suggested be garrisoned, they become a mutually supporting line. I don't see them as sacrificial. If FR beseiges one, one of the others can corp up and hit the supply line with just enough factors to cut supply and attrit the frogs. Then the only question to answer is where AU/PR should attack. Through Italy or Germany. I would tend to favor the northern route since you would be closer to GB support and supply by sea if you run into trouble. Also instead of placing the AU/PR army in Galicia or Posen, start them stacked together in the mountains next to Prague or maybe in Dresden.

(in reply to Joisey)

Post #: 231

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/14/2006 3:41:06 PM

Joisey

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Agreed. The best place for an Au/Pr start is stacked together in a mountain area.

I don't know how prevalent it is for other players to use, but I like to but 1 militia in a corps marker to use as a phantom corps. Even if your adversary knows you can't possibly have that many corps, I like the ability for deception. They are also good as pickets, forcing your adversary to go through a trivial combat which reveals his actual strength to you before deciding whether to engage him in battle.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to morvwilson)

Post #: 232

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/14/2006 10:28:24 PM

morvwilson

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Yes, deception is definitely part of the game! I have used that trick myself!

Next question, how do the FR counter an early AU/PR offensive?

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Post #: 233

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/15/2006 8:43:01 AM

morvwilson

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I just reran my experiment of an AU/PR offensive with more realistic numbers and keeping AU/PR in forest or mountains.
I started AU/PR stacked together in Dresden. They had PR I,�III corp full and PR guard. AU had I, II, III IC, IIC, I gren. all full and II gren with 2g, 2c.
The totals were 77I, 23C, 10G in 10 Corps under Charles, Moral, 3.4
The FR had six corps under Nappy with 67I, 15C, 5G moral 4.0
The two armies met in Erfurt a forest hex. I found the forest actually favored the FR because it reduces the casualty roll by one. It seems to me that for AU/PR, winning the battle is not necessarily the primary objective it is inflicting casualties at a faster rate than the FR can replace them.
I think AU/PR should be more agressive and face nappy in the open. Of course this is more dangerous, but you have a better chance of killing FR troops. I still think that RU help is a must in this. Because these battles will be bloody for both sides and more men will be needed in a hurry especially if there is a little bad luck for AU/PR.

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 12/15/2006 8:57:19 AM >

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Post #: 234

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/15/2006 9:42:34 PM

Joisey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

Yes, deception is definitely part of the game! I have used that trick myself!

Next question, how do the FR counter an early AU/PR offensive?

Standard tactics would include avoiding combat and buy time to build up strength, very easy for the French to do with movement 4 infantry and picking where they will go in the movement order.

Also, leaving garrisons in their corps markers forces an invader to either first besiege and reduce the garrison, or they have to leave a besieging force behind to prevent the garrison from cutting loose and disrupting the invaders' depot supply chain. France really doesn't have to fight until the invader reaches Paris.

Sucking an invader in, and then using fast forces to cut off their supply, is a time honored Russian tactic.

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to morvwilson)

Post #: 235

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/20/2006 12:55:28 AM

Murat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

Russian ART corp is 10, French is 12. the max casualties inflicted is 25% per round. So, for the Ru that is up to 9 extra factors kia in a battle, for the FR it is 12. Plus, ART only costs $7 per factor where CAV costs $15. Cav can inflict massive casualties, I have seen it done. But first you have to break your enemy. ART inflicts casualties no matter what and if I remember right, takes effect prior to combat results.

That would make it 12 units per comat that goes 3 rounds, FR or RU, with initial losses being available militia and longer the combat the more damage for a 7/1 unit, unlike the 15/2 cav unit where the shorter the combat the larger the damage. 5 cav (roughly equivalent to the whole Fr Art corps in cost) on their best pursuit roll will kill 6 cav = 18! I = 36! M.

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Post #: 236

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/20/2006 1:42:13 AM

morvwilson

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Very true, but you have to break your enemy without loosing too much of your own moral.

Face it, you need both artillery and CAV!

(in reply to Murat)

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RE: Best way to play each power - 12/20/2006 5:27:27 AM

Murat

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I would buy Cav>Art>Inf, just my strategy.

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RE: Best way to play each power - 12/20/2006 1:23:14 PM

McGuire

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There was some calculation about the outcome of the first clash between FR and AU/PR!

Well like it was said before there is a 3:2 advantage in numbers for AU/PR and a slight moral advantage for FR... Did I get it right morvwilson?

If so, there is just one tiny problem:
This only fits if AU and PR work together perfectly! And if FR isn't too good!

I've seen the following (me as SP):
Big stacks of chits! The war was gaing to start in the minors between FR & AU/PR (as usual, I think). FR had almost all his chits together - as did AU/PR. and right before the first clash there was a sole little FR cav-corp that interrupted the AU/PR supply line... Thanks god for double lang movement!

So when AU/PR was on the move they had three choices:
1. split up and forage, and be crushed one by one by FR
2. atteck the FR stack, and take losses by have people starving for more than 1 turn
3. do a forced march towards the cav-corp and reestablish the supply line - which is what they did!

They passed a value-4 area. More than 2 corps in the are + forced march = +3!
So for every die roll above 1 - troops die!

I don't know the exact numbers but doing some maths they lost about 35 factors.
FR lost 1 CAV. Now that's a good deal!

Never underestimate the power of movement of a dominant power!

As a summary:
I think the advantage is 3:2 on FR side!
Better morale!
Better leader!
Double movement!

_____________________________

There are only 10 types of people in the world!
Those who can read binary - and those who don't!

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 239

RE: Best way to play each power - 12/20/2006 5:08:31 PM

morvwilson

Posts: 510
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

I could see that happening if AU/PR stack takes the inland route. Tougher to guard the supply line.
What if the AU/PR start stacked together in Dresden with depots in dresden and Magdeburg and Magdeburg garrisoned.
First AU/PR move could be to Hanover (right next to Magdeburg) no supply problem. Second move to Amsterdam then either supply by sea from BR or from Magdeburg. Then stay on the coast as much as possible, (maybe catch FR fleet in Pippins death grip?) until you can reach Paris.
How would the french stop this advance?

(in reply to McGuire)

Post #: 240