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Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 1:50:45 PM   
ogrv643


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/14/2004
Status: offline 		Hey there. Who can help this newbie out, cause I don't understand this transport thingy here.

How do I determin how big my transport ship needs to be to load a ground unit?

In the ground unit info window I see Load cost AP, Load cost AK and Load cost LST.
Does that have anything to do with it or not?
Lets say a unit says Load cost AP = 3100. Does that mean I just need 1 AP with at least 3100 of cardgo space?

If so, how come the Load cost is so much bigger for an AK?
Does that mean I need much more AK's to load that same ground unit?


Or don't these Load costs have anything to do with it?

< Message edited by ogrv643 -- 8/15/2004 11:52:36 AM >

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RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 2:28:08 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ogrv643

Hey there. Who can help this newbie out, cause I don't understand this transport thingy here.

How do I determin how big my transport ship needs to be to load a ground unit?

In the ground unit info window I see Load cost AP, Load cost AK and Load cost LST.
Does that have anything to do with it or not?
Lets say a unit says Load cost AP = 3100. Does that mean I just need 1 AP with at least 3100 of cardgo space?

If so, how come the Load cost is so much bigger for an AK?
Does that mean I need much more AK's to load that same ground unit?


Or don't these Load costs have anything to do with it?



The load costs are there to help you determine the how many transports you will need and what type. Different ships were built for different missions so yes, an AP can load more troops than an AK but an AK can load more supplies than an AP. Always add more ships than the min required. I normally add one or two more just to make sure everything gets loaded. When troops are loaded they do not bring internal supplies so make sure you have enough space in your TF to bring some along.

Most players will build a TF for each unit they load and then combine into a single TF so they have more control over who goes where.

Hope this helps,
Rick

< Message edited by Kid -- 8/15/2004 12:28:40 PM >

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to ogrv643)
Post #: 2
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 2:44:26 PM   
Deathifier

 

Posts: 362
Joined: 6/17/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ogrv643
How do I determin how big my transport ship needs to be to load a ground unit?


There are three ways:
1. Analyse the various load costs for the unit you are loading and assemble the optimal number of ships to do the job.
2. Look at the load cost for AP or AK and bring along a TF of ships with that capacity or higher.
3. Just throw together the nearest 80 transports and escorts and throw a party :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogrv643
In the ground unit info window I see Load cost AP, Load cost AK and Load cost LST.
Does that have anything to do with it or not?


No that just tells you the minimum total load of a TF (loading that unit ONLY) composed of those ship types. Some units load better into AP's (infantry and such) and some into AK's (arty). There is a table in the manual which describes the load cost for each base item type vs. the base ship types.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogrv643
Lets say a unit says Load cost AP = 3100. Does that mean I just need 1 AP with at least 3100 of cardgo space?

Yep!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogrv643
If so, how come the Load cost is so much bigger for an AK?
Does that mean I need much more AK's to load that same ground unit?

See the table mentioned above for the reason why ;)
And yes, generally you need a huge stack of AK's to move a large unit around.

Things get quite a bit more complex when you try and put multiple units on a TF - esp. one full of AK's. You'll find that they hold only 2 or three of the full size divisions across almost 100 ships.
The game will load ships pretty smartly, basically if you pick, say, 8 units and only 2 can load it'll load those two (fully, no parts left over) only.
On the other hand if you load a small unit onto a large TF (of say 50 ships, where it only needs 5) the game WILL spread it out across all the ships, presumably to reduce losses if ships should sink.

After some experimenting, chaos and exceptionally large transport groups roaming around you'll get a feel for it ;)

- Deathifier

< Message edited by Deathifier -- 8/15/2004 10:44:50 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 3:01:58 PM   
captskillet


Posts: 2493
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
Status: offline 		Some units such as LCU's load into AP's 'better' (More efficiently) than AK's and some, such as ENG's load into AK's better. Just take the load cost for a unit and build a TF with at least a couple of extra ships (AP or AK) over and above that 'needed' capacity..the whole unit will then load up and I get no partial loads. I generally will add a TK to carry some fuel and then add a coule of loaded (with supply) AK's to carry some extra toilet paper !!!

< Message edited by captskillet -- 8/15/2004 7:02:51 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 3:04:39 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Things get real complicated when, for whatever reason, you end up having a couple of AKs, a couple of APs, and a couple of LSxs to use. Trying to see if you have enough space is fun. I used an excell spreadsheet to try to figure that one out.

(in reply to Deathifier)
Post #: 5
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 3:11:19 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Raymond ("Mr.Frag") told us that you guys found some small math error in cargo calculations.

Will that be fixed in upcoming patch?


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 6
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 3:17:42 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Raymond ("Mr.Frag") told us that you guys found some small math error in cargo calculations.

Will that be fixed in upcoming patch?


Leo "Apollo11"


All I can tell you is, it is on the list.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 3:41:10 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

All I can tell you is, it is on the list.


OK...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 8
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 8:21:33 PM   
ogrv643


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/14/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for the response guys :)

So there is an error eh?
I think that's one of the reasons I asked the question. Cause of course I tried some things for my self, but I think I noticed the following.... or is there an explanation fo it?

Ummmm...... I want to load a unit. The unit's info window says it's Load cost for AK is 28000.
So I put together a AK TF with a total cargo space 30000.
The way I'm thinking is, that I have 2000 of cargo space left in that TF, right?

Well, guess not. Cause after I load the unit onto the ships, it turns out the ground unit didn't take up the 28000 it said it would take.
I think it says less than the 28000.

Is this the error you guys were talking about, or am I an idiot because there is an explanation for this?

_____________________________

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Post #: 9
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 8:27:46 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Take the displayed number:

Add about 25% for AP's

Add about 15% for AK's

If you mix the AP's & AK's, you'll go insane

Basically, a Div that is reporting about 24k to load will actually be able 28.5k to load.

If you want, you can actually do the math.

Take the parts of the unit and look up their load factors in the database screen. Multiply it out keeping track of what parts are inf, gun, veh, or arm. Note the different load costs of the ships. Apply that against the load costs. Poof, exact numbers.

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 8/15/2004 1:30:18 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 8:39:50 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Take the displayed number:

Add about 25% for AP's

Add about 15% for AK's

If you mix the AP's & AK's, you'll go insane


Well, insanity is a prerequisite for playing the game in the first place so....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Basically, a Div that is reporting about 24k to load will actually be able 28.5k to load.

If you want, you can actually do the math.

Take the parts of the unit and look up their load factors in the database screen. Multiply it out keeping track of what parts are inf, gun, veh, or arm. Note the different load costs of the ships. Apply that against the load costs. Poof, exact numbers.


Its not always clear what category a particular element goes in. Is a 60mm mortar infantry or artillery? How about 0.5 inch Browning AA? Radar?

Actually, it would nice to know those things even if you don't manually calculate loads.

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Post #: 11
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 8:46:04 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		A sample: 56th Division sitting in Osaka when the game starts:

format = unit info (Load factor from database) (total)

(grunts)
IJA Inf Squad (8) x 439 (LF 17) (7599)
IJA Eng Squad (0) x 36 (LF 18) (648)
Engineers (0) x 27 (LF 20) (540)
Support (12) x 613 (LF 20) (12500)
= 21287 (these are troop factors)

1x in an AP or 21287
6x in an AK or 127722
2x in LST or 42574

(guns)
81mm Mortar (2) x 106 (LF 4) (432)
90mm Mortar (0) x 18 (LF 5) (90)
37mm AT Gun (0) x 40 (LF 5) (200)
70mm Howitzer (0) x 18 (LF 8) (144)
75mm Inf Gun (0) x 36 (LF 8) (288)
75mm Field Gun (0) x 24 (LF 9) (216)
105mm Howitzer (0) x 20 (LF 12) (240)
= 1610 (these are artillery factors)

3x in an AP or 4830
2x in an AK or 3220
1x in LST or 1610

(tanks)
Type 92 Tank (0) x 7 (LF 10) (240)
= 240 (these are tank factors)

6x in an AP or 1440
4x in an AK or 960
1x in LST or 240

Summing up the individual types requires you to look at the ship types

AP: 27557
AK: 131902
LST: 44424

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 12
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 8:56:11 PM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

The routines that show the load cost only estimate that cost. When the ships are actually loaded, they sometimes come out a bit more or less than these estimates.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogrv643

Thanks for the response guys :)

So there is an error eh?
I think that's one of the reasons I asked the question. Cause of course I tried some things for my self, but I think I noticed the following.... or is there an explanation fo it?

Ummmm...... I want to load a unit. The unit's info window says it's Load cost for AK is 28000.
So I put together a AK TF with a total cargo space 30000.
The way I'm thinking is, that I have 2000 of cargo space left in that TF, right?

Well, guess not. Cause after I load the unit onto the ships, it turns out the ground unit didn't take up the 28000 it said it would take.
I think it says less than the 28000.

Is this the error you guys were talking about, or am I an idiot because there is an explanation for this?

(in reply to ogrv643)
Post #: 13
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 8:58:02 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		<slaps self> DOH!

Didn't think to look in the database. That's what I get for trying to use common sense.

Would still like to know about radar and sound detection elements that are listed for some units.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

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Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


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Post #: 14
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/15/2004 9:11:51 PM   
mongo


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		I'll be damned if I have to hunt in the database before I load up troops

I just generally add 30% to all load requirements (and still sometimes don't get everything )

Eagerly waiting to see if the patch can make the process a bit easier..

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Post #: 15
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 12:13:19 AM   
captskillet


Posts: 2493
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
Status: offline 		Thats basically what I do Mongo, if the unit says the load cost is 20,000 for a AK convoy, I will make the convoy 30,000 (usually it only takes 5 or 6 ships to make a 30,000 pt AK convoy) and so far I have left no unit behind in pieces.

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Post #: 16
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 5:11:55 AM   
grumbler

 

Posts: 214
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Falls Church VA USA
Status: offline 		You always want to have extra ships so one ship loss doesn't kill or cripple the unit anyway. I usualy use twice the niminal value as the TF value. I have found that with up to three units this works well as a single TF loaded all at once. More units than that (or more than one on the "first turn instaload regime") require seperate TFs (later combined) to avoid the "first-clicked unit takes 28% of the space on the available transport and the rest get crammed into what is left" syndrome. If you have all of one unit loaded into one ship, Finagle's Law says that one is torpedo-bait.

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Post #: 17
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 12:24:08 PM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline 		If load cost indicates 1 AP would load (4k-less) I will add 2 AP and toss in 2 AK's basically if I'm using AP's to load troops I add an extra over the needed, and add in the AK's for supplies and equiptment/parts of the LCU that load on AK's better.

If you Do it right so that you have more then enough room for LCU's after selecting unit to load and loading.. it should b saying loading supplies meaning all of the LCU is loaded and now it is loading supplies in rest of space.

If Still loading troops it used up the ops for turn and you need wait for more ops to finish loading, unless it shows that the max is loaded then your leaving bits behind.

I find the 2x needed AP plus add 2 AK works pretty well for loading Troops.

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RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 5:15:05 PM   
ogrv643


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

If you Do it right so that you have more then enough room for LCU's after selecting unit to load and loading.. it should b saying loading supplies meaning all of the LCU is loaded and now it is loading supplies in rest of space.

Hey that's a good one. I'll try to remember that.

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Post #: 19
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 6:49:30 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		I look at the requirement and make a TF with LESS than the needed cargo space. I load it. I look at what is left unloaded. I make another small TF and load that. I repeat this (with the last bit taking 1 or 2 tries with 1 ship TFs). Then I merge all the TFs together and send them on their way.

Time consuming but I don't leave people behind.

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RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 6:51:41 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		What I would like to know is why sound detectors (radars as well I guess) sometimes get left behind whatever you do. OK you can load it up afterwards but still ...

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Post #: 21
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 6:58:18 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		What I would like to know (semi related) is: If I load much of a unit (say 80% by weight) and get "Malay 37th Inf/1" in my transport, then the parent unit, Malay 37th Inf with the bits left behind gets destroyed by the Japanese, will my "/1" unit ever become the real unit? Will it ever get to take on replacements or upgrade? Will it (I think this is the case) rather stay in the game as an /X unit until the original cadre returns as a replacement after several months?

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Post #: 22
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 7:45:08 PM   
SunDevil_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 783
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Scroll down half the page. There are a couple of threads that talk about loading troops and supplies onto ships.

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D677926

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Post #: 23
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/16/2004 8:58:52 PM   
AlvinS

 

Posts: 665
Joined: 12/2/2000
From: O'Fallon, Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

If you mix the AP's & AK's, you'll go insane


Amen. I beat my head against the wall on that one for a while. I'm starting to get the hang of it.

Love this game. All I need is more hours in the day!

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AlvinS

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Post #: 24
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/17/2004 1:08:38 AM   
mongo


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvinS
Love this game. All I need is more hours in the day!


Yah.. I know.

I thought about asking for an in-game clock. Perversely however, there are times I take great pride when the alarm clock goes off and I look away from the screen. I'm more mad about having to go to work than being up all night

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Post #: 25
RE: Determining cargo space to load a ground unit - 8/17/2004 4:34:22 AM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

What I would like to know is why sound detectors (radars as well I guess) sometimes get left behind whatever you do. OK you can load it up afterwards but still ...



You using AK's in the TF? its been said ceratin parts of a LCU load best on an AK, then just an AP.

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Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

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Post #: 26
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