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StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 3:40:02 AM

Shaun Wallace

Posts: 819
Joined: 3/23/2001
From: UK
Status: offline

Hi Guys,

I came across this link the other day and it makes for interesting reading.

http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/page2.asp

quote:

About drivers, the technology built into StarForce to prevent reverse engineering and anti-emulation has been around since the beginning, installing drivers is part of the technology. StarForce has many different products that can be configured in different ways. It is up to the publisher to choose a configuration with or without drivers depending on the level of protection he prefers.

The drivers are what prevents the use of kernel debugger utilities such as SoftICE, Cool Debugger, Soft Snoop etc. Also the drivers prevent emulators from spoofing a drive, and thwart burning tools such as Alcohol 120%. StarForce implementation requires no physical modification of the disc, or the equipment that molds the discs, so this method is a clear advantage to publishers because it gives them the flexibility to use just about any plant they wish. This is a limitation of some of our competitors� products, which require not only special hardware, but also expensive software add-ons for test and diagnostic equipment.

These are 2 quotes from the interview. In fact once you get past the hysteria that surrounds Starforce, you have to actually ask, who benefits or is hit the most by the use of a copy protection that works?

quote:

In an industry when copy protection is often effective for only hours after first being released and usually games are available to pirates from distribution channels or shady press members a week before they appear on store shelves

quote:

With even hardware solutions such as those on the PlayStation 2, or the combined hardware/authentication method used on the Xbox via Xbox Live! being cracked by pirates, is there hope for such an open platform as the PC?

Now an industry figure for games (and this is a conservative figure) is that 70 out of every 100 games played (70%) is a pirate copy. Only 30% of people who play games play the legal version of any game. (This kind of puts most of you in the minority I think) I know from my work with various games companies that this is a solid stat. Now ask yourselves another question. Have you been to EB or Game etc lately? Noticed anything? The PC games section is getting smaller and smaller. One of the prime reasons for this is that console games are a much much safer bet for games companies in terms of piracy.

quote:

Q - Uninstalling games that use StarForce, such as TOCA Race Driver 2, Broken Sword 3 and Silent Storm apparently doesn't remove StarForce. Was this simply an oversight by game publishers/developers, or a necessary part of the copy protection process?

quote:

Abbie Sommer: The fact that they remain was something that no one predicted would be such a contentious issue. Going forward, we are encouraging all publishers to include the SFdriver cleaner utility into their un-install scripts. There are a tremendous amount of residual files that get loaded onto on a system without our knowledge when we load a program, be it a game, a movie or music player, video or sound card drivers etc. Far more than the average person realizes. Now that we hear the dissatisfaction about it, we have taken steps to fix it, the publishers are too. We also have the tools posted on our website for anyone to download. http://www.star-force.com/index.phtml?category=200&type=5 BTW, we are not the only CP provider who loads drivers; it is a common part of several protections.

As we all know this is VERY true, most if not all programs do not totally uninstall.

quote:

Q - There have been complaints that StarForce interferes with serial ATA drivers, RAID drivers or USB utilities. Now we haven't had problems here at FiringSquad with StarForce, certainly nothing like "StarForce has killed my USB card reader/messed up my SATA drive" but is there the possibility that StarForce can interfere with some legitimate hardware and software? It's possible that would-be pirates are badmouthing it due to their frustration, but certainly there's some truth to the problems.

Abbie Sommer: Glad to hear you haven�t had any problems, truthfully very few people do. Our code has never been more stable or compatible. We get a minuscule amount of emails reporting trouble in proportion to the quantity of protected game discs that have shipped. In the past we did have a few problems with USB driver conflicts, it was fixed and publishers were advised to make patches to update the protected games. I think you are correct about the outcry; some of the forum posters are using the driver controversy as a means to vent their frustration at not being able to make a 1:1 copy of the game. This is not the first time, and it won�t be the last. I know that gamers often reply on help from forums to get a problem solved, but when it comes to copy protection issues they really should contact the publisher or us to get accurate information

quote:

Conclusion - Yes, invasive copy protection sucks and probably contributes somewhat to the popularity of CD cracks and even outright piracy - but let's face it, publishers aren't stupid. They likely think long and hard before deciding whether it's worth paying for copy protection and irritating the very customers they're trying to court. The irresponsible behavior of gamers is forcing publishers to take more drastic measures to protect their investment. Yes, they're trying to make money off us, but that money is used to make more games. The very games we enjoy. We have to take responsibility for our actions. Does anyone actually believe if there were no copy protection, game sales would increase?

quote:

PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy - through the proliferation of CD burners, DVD burners and broadband internet connections - then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease. Without a big market there can be no big budgets. No Doom 4, no Far Cry 2 and no Half-Life 3. Without a big market, the size of niche markets will also shrink, so we'd be even less likely to see FreeSpace 3 or another Fallout game. The fact is, though the number of computers is vastly greater than ever before, and their longevity - their ability to play modern games long after the PC was sold - is increased, PC game sales have been dropping at an alarming rate

The conclusion really says it all. I have actually called and spoken to both Codemasters and Digital Jesters about Starforce and I have to admit that I have changed my mind, maybe it IS time that we took a look at the ease of piracy and the future of PC games. The two are VERY much tied together.

Let me know what you think, please read the full article from the link and post your thoughts here.

Cheers

Sulla

_____________________________

Nec amicus officium nec hostis iniuriam mihi intulit, quo in toto non reddidi. - Sulla
----------------------
http://www.closecombat.org/csoforums/portal.php

Post #: 1

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 6:16:12 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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I personally believe this will cost the developers and publishers in the long term, you have 30% return on your product now, but, think about this very carefully. When you start invading another persons privacy, you are stepping over the boundaries of many of their contitutional rights and freedoms. I personally have boycotted and will boycott any games that I find that have starforce on them, not because now it can be easily removed, but, because it still is "intrusive". How do you think that would hold up in court when presented as I'm sure this will happen eventually, because of stepping over the boundaries of privacy.

From another (legit) forum I had read that DOOM III (starforce) protection was broke within 5 hours, so explain to me how this is going to help save the software industry? Making "honest" customers even angrier? possibly pushing those on borderline piracy to the other side, going from 30% sales to 25% sale, you would call that a success?

I think the software industry forgets one thing, they need us, more than we need them. We had entertainment avenues long before computers, and those entertainment avenues still exist and will exist even if the computer gaming industry fails (which I highly doubt it will, but, the smaller ones may disappear, but, the larger ones will just pick up what they left off). For the smaller ones, they were probably better off having a regular job making garage/basement titles, than trying to sustain a living in the big bear world, they can't compete with EA, Microsoft and Activision, Atari, just to name a few. And if you try to follow their paths you will still lose out in the long run, they can afford to take losses and still make a profit, can the smaller developer say the same?

In closing: The wargaming market is already small enough without taking the chance on decreasing it any futher. You have already gone to direct sales, direct purchase, which has surely already dimished your customer base, but, perhaps not your profits since you gain more now. I would weigh highly on the customer input of this idea, it's been a heated discussion against such copy protection around several forums I have been to. Oh I don't expect the 13 year old to give squat about copy protection, but, then again I expect that age group to be the leaders of piracy, they don't have the funds like we adults do, but, they still have the wants just like anyone else would. And since they don't have the funds, they are likely to just wait out those "few hours" or "few days" to pirate the software anyway, I just don't see the advantage of an "intrusive" copy protection program.

(in reply to Shaun Wallace)

Post #: 2

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 7:23:18 AM

dinsdale

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Joined: 5/1/2003
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This wasn't an interview, it was a series of softball questions by email with no follow up. Little better than a press release from SF.

They've already had to patch this trojan to prevent crashes, with the poor quality of software released these days, does anyone think it works correctly yet?

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 3

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 8:22:54 AM

Hexed Gamer

Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

This is getting old, people that can't tell the difference from when someone is talking to no one in particular, with being indicated directly, will always end up offended when some topics are discussed.

Take for instance the thread about the clearly obvious pirate sale of WitP on the other current thread here in General Discussions.

I have no trouble at all labelling anyone that would actually buy that guy's offer as being no better than him.
And anyone that would support the person's "right" to "legally" buy something on eBay is a f**king dolt.
Especially when even a moron knows a new 70 dollar game sold only via digital download, will NOT be legitimate article on eBay at 5 bucks.

If anyone here at Matrix Games wishes to consider that a personal attack on them, to bad. It wasn't, but I won't cry over anyone that insists it was.

I have read up on this Starforce. For one I don't own any of the games. But that is just chance. I found a modest utility to remove Starforce off the system.
Interestingly enough, I have already encountered someone vexed by trying to break it in Doom 3.
It's not much of a defense though, and won't last long.
Not sure if it was even worth the cash to develope.
But doing nothing is not good enough.

The problem is no one is actually seeing who is the real source of the problem. The people that make software can't be expected to always have yet another unbeatable copy protection program.
And pirates will always be out there in vast sums till we make it near impossible to be one.

Right now, the real weak links in the process, are people making blank media so readly accessible, people making hardware to use blank media, and people providing such wonderful internet services that allow for such incredible volumes of data to be moved at a whim.

I don't have the answers, I just know they are the weak link.

eBay is another wink link. Maybe it is time we made eBay genuinely suffer for so blindly allowing such practices. maybe it is time for a class action suit to give them incentive to care. It wasn't easy to stop Napster, but it had to be done.

Until these big holes in the process are addressed, people might just as well stop crying. Because the problem will NOT go away.

On the subject of retail shelf space, I have to disagree (again). All the stores I shop in, in several EB outlets in several cities in southern Ontario, have heathy PC sections. The boxes shrunk in recent years and that means more occupies the same space these days too. Consoles do have a large portion of the stores, but no one console version is equal to PC in all the stores I visit.

But maybe retail is not the best way to market. That has been already discussed adequately lately though.
I really don't care if retail has a future frankly. Let those store sink for all I care. There is nothing stopping software being sold entirely online.
This is the 21st century and the retail outlet is not the only option today.

But copy protection is a fleeting thing. The industry needs to make it less attractive to make copies first. The industry needs to make it less attractive to gve away downloads casually.
The industry needs to start not making it so easy to harm itself.

Ever wonder what the world would be like without blank cds blank dvds blank cassettes or the machines to use them?
Sure would be a lot harder to pirate stuff if you had no where to put it all.

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 4

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 9:41:42 AM

dinsdale

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Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
This is getting old, people that can't tell the difference from when someone is talking to no one in particular, with being indicated directly, will always end up offended when some topics are discussed.

Perhaps you can explain that. I have no idea what it means.

quote:

Interestingly enough, I have already encountered someone vexed by trying to break it in Doom 3.

DOOM3 doesn't use Starforce, so your friend will have a tough time breaking it.

quote:

I don't have the answers, I just know they are the weak link.

No those are products which have many uses. Just as a pair of shoes may be worn, or used as a method of running away from the scene of a crime.

The weak link is thieves. They are the ones who need to be stopped. No one can do that but the software industry with better copy protection.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 5

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 5:07:34 PM

Hexed Gamer

Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

Dinsdale, stop expecting me to type in custom answers specifically to say what you want to hear.

If you can't fathom what I am saying, well, you can always try reading any of a large number of other posts here at Matrix Games.

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 6

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 7:38:42 PM

SlapBone

Posts: 269
Joined: 7/27/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

Ok, here is the obligatory backlash comment: If you put Starcrap in any of the Matrix products, I will make it my personal crusade to see that those products get boycotted by the gamers that I know who have bought them before. There are only 2 or 3 companies left that I even care about this issue, and Matrix is one of them. You want some decent copy protection for your downloaded games, then get away from Digital River. The "Sports Management" game genre has this problem pretty much taken care of.

Try this link:

http://elicense.com/

Games that use it:

http://www.solecismic.com/

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/

Two of the most respected names in sports management sims. These guys have come to accept their niche market for what it is..."A niche market", and have taken neccessary steps to protect their IP in that environment.

_____________________________

(in reply to Shaun Wallace)

Post #: 7

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 8:39:16 PM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Dinsdale, stop expecting me to type in custom answers specifically to say what you want to hear.

If you can't fathom what I am saying, well, you can always try reading any of a large number of other posts here at Matrix Games.

Yes god forbid you participate in a discussion when your wistful stream of consciousness, stained with pathos will do instead. At least have the dignity to correct your mistakes in future leslie.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 8

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 9:47:04 PM

Hartley

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/2/2003
Status: offline

People buy consoles because they're cheap and any idiot can make them work.

Developers do console games because there is a big market, and beacuse technical support and quality assurance are a relative breeze.

All this even though PS2 and Xbox piracy are rampant.

So CP has little to do with any of it.

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 9

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 10:37:32 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

I had just read in Computer Games Magazine that the software industry "surpassed" the movie industry last year in the billions of dollars, and they are still crying for MORE??? I dunno, even with piracy they are making a killing and wanting more, thas a tough one. For me it's the faulty and crappy software out of the box that really frustrates me. Now they want to "spy" on my system as well? I "buy" my software, but, I draw the line when they start having a peek inside my system.

(in reply to Hartley)

Post #: 10

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 11:49:18 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

Bottom line, who cares?

Use whatever you feel is required to protect yourself and stay in business!

The real issue that people tend to miss is that "if the company making the software goes out of business, you will not be playing any games at all"

I have been around since before the Apple/Radio Shack days where "Hunt the Wumpus" was considered a game. This past year, apart from Matrix Games, I have picked up 2 other games. The previous years as far back as I can remember, it was 2 games a month pretty much every month. Now I sit here with tons of money to throw away and no one to give it to. I can see the industry hurting just by going to IGN or Gamespot and looking at new releases. There just aren't any.

Protection is better then No Games.

I personally think the CEO of eBay should be arrested and nailed with a 40,000+ line list of charges, one for every single entry in their system that points to something illegal. The same should be done to ISP's that are found to contain emule/kazza type traffic. Nail 10 of them to the wall and watch things suddenly change in a hurry.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 11

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/23/2004 11:59:40 PM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
I personally think the CEO of eBay should be arrested and nailed with a 40,000+ line list of charges, one for every single entry in their system that points to something illegal. The same should be done to ISP's that are found to contain emule/kazza type traffic. Nail 10 of them to the wall and watch things suddenly change in a hurry.

As reasonable as:

I personally think the CEO of Chase Manhattan should be arrested and nailed with a 40,000+ line list of charges, one for every single entry in their system that points to something illegal. The same should be done to Highway management companies that are found to contain drug/weapons type traffic. Nail 10 of them to the wall and watch things suddenly change in a hurry.

Good copy protection would be great, provided it works and is not interfering with the operation of a PC, and especially not without informing through the installer. I'd be interested to know how WiTP is doing since it requires a serial number, but while articles such as above make claims of losses, the industry balks at publishing sales figures, so we may never know.

As for blaming others for the woes of publishers, well I have no sympathy for an industry which wants to rely on others to protect it's IP. Matrix are probably the only publisher with games on the horizon I want over the next few months. I hope they flourish, but if they don't then I will not be mouring their passing.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 12

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 12:25:27 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

I personally think the CEO of Chase Manhattan should be arrested and nailed with a 40,000+ line list of charges, one for every single entry in their system that points to something illegal.

Hardly the same. The *entire* act of selling software is in direct violation of any licence agreement written in the last 5 years. To pretend that you don't *know* that it's illegal yet act as the middleman for the transaction *and* skim a commission from the illegal act makes you accountable. If eBay didn't charge a percentage they would have a defense, but since they do indeed profit from the criminal act, they become party to the crime.

It's like saying the guy who drove the getaway car when the bank was robbed should not be charged with robbing the bank, he should simply be given a speeding ticket because he didn't actually enter the bank.

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 13

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 12:40:14 AM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I personally think the CEO of Chase Manhattan should be arrested and nailed with a 40,000+ line list of charges, one for every single entry in their system that points to something illegal.

Hardly the same. The *entire* act of selling software is in direct violation of any licence agreement written in the last 5 years.
To pretend that you don't *know* that it's illegal yet act as the middleman for the transaction *and* skim a commission from the illegal act makes you accountable. If eBay didn't charge a percentage they would have a defense, but since they do indeed profit from the criminal act, they become party to the crime.

Ebay doesn't sell anything, it facilitates selling. Tell me how they breach a EULA they are not party to again? Further, a EULA cannot possibly override the law. Sales of software is legal, sale of pre-owned software is also legal. There's nothing the EULA can do about it. You're call for the head of an online company which sells nothing is as silly as arresting every banker whose bank contains deposits from criminals.

quote:

It's like saying the guy who drove the getaway car when the bank was robbed should not be charged with robbing the bank, he should simply be given a speeding ticket because he didn't actually enter the bank.

No, what you're saying is that the man who built the car should also be arrested. I believe pirates should be punished, not every other industry which might be used to facilitate piracy: quick quick, shut down supermarkets, after all, pirates need food and the supermarkets are helping them

Anyway, as software is not sold but licensed, there are few IP infringements which are criminal. Of course, the industry will never want to sell their software, that would enable consumers all kinds of protections which would cost the industry dearly.

< Message edited by dinsdale -- 8/23/2004 10:43:32 PM >

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 14

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 1:59:47 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

Anyway, as software is not sold but licensed, there are few IP infringements which are criminal. Of course, the industry will never want to sell their software, that would enable consumers all kinds of protections which would cost the industry dearly.

Thats the whole problem ... MAKE IT CRIMINAL LAW ... right now it is nothing more then civil "who's got the better lawyers" law.

Theft is Theft in any other arena. Why should software THEFT be treated differently?

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 15

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 2:03:33 AM

Hexed Gamer

Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

Dinsdale, you just don't get it do you.

We are discussing the problem of software piracy, so yammering about drug trafficing, what does that really do for this problem.

Stick to this problem, let the people that want to sell weed deal with their own industry eh.

Frag is right, slapping around the people that make it "possible" to pirate will stick it to the pirates.

God man, you sound like you actually support pirates.

What would happen if we started really puttng the heat to people that make it possible to pirate, well they would start to actually give a damn about who was using their service.

Know what, it would be defacto shooting myself in the foot as I like to download things from the net. Its a pandora's box though.
And I for one am in favour of closing the damn box. Even if I don't get a lot out of it.

Life was fine before the net made all this downloading possible. So making it a little harder would not be a catastrophe. Life existed before the web.

"Ebay doesn't sell anything, it facilitates selling"

Bullsh*t

eBay is the seller, and saying otherwise is moronic nitpicking. Without eBay you don't get the sale. Thus you need eBay to make the sale, thus eBay made the sale.
They are responsible for the sale, the sale doesn't happen in their absence.
So insisting that eBay is somehow magically removed set apart, not really responsible is no better than petulant whiny defiance.

You Dinsadale are a "cliff jumper". You are happy to go jump off a cliff because everyone else is doing it.
Engage your mind and stop pretending eBay isn't the root of the problem with pirating on eBay.
They can fix it, they don't because no one is making them.

So someone should change that.

< Message edited by Hexed Gamer -- 8/24/2004 12:05:56 AM >

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 16

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 6:32:40 AM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Thats the whole problem ... MAKE IT CRIMINAL LAW ... right now it is nothing more then civil "who's got the better lawyers" law.

I think that's a good idea. At the moment, within a couple of blocks of my office there are sellers of rip-off watches, clothes, DVDs and CD's, it's more than just software which is losing out to piracy. However, if IP fraud is to be criminalised, then I'd like to see an end to the practice of licenses being used to cover a de facto sale. That means the full weight of consumer protection unleashed upon software vendors.

As an aside, I had a good experience buying software from ebay. The product in question was real, and shrinkwrapped. It took a little bit of work to exclude the knock-offs and the pirates, but it's not difficult to determine that the vendor from HK selling with Chinese writing on the box was a pirate. It's not ebay's fault that China does not respect copyright law, and it's the buyers responsibility to ensure obtaining a legitimate product.

Theft is Theft in any other arena. Why should software THEFT be treated differently?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 17

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 6:47:11 AM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
We are discussing the problem of software piracy, so yammering about drug trafficing, what does that really do for this problem.

It's called an analagy to illustrate the point.

quote:

Frag is right, slapping around the people that make it "possible" to pirate will stick it to the pirates.

That includes you then. You contribute to your ISP's pockets, thus enabling them to stay in business and serve pirates. Maybe you should be taxed in light of your support for those who support those who pirate.

quote:

God man, you sound like you actually support pirates.

Why, because I don't think draconian and misplaced attacks on seperate industries are warranted to protect games?

quote:

What would happen if we started really puttng the heat to people that make it possible to pirate, well they would start to actually give a damn about who was using their service.

:yawn: Again, until we start putting the heat on the people who make it possible to steal/rape/murder/jaywalk etc then why should this remarkable extension of blame apply here?

quote:

Life was fine before the net made all this downloading possible. So making it a little harder would not be a catastrophe. Life existed before the web.

Yes, people simply swapped games with their friends. You make it sound as though all the ills of the world have suddenly arrived with the internet.

quote:

Bullsh*t

Another eloquent and brilliant arguement from the master himself. Please provide some evidence if you'd like to play this game. What does ebay sell?

quote:

eBay is the seller, and saying otherwise is moronic nitpicking. Without eBay you don't get the sale. Thus you need eBay to make the sale, thus eBay made the sale.

Lol, it looks like the subtleties of law and society don't make an impression. If you'd like to believe in this simplistic world where blame can be attached whereever you feel like it, then enjoy.

quote:

They are responsible for the sale, the sale doesn't happen in their absence.
So insisting that eBay is somehow magically removed set apart, not really responsible is no better than petulant whiny defiance.

Impressive, you have about 800 years of contract law opposing you, but don't let that get in the way.

Anyway, with that level of eloquence and ignorance I bid you farewell leslie. You didn't take long to revert to your former account's posting style did you

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 18

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 9:03:25 AM

Home40

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/27/2001
Status: offline

"The PC games section is getting smaller and smaller. One of the prime reasons for this is that console games are a much much safer bet for games companies in terms of piracy. "

The other reason is that console games are a safer bet for folks wanting, uncomplicated trouble free entertainment.

People who actually enjoy farting around with their perfidious PCs prolly see defeating copy protection as often the best 'level' of the game.

Copy protection errors can only further tarnish the reputation of PCs as entertainment for the busy parent dollar or the single-mum pound. ;)

h40

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 19

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 9:53:49 AM

Cmdrcain

Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline

Looking over posts I have some thoughts:

First and Foremost is that anyone selling something that they claim COPYWRITE Protection has to remember that that law which protects creators etc from such illrgal copys and lose of revenues also SPECIFIES by LAW that a buyer of the copywrited work has an right to make archival Copy/backup.

I am so tired of software etc publishers, Tired of RIAA and others who
talk of stopping copying when the very law that protects them also gives a legitimate buyer the LEGAL RIGHT under FEDERAL LAW to make copys for own personal use/backup.

I am not against copy protection, I understand the reasons for it but I think any protection should be a matter of RUNNING the program, never to prevent making a Backup copy of the MEDIA used for installing what you buy.

I personally think any software etc sold that has a protection scheme that prevents making a copy you can use to install the program if originals damaged or used in place of original, especially where the Cd needs be in drive is in violation of federal law cause preventing the legitimate buyer their RIGHTS within copywrite law is a violation of the copywrite law as much as an illegal copy is a violation of it, publishers etc cannot j "have their cake and eat it" so to speak, if they claim copywrite protection then they must fully comply with ALL of that very law and not place anything in way of archival WORKING backups.

The Protection as I said should have to be in starting/running the program.

Yes I know there will be those that say that then one can install, make a copy, then sell the installed , knowing the way to activite the copy if need install again but thats the software publishers problem, there are ways to ensure that, in past we had like dongels that had to be in a slot like a serial port or such for the program to work etc..

If a publisher can put out a program with a copy protection that both protects from illegal copys etc yet also allows the by LAW right to archival copys fine.

Otherwise then Publishers etc cannot claim any copywrite in my view, you cannot claim it while putting out something that by the way it works violates the same law by taking a legitimate users archival rights away.

Its no joke, I once dropped a Cdrom and it shattered...

If it hadn't been a burned copy of original which was stored away I'd have had a problem using my paid for legitimate program.

Cd burners etc make it easy to copy, high speed ISP makes it easy to download lots of data, etc and that is bad?

They make it easy for Burning ones legitimate copy and safeguarding it as the intent of the archival law is for, and high speed internet is great for many things that has nothing to do with downloading bootleg copies of programs.

Again, copy protection should be more aimed at preventing using a illegal copy then preventing a legitimate owner from his rights under copy write law.

I play a Baseball sim btw, they protect their niche program via a scheme where you can install unlimited times from the CD RoM, however you get a Floppy KEY Disk, your allowed a one time move to the HD the protection,
so you can play it without the key disk, however any future install cannot have the CP passed onto the HD, so its a 1 time thing, now because HD's can fail etc you still can run the game if the HD CP is lost due to a HD problem and a re-install of program but from then on you need to insert the KEY Disk to start the program.

Their Baseball rosters are also protected, you need the Original floppy with its CP to install rosters.

I'm sure it could be cracked, frankly any CP probably at some point can
be cracked but the point here is THAT company is NOT preventing archival copys, I can make copys of the Cdrom install, my only worry would be if they went out of business and I couldn't get the key disk replaced if it goes bad by mailing it in and getting a new one.

There have to be ways to allow archival backups for installing or a copy to use where a cdrom is required in the drive and yet have CP that limits the ability to actually run an illegal copy.

As to Ebay, they nor ISP's can be held accountable, the COURTS have recently ruled it so on peer to peer, for Ebay, they can legally sell things that are salable, the stickling point through is software is licensed, the problem however is theres no clear court rulings on if licenses are really valid, since programs etc are sold like "goods" also I think there needs be some limits on license in that if you sell via a license then your obligated for LIFE or the term set if a license sets a term, to ensure the license holder can use the product, will Matrix be able to provide support to a license buyer say 10 years in future?

I think at the point a licensed product is no longer supported the
license should be no longer restricted, meaning a person could legally sell their lrgitimate copy of program even if license says cannot sell/transfer, if the one giving the license is no longer giving support
then the license is already violated, I expect support from companys for programs I buy as long as I have and use them if no set license lengths in there... it is a LIFETIME license obligating the issuer to support it.

In otherwords, a copy of like SSI carrier force, with zero support to the licensed game owner, shouldn't stand in way of the person selling their legitimate copy of the game to someone with a working Apple or C-64.

So a flat out saying licensed software shouldn't be on such as Ebay is
to me not valid, it might be valid for active supported titles being supported by the publisher etc like Pacific War is currently active supported licensed product, but if Matrix goes out of biz or stops supporting the game, should a person 5 years or less from now be disallowed to sell a working copy on ebay cause its software licensed?

There has to be some common sense here, theres plenty of software sold on ebay no longer active published so the licensed buyers no longer are getting the support for it invalidating the license... I think if it ever goes fully through the courts they may rule against publishers
because the perceived notation is people think of what they buy with money as their property and your able sell property to others, long as its the original media, etc and no copy resides on your PC The courts are likely to rule such sales as legitimate, but i'm no lawyer, irregardless at the least, working software in original media which no longer has any active support, no longer any active publisher etc should be quite legal to sell to anyone but thats my opinion..

In ending, CP has to protect the publishers yes, CP maybe needed Yes, but CP must not infringe on the purchasers of programs LEGAL rights under copywrite law to make workable copys for their own legitimate and personal use, I'm absolute on that and feel any software CP scheme that denys legitimate archival /backup copying as violation of federal law under federal copywrite law.

And we have an right to the legitimate Cd/DVD burners etc, they have real legitimate uses beyond copying software, they are used to backup ones finiancial data, their Documents and other things as much as mere copying some game just bought so use the copy while safeguarding the original...

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(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 20

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 10:02:46 AM

Cmdrcain

Posts: 1161
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From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

"Ebay doesn't sell anything, it facilitates selling"

Bullsh*t

eBay is the seller, and saying otherwise is moronic nitpicking. Without eBay you don't get the sale. Thus you need eBay to make the sale, thus eBay made the sale.
They are responsible for the sale, the sale doesn't happen in their absence.
So insisting that eBay is somehow magically removed set apart, not really responsible is no better than petulant whiny defiance.

Actually, Ebay is more like an AGENT then an actual seller
their more of the status of Auction houses also of the status of classifieds in Papers and More of the status of those free "little papers and such" Flyers printed with things for sale etc...

You would be making every Newspaper, Ad Flyer printer, Auction House, etc Crimnals simply cause their all the "in between" for the sale..

Oh right throw in the Real Estate Agents that help make a sale, taking a commission but who are neither sellers nor buyers..

Frankly, Ebay is the electronic version of like those "auto mart" and other Printed Flyer publishers who list Ad's for a fee and print out a weekly or monthly flyer.

For Ebay to be the Seller , Ebay would need have physical ownership of all they sold and truly own whats sold,they DON'T so your all wrong here.

And Software is only part of whats sold on Ebay..

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Post #: 21

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 10:12:56 AM

Cmdrcain

Posts: 1161
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Home40

"The PC games section is getting smaller and smaller. One of the prime reasons for this is that console games are a much much safer bet for games companies in terms of piracy. "

The other reason is that console games are a safer bet for folks wanting, uncomplicated trouble free entertainment.

People who actually enjoy farting around with their perfidious PCs prolly see defeating copy protection as often the best 'level' of the game.

Copy protection errors can only further tarnish the reputation of PCs as entertainment for the busy parent dollar or the single-mum pound. ;)

h40

I havent't so much seen software sections getting smaller as much As I see more and more software simply Jewel cased.

Think on that for a bit, If its simply a Cdrom in a Box with maybe an Readme slip of paper for late changes if not on the cdrom in its electronic docs then the software box takes up more space then needed..

I think BOXED software is what will be disappear and what IS disappearing but the sections shelves of just Jewelcased Software is GROWING, I see more 9.99-19.99 Jewelcased..

It makes sense, as more games come in just a Cdrom with all docs on the cdrom etc, software sections will grow smaller cause the space needed shrinks as more is simply in a jewel case, and more gets issued box-less...

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Post #: 22

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 4:21:56 PM

Mr.Frag

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I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?

(in reply to Cmdrcain)

Post #: 23

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 5:47:35 PM

SlapBone

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This thread has a Twilight Zone quality to it. We have people who like to download games arguing that we need more copy protection (thus taking the games to a more retail type of distribution), and on the flip side we have people who would like to see more of Matrix' games in retail stores arguing that we need less copy protection.

Back on topic: I can see where Matrix has a potential piracy problem because of the method they chose to distribute their games. With an IP protection like Viatech's Elicense though, instead of having the verification of the key done within the software itself all verification and activation is done from a master server (or over the phone for the people who have dialup). The digital download aspect of Matrix' distribution is already happening so why not find a method that protects it that way. I have talked with people (developers) who are using this method and the going rate is about $5 a copy.

There is also a limit to the amount of licenses that can be active at any one time. The normal limit for the games I've bought, is 2. If I change laptops or have some catastrophic failure, recovering these licenses is pretty painless. There is a handy little software (dll) applet installed into the control panel of the computer that lets you "release" a license in order to move the license to another computer. I generally install all games of these genres (sports sims and hex wargames) on 2 different computers (my home desktop and my laptop). For betas a company can release a 20 or a 50 license key and then revoke it when the beta is over.

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Post #: 24

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 6:55:43 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Question, did you have any trouble logging in to read this post?

If not, good.

Question, if you had to log in to Matrix Games in order to get your purchased game to start, would that be a problem?

Yes?

Ok question, if this made it possible for Matrix Games to sell safely and securely all their games such that effectively they could sell you a same game for half the cost it is now costing them, would that change your mind?

Last question (and this is for the programmer types that might know because I don't).
Is it possible to make software such that it won't run unless something is sent back to the user from the source in order to make the program start.

I for one would not whine if that made game prices plument as if off a high cliff.

Of course, if the prices didn't actually come down in response, I would of course abandon the industry and just play my board games that don't come with all these headaches.

But there you have it, I am willing to give software makers the ability to decide who runs their software and who doesn't.

But is there even a point? Can the pirates merely break that too?
Is anything actually solved?

< Message edited by Hexed Gamer -- 8/24/2004 4:56:05 PM >

(in reply to SlapBone)

Post #: 25

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 7:14:17 PM

dinsdale

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?

Well most publishers will replace broken media as the media itself is not for sale. Usually for postage or some nominal fee.

Frag, the reason software is different is because you're buying a license and not a product. That provides publishers with a lot of exemptions they'd be liable for if they sold goods. They cannot have the benefits of a sale when they also want the protections of a license.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 26

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 8:45:22 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I don't buy that "I broke my CD" stuff ...

Go out and buy a DVD movie. Break it. Take it back to where you bought it. Expect them to give you a replacement for free?

Why should you expect it from Software? What makes them so magically different that they have to offer up a unique service that no other industry on the planet has to?

Well most publishers will replace broken media as the media itself is not for sale. Usually for postage or some nominal fee.

Frag, the reason software is different is because you're buying a license and not a product. That provides publishers with a lot of exemptions they'd be liable for if they sold goods. They cannot have the benefits of a sale when they also want the protections of a license.

Yea, but thats the problem, they had to switch to licence based protection because the existing laws completely blocked their attempts to protect themselves. I'm quite sure that given the choice, they would switch back to sales *if* the law granted them some measure of protection.

As it sits right now, it allows software rental companies to simply buy one copy of the product (and I'll tell you flat out that most didn't even *buy* the product, they get it on consignment and paid nothing) and rent it out to an unlimited number of people (who all made their own copy then returned it). After a while, they simply mark it defective and return it to the wholesaler who dumps it back to the publisher. Net sale = 0

Tell me how that is even remotely fair? Explain how an industry is supposed to stay afloat when that can happen?

I like Matrix's new method ... I download it when I pay for it and I get a licence key that is bound to me in their private forum. The next logical step to this is to make the key expire every 30 days so I have to go back into that private forum that uniquely id's me to the product and get a renewal key. This coupled with private patches that require *your* serial number seems to be the best way to fight this off as Matrix can go sit on the internet and find the serial number of the dirtbags who have donated their key to the world and lock them out for good. Anyone who uses that serial will have a 30 day demo effectively as no updates or extensions come out and the offender *also* looses access. Having to spend 5 minutes once a month to get a little key update so I can continue to use something is trivial from an impact standpoint.

My attitude towards this is "so what if society needs to endure a little bit of pain to fix this. In the end, we will be better off."

Look at the state of DVD movies right now, Piracy is *so* rampant that manufacturers have actually added support to their players for SVCD format disks so you can watch pirated movies. They know the market is gone completely and in order to continue to sell their hardware, they have to suppore pirated media formats just to sell product. Thats a sad state of affairs.

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RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 9:21:30 PM

dinsdale

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
As it sits right now, it allows software rental companies to simply buy one copy of the product (and I'll tell you flat out that most didn't even *buy* the product, they get it on consignment and paid nothing) and rent it out to an unlimited number of people (who all made their own copy then returned it). After a while, they simply mark it defective and return it to the wholesaler who dumps it back to the publisher. Net sale = 0

Tell me how that is even remotely fair? Explain how an industry is supposed to stay afloat when that can happen?

It can't, that's why it's licensed. IMHO we need a new category of sales that would eliminate the EULA, allow fair use and consumer protection, but protect the vendors from fraud and criminalise the piracy and unlicensed sales. I don't think that vendors would be happy with that though, especially if the terms "merchantability" and "fitness for purpose" were included.

quote:

I like Matrix's new method ... I download it when I pay for it and I get a licence key that is bound to me in their private forum. The next logical step to this is to make the key expire every 30 days so I have to go back into that private forum that uniquely id's me to the product and get a renewal key....<SNIP>

Yes, that would certainly be a stronger measure of protection than what's around now. TBH weekly wouldn't be an inconvenience. At some point though, we may have to face the possibility of DRM being imposed at the OS or hardware level. That might be great for the makers of Doom, but not for Matrix where the costs might outweight the benefits.

I'd like to think that the vast majority of gamers who buy Matrix products are responsible enough to not be pirates. I just can't imagine someone stealing Doom and War In The Pacific, it just doesn't seem to fit.

quote:

My attitude towards this is "so what if society needs to endure a little bit of pain to fix this. In the end, we will be better off."

Well I don't think society should be concerned with private business, especially not hobbies. I do not think it fair that others subsidise what I enjoy playing.

quote:

<...re DVD's>Thats a sad state of affairs.

I agree, but it's the industry's problem. If I hung $20 bills out on my front lawn and acted surprised and hurt that people were stealing them, I doubt I would have the audacity to whine about it to you. In their rush to ensure that DVD regions would protect the right for gouging (preventing someone in England from buying cheaper in the US etc) they never considered piracy or a solution to it. IMHO, the DVD industry is reaping what it sowed and deserves every penny they lose.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 28

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/24/2004 11:33:15 PM

Home40

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"I havent't so much seen software sections getting smaller as much As I see more and more software simply Jewel cased. " Nice one - the dangers of anecdotal evidence... .

'Make this point every time this property rights/MP3/downloading/copying stuff comes up:

Once perfect anti-electronic-media-theft has been achieved and everyone who plays/listens/watches is a paying customer, I really wonder if the industry truly will be awash with untapped wealth or merely sqeezing more from a smaller audience. I really doubt a simple 5 million PC owners = 5 million customers. How many households bought machines with piracy aforethought (including console 'chipping') and otherwise would retire from cyberspace if they had to pay through-the-nose withal?

How many drivers if no more second hand deals?

Perhaps it doesn't apply to niches such as some Matrixgames titles... but then again... .

I'm sure most pll prefer to buy legit stuff but will use hooky gear if it means not going without. I'm sure a lot of ppl are consuming half lifetimes of 'stolen' DVDs and games when their pockets are telling them to watch state TV or read library books instead but who are also buying legit wares along the way.

The way I see it you have the free market and you have the flea market like two rails of a railway track: take one away and you might as well walk.

h40

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Post #: 29

RE: StarForce - The Other Side of CP Story - Thoughts ?? - 8/25/2004 12:13:21 AM

Mr.Frag

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I wonder just how many people would have actually bought computers in the last 5 years had the guys selling them *also* said "Oh, by the way, the price of the computer you are buying today is nothing compared to what you will pay for software over the life of the computer"

So many times I have heard "Oh, don't worry about that, I have a friend ..."

It's like an entire generation expects free movies, free music, free software, free whatever...

(in reply to Home40)

Post #: 30