Japanese ASW

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Japanese ASW

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Japanese ASW - 8/28/2004 1:53:37 PM

Buchon

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Wich was the japanese ASW doctrine during the Pacific Campaign?
And, specially, was it effective?
Which are the possibilities to hit an Allied sub with each type of japanese plane capable of ASW missions?

Post #: 1

RE: Japanese ASW - 8/28/2004 3:06:10 PM

Tiornu

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There was no Japanese ASW doctrine. That's not merely overstatement; that's the way it really was. Pre-war planning for merchant traffic was a joke, anti-submarine equipment was crude (by Japanese assessment at the time!), and the allocation of surface and aerial escorts never approached the adequate. Training barely qualified as rudimentary. Administration of the merchant marine came via three-way tug-of-war (army, navy, civilian). If you can find a copy of Reevaluating Major Naval Combatants of World War II by Sadkovich, you'll find a concise overview of this topic.

(in reply to Buchon)

Post #: 2

RE: Japanese ASW - 8/28/2004 6:43:11 PM

Nikademus

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Japanese ASW was not greatly effective at war's start mainly due to the emphasis on training for offensive minded missions. Not alot of thought was put into ASW defense as a whole though there were exceptions to the rule and some
IJN DD's were good at what they did when facing a sub.

Overall though Japanese ASW tactics were more concerned with briefly holding a sub down or chasing it off (while the primary target, usually a warship, moved off at high speed) vs hunting it down to ehaustion. (similar to the Allies until midwar at least). Often an intruder sub might be subjected to a few halfhearted DC attacks and then would be able to sneak off reletively easily. The Japanese relied mainly on hydrophones were often not very effective and were only good to out around 1000 yards. Sonar was available but IIRC only 20 DD's were equipped with it at war's start and the sets were rudimentary at best and further development was retarded by higher priority items and issues. "Game wise" you'll find that Japanese ASW will be most dangerous in shallow water hexes and/or areas that are heavily patrolled by aircraft. Deep water will often prevent a sub from being crippled if hit at all and a player will usually be able to move the sub out of danger if it is being stalked by an ASW TF.

Tactics wise, the biggest fobile was that the Japanese often set their DC's to explode at too shallow a depth thx to faulty intel regarding the diving capabilities of USN submarines. Dont have the exact %'s in regards to Japanese aircraft hitting. It mainly depends on the exp of the unit in question but overall they are fairly capable of getting a hit if the Allied player leaves subs lurking around areas that are heavily patrolled. Dont expect too many "hits" though....the primary value of air ASW is to prevent subs from making attacks on ships and thats whats really important

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 8/28/2004 4:43:37 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Japanese ASW - 8/30/2004 5:16:34 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

The Japanese relied mainly on hydrophones were often not very effective and were only good to out around 1000 yards.

"The Japanese did not have American sonar but they did have their own echo-ranging system, which was accurate to 3,000 meters. The old-fashioned hydrophones were able to obtain a bearing at five thousand meters". Submarines at War by Edwin P. Hoyt page 105.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 4

RE: Japanese ASW - 8/30/2004 5:29:46 AM

mogami

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Hi, It was late 1943 before Japan decided that maybe they should escort their convoys. They formed a new HQ to oversee this but the IJN was reluctant to part with escorts in any number. (Fleet DD)
In WITP most Japanese form an ad Hoc escort HQ on turn 1 and depending on player decide to escort convoy from the start. It should be expected as a result the Allied player will lose an increased amount of submarines compared to the 52 lost actually. The Allied player may as a result need to change somewhat the manner he employs submarines.

Allied changes I make.

1. Less use of older boats in advanced areas. Of course at start your forced into using older boats but you have to make provisions for their safety. Don't send them to areas where Japanese ASW efforts are easy. You know the Japanese are going to set up ASW air patrols and near major bases have ASW TF out from the start. Don't just run boats to these areas.

2. Pay attention to your boats. If they are spotted move them far enough away that the enemy will have to refind them. (Hint: your boat is spotted when it conducts an attack regardless of whether it was spotted prior)

3. Station them outside patrol range. Mavis can patrol normal range of 13. ASW is effective to half that. Station boats 7 hexes from bases using Mavis for patrol. It is also harder for the base to form ASW TF when you are that far out.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/29/2004 10:30:50 PM >

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 5

RE: Japanese ASW - 8/30/2004 7:16:30 AM

esteban

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Joined: 7/21/2004
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Also, there is a bug in the game that needs fixing. Whenever you put a submarine TF in an enemy base hex in a PBEM game, that TF is automatically spotted and remains spotted while in the hex.

So keep your subs out of enemy base hexes.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 6