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RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH

 
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RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 3:31:02 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, 12k is pretty far out. If you are spotting a 80 foot boat painted haze grey at 12k you are doing quite well. Just how far do you think the horizon at sea on a clear day is?

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Post #: 121
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 11:13:34 AM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		depends from a lot factors... the high of the lookout (BB could look farer as a destroyer)...

the pt-boat-thing is difficulty... for me it should depend in what area you use it... in shallow water with a lot small islands to hide, they should be more effective, say they get a better chance to fire their torpedos...

in the mediteran and in the german sea/atlantic area, there was heavy fightings with s-boats/mtb´s...

at day in open calm waters mtb vers. a well protected convoi or even a battle fleet should be dead meat, againt them in a foggy night with many islands and with luck, it is different. But at day a mtb attacking yamato sucks... there is literally no chance for sucsess (maybe all sailors are drunken from sake, okay.)

Maybe some here have seen to much pr-movies a la MTB at Bataan with the Duke... Did he not kill a cruiser in it ?

just kidding, i have in the game zero experience with them, as the allies i do not use em and gladly i did not see such results as the japanese. But, if you send an unescorted convoy of troop ships and get ambushed by 10 pt´s you have to expect some damages.....

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Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 122
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 4:34:45 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		As for the claim that PT boats are only seen at 3k, try again, I have encounters at 6 thousand and 8 thousand yards.

Maybe if the people making these wild claims would actually watch what happens with PT boats, they would understand that they are a nuasance but if the Japanese player isnt doing stupid things with his fleets thats all they are.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 123
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 6:25:43 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 12k is pretty far out. If you are spotting a 80 foot boat painted haze grey at 12k you are doing quite well. Just how far do you think the horizon at sea on a clear day is?


Well, it's at least 26,000 yards Mogami, as HMS Warspite hit an Italian BB at that range
in the Med. And while the boat may be grey, the wake and bow wave it's kicking up
certainly aren't. PT's just simply shouldn't be even trying to engage Combat Ships in
daylight.

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Post #: 124
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 6:54:57 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, There is no such answer to "How far away is the horizon"

the distance to the horizon is about 1.17 times the square root of height of observer (in feet) above sea level. (the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle.)

Warspite seeing enemy BB was not Warspite seeing horizon but over the horizon.
You would not see the bow wave or wake of a ship over the horizon and a PT boat lowers the horizon by considerably less then a BB would. 2 BB looking at each other can see much farther then a BB looking for a PT boat or a DD force looking for PT approaching.

If the lookout is 60 feet above sea level he can see a horizon 10 miles away but he could see a major ship or the smoke of a TF much further.

None of this is considering the weather conditions or sea state. High seas lower the distance to the horizon and parallax on hazy days or even whether or not the TF you are trying to spot has the sun behind it. In other words there are times a TF of BB cannot see one ather at 5 miles and times where they can each other at 20. How do you think ships even today on clear days manage to collide? Ships that paint their superstructure white or blue or gray are harder to spot then ships that paint them dark red.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 125
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 7:01:58 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

For what it may be worth () I'll chime in. Accurate PT modelling seems hampered by the naval combat model. They were not exactly ocean-going fleet units, but they are modelled as such in the game.

If kept as they are, they (PT missions) should probably be restricted to combat operations in coastal hexes ONLY, if possible to programme. PTs should not be allowed in any other type of TF. Some sort of solution would be needed for transit between bases through open ocean hexes, perhaps ability to disband back onto AKs).

PT missions should have a size limit, perhaps maximum of six or so.

PT torp attack accuracy should be greatly reduced, as they did not have torpedo directors as did DDs, or TDCs as did subs...they basically just pointed and let loose if I understand correctly.

Probability of duds should be high for USN surface vessel torpedoes as well, but they don't appear to have a dud rate at the moment (USN Mk 8 and 15 torps used on PTs and surface combatants sucked almost as bad as the Mk 14s used by subs and were as bad as the Mk 13s used by aircraft).

Somehow, PTs should suffer a "bonus" (defenders secondary and tertiary weapons) fire round in order to close during daylight combat.




I don't see what these above points have to do with the Japanese player behaving in an over aggressive manner. The WITP PTs have been modelled without many of their historic disadvantages,either physical or operational. Fix it or don't. Just don't feed me a bunch of overly zealous defensive posts highlighting player failures. Pointing out these player failings and ignoring honest design oversights helps nothing.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 126
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 7:11:28 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		PT boats COULD operate in the open waters away from the coast. Or are you claiming otherwise?

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 127
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 7:17:18 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Well Ron I am Japan in 7 out of 10 PBEM game I have going currently and if no one had posted a thread about "Uber" PT boats I would not have known there was a such a beast.
If groups of players get differing results on a constant basis is it the game?

There are the Japanese "Ah crap PT boats are too strong"
and the Japanese "PT boats? what PT boats?"

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/6/2004 12:18:55 PM >

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 128
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 7:34:28 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

PT boats COULD operate in the open waters away from the coast. Or are you claiming otherwise?


My suggestion for only coastal combat ops is meant to tether player use of PTs to a more historical level. Games are always designed with too much freedom allowed for units as they simply quote performance stats and rarely model operational restrictions. The fact that PT Boats travelled out of sight of land does not mean they conducted combat ops like major fleet units. SCs where open sea capable but were utilized near bases due to range and seaworthiness limitations.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 129
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 8:01:30 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		well, playing both sides, i think if the things in this thread are true they are wrong.

As i wrote, John Wayne-Propaganda movies have nothing to do with real life. Sure, people who WANT the MTBs "überships" may think they should stay (attention, this is made under the suggestion that the "problem" is really a problem and not a real bad luck event).

We have a lot of factors NOT in the game... like weather (you know, some of the lesser designed destroyers sunk in heavy storms) Weather is fine for flying, but i never saw something that simulate the problem of heavy weather in the ocean (like scattering a convoi... now, here you have a great situation for mtb...)

But this lacking of such features (why ? i think not only the capability of carriers to fly in heavy sea is important (here the brits should get a AAA) but also the other ships... some freighters should sunk in storm, some warships are useless in heavy sea (yes, mtb, destroyers (again, british destroyers should be able to fight at a much higher level as the destroyers of the other nations) or even cruisers and battleships (not so seaworthy ships like IOWA would hit nothing in really rough sea - she is just to narrow for such weather... ) Just look what happened in the atlantic as german "heavy" destroyers fought against "inferior" british destroyers... these ships could aim and fire and hit, the german larger 6"-dd´s had to withdraw... they were too heavy and overbuilt (like the early japanese dd´s and some fletcher-class dd´s (too much eggs in the basket) and some japanese cruisers))

an american pt-boat in open sea in a storm is sunk - at last at a very high rate... these OPEN wood built ships are not really seaworthy. I think a penalty like in Civilisation with the greek ship (farer away as 3 steps and the ship sink with 50%) would solve this problem. That has nothing to do with "fanboy-hood"... or i wish the yamato as a flying kamikaze that i could crash into "USA" and kill all resource/supply Just kidding.

Seriously, i can´t say i saw such strange results, but if they happen, with calm sea, clear sky and a significant defence force (destroyer/cruisers) with air cover, it is a bug.

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 130
RE: IT IS FRIGGIN BAD ENOUGH - 9/6/2004 9:52:56 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		There is another thread where anyone that wants may post actual combat results of PT battles, None posted to date show any big problem with PT boats.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 131
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