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RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more complex games

 
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RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 12:18:47 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Yep, sounds like Zoomie is gonna be busy. Get to work, buddy!

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 31
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 12:36:46 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Yep, sounds like Zoomie is gonna be busy. Get to work, buddy!


But I have 1235 turns to get through yet....................

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 32
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 12:40:56 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.


What have golf clubs got to do with AI?

_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 33
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 1:42:22 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.


What have golf clubs got to do with AI?



Absolutely nothing at all

Storage of data has nothing to do with code function at all. Frankly, as long as the data structure is fast, it has no bearing on anything. It could just as simply be stored in XML or as java objects

(in reply to Bodhi)
Post #: 34
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 2:28:38 AM   
irishman


Posts: 256
Joined: 6/13/2004
From: Emerald Isle
Status: offline 		How about simply paying Mogami to become a professional player? Pretend there's an AI but secretly e-mail him every turn. Say 1p per turn ? 1000 turns per day?

_____________________________

The greater the difficulty, the greater the glory - Cicero

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 35
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 2:35:32 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

But it would be nice if you could get it to the point where if it "gets hurt" a couple
of times in an area, it would try to avoid that area while beating down whatever
unit(s) were causing it's pain. If a child can learn to avoid a hot stove, it would
seem that an AI could be programmed to avoid sailing TF after TF into harms way
without taking the slightest action to suppress or eliminate the source of the harm.
It does have access to ALL the information in the game.


Mike, that logic would be completely valid if the AI tracked multiple turns worth of events. It could see that there was a problem "Stove is hot" and remember "I got burned here last time" coupled with a reverse trigger event "stove is cold now". Thats a reactionary system where things become learned based on things going wrong.

I don't think the WitP engine runs as a reactionary system. It seems to be an evaluation type system where it checks each turn to see if a set of conditions exist that would warrant a change "Air Bal = xxx" and chooses to do something else.

To get such a system, the game would have to track trends. That tracking obviously increases the memory and horsepower requirements in an exponential scale. (the farther you track, the more it increases). I doubt very much that type of system (although it would be fantastic) can be done on a PC based platform beyond more then a hundred units or so. WitP has roughly 12,000 ships/planes/ground units.

I'm all for it, but I think we are still years away from the horsepower required.


A reasonable answer, FRAG. So basically the problem is that the "danger reccognition"
loop in the programming isn't sensitive enough as it stands now? And that it doesn't
communicate with the "attack planning sub-routine" well enough to tell it "dangerous
concentration of enemy force here..., do something about it". Still seems as if some
"tweeking" could make it more responsive to the fact that it has placed it's manhood
in a meatgrinder and the crank is being turned every day.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 36
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 3:38:32 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

A reasonable answer, FRAG. So basically the problem is that the "danger reccognition"
loop in the programming isn't sensitive enough as it stands now? And that it doesn't
communicate with the "attack planning sub-routine" well enough to tell it "dangerous
concentration of enemy force here..., do something about it". Still seems as if some
"tweeking" could make it more responsive to the fact that it has placed it's manhood
in a meatgrinder and the crank is being turned every day.


Yep, but there is always a counter balancing risk to these changes. The AI could become so worried about protecting itself that it will no longer come out and play.

It's a balance act between "aggressive and reckless" vs "careful and unmoving"

Both extremes can be bad or good depending on the right time. Where humans have the advantage over all AI's is we can do both at once because we are thinking much longer term.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 37
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 5:32:50 AM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.


What have golf clubs got to do with AI?



Absolutely nothing at all

Storage of data has nothing to do with code function at all. Frankly, as long as the data structure is fast, it has no bearing on anything. It could just as simply be stored in XML or as java objects


I am suprised Zoomie hasn't nailed you on this one. The value of an RDBMS implementation is in the flexibility that it gives you for manipulation of data. How much space it takes, and even how fast it is are secondary to how quickly you can write the code.

- The best architecture for this kind of game is a pay-per-month game, where *all* data is hosted by the game provider on application servers with an SQL back end. You pays or you no plays.
- No counterfeiting cuz the game is worthless without the servers.
- It would probably run from your web browser - and it will have a better interface because programmers will be able to leverage the web forms capabilities of application servers to produce the interface changes almost as fast as users can request them.
- No OOB/restart issues will exist, because servers can be updated more easily. Fixing a problem in the OOB is an SQL statement.
- You will be able to have people entering turns at the same time, rather than taking turns.
- You will be able to do cooperative development of scenarios. You won't be making a list of changes and sending it to pry, or whoever, you will enter changes directly into the scenario.
- The speed of your machine will matter far less, because the AI isn't running on your machine.
- The AI can be changed on the fly to add capabilities.

BTW, I am quite happy with WitP. I just see alot that could be done with the right architecture.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 38
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 5:52:01 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.


What have golf clubs got to do with AI?



Absolutely nothing at all

Storage of data has nothing to do with code function at all. Frankly, as long as the data structure is fast, it has no bearing on anything. It could just as simply be stored in XML or as java objects


I am suprised Zoomie hasn't nailed you on this one. The value of an RDBMS implementation is in the flexibility that it gives you for manipulation of data. How much space it takes, and even how fast it is are secondary to how quickly you can write the code.

- The best architecture for this kind of game is a pay-per-month game, where *all* data is hosted by the game provider on application servers with an SQL back end. You pays or you no plays.
- No counterfeiting cuz the game is worthless without the servers.
- It would probably run from your web browser - and it will have a better interface because programmers will be able to leverage the web forms capabilities of application servers to produce the interface changes almost as fast as users can request them.
- No OOB/restart issues will exist, because servers can be updated more easily. Fixing a problem in the OOB is an SQL statement.
- You will be able to have people entering turns at the same time, rather than taking turns.
- You will be able to do cooperative development of scenarios. You won't be making a list of changes and sending it to pry, or whoever, you will enter changes directly into the scenario.
- The speed of your machine will matter far less, because the AI isn't running on your machine.
- The AI can be changed on the fly to add capabilities.

BTW, I am quite happy with WitP. I just see alot that could be done with the right architecture.


Everything you have mentioned applies to online rpg games, not a single aspect of it has any meaning to a war game where static units with static abilities move around a static map. Online games are *not* time based. Things can change all the time and it makes no difference. On a side note, paying someone else to have a cpu to run your game on costs money *forever*. If you want to pay $20 a month forever to play, thats fine. I'm sure 2by3 would *love* to switch over to subscription fees and just keep milking you for more money each month for a token feature like the online games do.

In a war game you have a set number of things that you use based on time. The only way to change a unit is to go back in time before the unit was ever used to allow it to be used. Sorry, but that is the very nature of time based games. You can't undo a problem in the past without throwing away everything beyond that point in time (restart).

by the way, anyone who talks about using relational databases to handle a lousy 2 megs of data is a space cadet

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 9/3/2004 10:59:11 PM >

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 39
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 6:12:25 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		Let me say something nice about the AI here.

Most games have a very passive AI. The AI in WITP is willing to take some risks, and willing to do something reckless on occasion. That is a big plus.

When it does do something aggressive it tends to do it in force (like with all its CVs in one big group)

Hooray for a non-wuss AI!

_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 40
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 8:26:03 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.


What have golf clubs got to do with AI?



Absolutely nothing at all

Storage of data has nothing to do with code function at all. Frankly, as long as the data structure is fast, it has no bearing on anything. It could just as simply be stored in XML or as java objects


Design of data management has a GREAT DEAL to do with how applications code functions. It also has a great deal to do with the amount of data you can manage. There is a REASON why financial settlement systems that deal with BILLIONS of data elements a day, use RDBMS databases and not assinine DOS style fixed, integral indexed arrays, to access and manipulate data and do so utilizing dyanamic containers. Every hear of a 'friggin' hash table? Bet this bunch hasn't!

What the hell is a "java object"? I have coded in Java for many years now, and I use all sorts of class object instances. I guess since they are all defined in Java, that makes them "java objects"? You talking Message Driven Beans? XLTS display objects? What?

Geez, stick what you know. Whatever that is.....

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 41
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 8:31:52 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.


What have golf clubs got to do with AI?



Absolutely nothing at all

Storage of data has nothing to do with code function at all. Frankly, as long as the data structure is fast, it has no bearing on anything. It could just as simply be stored in XML or as java objects


I am suprised Zoomie hasn't nailed you on this one. The value of an RDBMS implementation is in the flexibility that it gives you for manipulation of data. How much space it takes, and even how fast it is are secondary to how quickly you can write the code.

- The best architecture for this kind of game is a pay-per-month game, where *all* data is hosted by the game provider on application servers with an SQL back end. You pays or you no plays.
- No counterfeiting cuz the game is worthless without the servers.
- It would probably run from your web browser - and it will have a better interface because programmers will be able to leverage the web forms capabilities of application servers to produce the interface changes almost as fast as users can request them.
- No OOB/restart issues will exist, because servers can be updated more easily. Fixing a problem in the OOB is an SQL statement.
- You will be able to have people entering turns at the same time, rather than taking turns.
- You will be able to do cooperative development of scenarios. You won't be making a list of changes and sending it to pry, or whoever, you will enter changes directly into the scenario.
- The speed of your machine will matter far less, because the AI isn't running on your machine.
- The AI can be changed on the fly to add capabilities.

BTW, I am quite happy with WitP. I just see alot that could be done with the right architecture.


Think you hit a lot of it right on the head. Highly distributed, virtual gaming systems are the norm nowadays in FPS and even some RTS games. They play VERY WELL in this genre as well. Probably even better. Wolfpack pioneered turn based wargaming via Internet servers over a DOZEN YEARS AGO. They use MySQL base servers. They simply lacked resources and programming expertise. But their concept was solid.

I absolutely believe this is the long range future of this genre of gaming. We simply have yet to get that spark. Sounds like something BEGGING for a SourceForge project....

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 42
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 8:39:11 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.


What have golf clubs got to do with AI?



Absolutely nothing at all

Storage of data has nothing to do with code function at all. Frankly, as long as the data structure is fast, it has no bearing on anything. It could just as simply be stored in XML or as java objects


I am suprised Zoomie hasn't nailed you on this one. The value of an RDBMS implementation is in the flexibility that it gives you for manipulation of data. How much space it takes, and even how fast it is are secondary to how quickly you can write the code.

- The best architecture for this kind of game is a pay-per-month game, where *all* data is hosted by the game provider on application servers with an SQL back end. You pays or you no plays.
- No counterfeiting cuz the game is worthless without the servers.
- It would probably run from your web browser - and it will have a better interface because programmers will be able to leverage the web forms capabilities of application servers to produce the interface changes almost as fast as users can request them.
- No OOB/restart issues will exist, because servers can be updated more easily. Fixing a problem in the OOB is an SQL statement.
- You will be able to have people entering turns at the same time, rather than taking turns.
- You will be able to do cooperative development of scenarios. You won't be making a list of changes and sending it to pry, or whoever, you will enter changes directly into the scenario.
- The speed of your machine will matter far less, because the AI isn't running on your machine.
- The AI can be changed on the fly to add capabilities.

BTW, I am quite happy with WitP. I just see alot that could be done with the right architecture.


Everything you have mentioned applies to online rpg games, not a single aspect of it has any meaning to a war game where static units with static abilities move around a static map. Online games are *not* time based. Things can change all the time and it makes no difference. On a side note, paying someone else to have a cpu to run your game on costs money *forever*. If you want to pay $20 a month forever to play, thats fine. I'm sure 2by3 would *love* to switch over to subscription fees and just keep milking you for more money each month for a token feature like the online games do.

In a war game you have a set number of things that you use based on time. The only way to change a unit is to go back in time before the unit was ever used to allow it to be used. Sorry, but that is the very nature of time based games. You can't undo a problem in the past without throwing away everything beyond that point in time (restart).

by the way, anyone who talks about using relational databases to handle a lousy 2 megs of data is a space cadet


The primary use of the RDBMS is for the AI. With today's high performance RDBMS system we can store litterally TRILLIONS of rows of AI data with near INSTANIOUS access. All these AI concepts we;ve seen folks talk about here recently require massive data storage with quick access for AI purposes.

We can also store thousands of users individual game data elements and do so on powerful multi processor XEON based or powerful Unix servers. And that includes the graphic elements of these games as well.

And why the hell does this game use BMP's?

And why is my CPU always stuck at 90% with this game loaded?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 43
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 11:53:31 AM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
by the way, anyone who talks about using relational databases to handle a lousy 2 megs of data is a space cadet


For those of you wondering why Frag gets so much flak from some of us, it is for comments like this. Yes, he has spent a great deal of time helping the player community. Yes, he knows a lot about the game. None of that entitles him to belittle an opinion and it invites name calling and threads spiraling out of control. Nuff said.

As for the issue of whether it makes sense to use an RDBMS for 2 megs of data? There is only one litmus test for using an RDBMS: Would it make it faster to program the game? Many of the enhancement requests I've seen have been for showing more data and allowing for more filtering. Want to add more data to a display, like adding the airops, landcombat, surface, admin, and aggressiveness ratings to the leader selection window? Here is what I would have to do:

Add 5 columns to a select clause. (5min?)
Copy the presentation style for the existing columns (1 min)
Regenerate and redeploy the object to the server (1 min)

In under 10 minutes the feature could be added - and take effect for every user the moment I deploy the object to the server.

Oh, and btw, everyone wants filtering... I've got a new CV TF I want to create. Gimme a list of all Japanese naval leaders with leadership greater than 55, Inspiration greater than 55, airops greater than 60 and aggressiveness greater than 60 that are not currently commanding anything. Using indexed arrays, the code to accomplish it is alot more time consuming to write than it is with an RDBMS. Someone that wants to code the equivalent in C++, I'm too lazy and can't take the time. For me, it would be 1 line of code to allow that kind of filtering.

WitP and similar wargames are about managing largish amounts of data. Anyone that belittles the use of a tool that is universally used in business for managing data needs to rethink that position.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 44
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 12:54:40 PM   
vorkosigan


Posts: 28
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Barcelona, Spain
Status: offline 		Seems that this discussion is gaining momentum...

quote:

A unit is defined as the smallest element capable of independant action.


Let's call that 'agent'.

quote:

Anything smaller is simply an element of a unit as it can not act on it's own and does not need to be tracked.


True also, but note that, in WITP, most of the items on the game are elements. And you, while playing, usually combine several units and 'elements' and make up a new 'unit' - i.e. a CVBG. You basically build an 'agent' from those little ( or not so little) odds and ends - you set it with some objectives and set it to make it or fail. But that is in the game just for you - not for the computer. The computer does not need nor appreciate all that richness and detail. What on one side is 'chromed' to appeal the WWII buff, on the other side can - and should - be readily abstracted or simplified.

So saying that a current desktop computer can't handle planning and task assignment and design for 12,0000 'agents' is true (you would need something like ASCI White). But you don't need so much critters all the time ;)

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 45
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 2:43:27 PM   
vorkosigan


Posts: 28
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Barcelona, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Sounds like the starting material for a SourceForge project???


Why not? But let's develop the discussion a bit further...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius
These posts are on the second page of the thread entitled "AI/No AI" in the WIF forum. See

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=640847


I will read that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
And once again, his "memory" take seems taylor made for employing the use of an RDBMS and a client-server architecture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Frag
Storage of data has nothing to do with code function at all. Frankly, as long as the data structure is fast, it has no bearing on anything. It could just as simply be stored in XML or as java objects

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
I am suprised Zoomie hasn't nailed you on this one. The value of an RDBMS implementation is in the flexibility that it gives you for manipulation of data. How much space it takes, and even how fast it is are secondary to how quickly you can write the code.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Frag
In a war game you have a set number of things that you use based on time. The only way to change a unit is to go back in time before the unit was ever used to allow it to be used. Sorry, but that is the very nature of time based games. You can't undo a problem in the past without throwing away everything beyond that point in time (restart).

by the way, anyone who talks about using relational databases to handle a lousy 2 megs of data is a space cadet


quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
The primary use of the RDBMS is for the AI. With today's high performance RDBMS system we can store litterally TRILLIONS of rows of AI data with near INSTANIOUS access. All these AI concepts we;ve seen folks talk about here recently require massive data storage with quick access for AI purposes.

We can also store thousands of users individual game data elements and do so on powerful multi processor XEON based or powerful Unix servers. And that includes the graphic elements of these games as well.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
For those of you wondering why Frag gets so much flak from some of us, it is for comments like this. Yes, he has spent a great deal of time helping the player community. Yes, he knows a lot about the game. None of that entitles him to belittle an opinion and it invites name calling and threads spiraling out of control. Nuff said.

As for the issue of whether it makes sense to use an RDBMS for 2 megs of data? There is only one litmus test for using an RDBMS: Would it make it faster to program the game? Many of the enhancement requests I've seen have been for showing more data and allowing for more filtering. Want to add more data to a display, like adding the airops, landcombat, surface, admin, and aggressiveness ratings to the leader selection window? Here is what I would have to do:


I am always marveled on the amount of lag one gets on discussions when several TZ's away

I agree with both Oznoyng and Zoomie on the RDBMS issue: RDBMS are perfect for becoming the 'storage facility' of a 'high-tech' AI agent knowledge-base. The idea is not new: when people working on machine reasoning grew tired of brown-outs wiping out several hours of 'knowledge programming' they turned to the efficient persistence offered by DBMS.

I agree with Mr. Frag that someone that buys an Oracle license (or sets up a PostgreSQL server or even a MySQL server) for managing 2 megs of data is a 'space cadet' (a donkey we would say here on Spain). But:

i/ You will be managing more than 2 megs of data. Apart from the obvious (the OOB) there is the information one gathers as you play the game. For instace: "I got four hits on the Lexington and was set aflame" or "a convoy of AK's was detected on x,y heading west". If you have this information efficiently stored and properly indexed for fast retrieval you can set on top of that a reasoner - something simple like Prolog - and get the AI to make 'smart' chainings like: 'Since I beat the crap out of Lexington, it might be that now we have carrier superiority in the area' or 'I will dispatch two B-25 squadrons for a night raid over Rabaul port facilities, since Rabaul is in a straight line from (x,y) to the west'. Plain, unstructured blobs sequentially stored on a file is right for storing an FPS texture DB - but in this case something more sophisticated is needed.

ii/ You can use a 'lightweight' RDBMS - such as SQLite. I have personally worked with it and it's fast, SQL compliant an most important, easy to adapt to your needs. And last but not least, it sports LGPL.

PS: I appreciate very much Mr. Frag combativeness.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 46
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 2:56:25 PM   
vorkosigan


Posts: 28
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Barcelona, Spain
Status: offline 		And there is an example of this 'logicist' approach applied to wargames. Even delivered through Matrixgames: Campaigns on the Danube.

A friend of mine owns it and always is commenting on its AI outstanding 'situational awareness'.

< Message edited by vorkosigan -- 9/4/2004 2:19:08 PM >

(in reply to vorkosigan)
Post #: 47
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 4:01:11 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vorkosigan
I agree with Mr. Frag that someone that buys an Oracle license (or sets up a PostgreSQL server or even a MySQL server) for managing 2 megs of data is a 'space cadet' (a donkey we would say here on Spain). But:

Yes and No. For running a few thousand games and acting as the storage facility for those, Oracle would be a good choice.

For a client-only version of the game like WitP, I would use Sybase iAnywhere. Last I checked, you can use a runtime version of the engine and distribute it with your app for free. The runtime version does not allow schema changes. The entire engine resides in around a meg of disk space and there are no complex install routines. You develop your schema with the full engine, then just copy the .db file and use it with the runtime engine.

I set up a database for WitP data in iAnywhere. I exported data from the scenario files and I can now get all kinds reports that you can't get out of the game. I wanted a list of IJA Fighter group commanders that I wanted to look at as replacement candidates, so I wrote a quick query, and got the attachment below. It is a list of all IJA air units that have a leader with overall skill or inpiration less than 55, airops or aggressiveness less than 60, or administration less than 30. Sorry in advance for the sucky formatting, I do not have the web-enabled version of Powerbuilder at home.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to vorkosigan)
Post #: 48
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 6:10:05 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		This all sounds great but doya think it will actually happen? I probably have a better chance of drilling Dana Delaney than seeing this come to pass.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 49
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 6:24:21 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

This all sounds great but doya think it will actually happen? I probably have a better chance of drilling Dana Delaney than seeing this come to pass.


In a word, yes. As much as it pains me to admit it, Zoomie is right about a few things. One of them is that an RDBMS would make programming a game like WitP much easier. In a world where the costs of developing games are mostly labor ones, it will all go overseas and/or will leverage tools more to make it easier to do. In the world of pirating, the architecture that has the logic centrally located on servers that can't be copied is the one that will make the most money. Finally, a game that you pay for on a monthly basis will be updated, fixed, etc. One where you pays your money and gets what you gets is less likely to be updated.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 50
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 6:25:07 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		You can disagree all you want, but do it from a factual basis.

Go into your WitP save directly. Look at the size of the file. Now that we are talking facts instead of fiction ... would you again care to discuss the amount of actual data involved?

Now, when one removes string names from that data (which is roughly 50% of the actual data) and gets down to real "data" that needs to be manipulated and remove all the whitespace, you are in the 500k range.

To deal with this 500K worth of data, you want to impose a 200+ meg overhead? *that* is what defines a space cadet

just for the "touchy" folks ... a "space cadet" is someone who chooses the most complex and costly method of doing something just to show how smart they are instead of using the simplest and most efficent method.

Now, if and when a game comes out that is *bigger* then WitP, perhaps we can revisit the use of an "normalized" database.

Not to mention the humor aspect of this, whats the going price for Oracle, Sybase, DB/2, Informix, MSSQL, etc? Think you can fit a runtime + connect licence into that $70 game price?

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 51
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 6:39:24 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I'd go for the billing concept. Sure would be cool if games like this could be less a labour of love and more a profit venture. I also like the possibility it provides for redesign, as design rigidity is why I cooled on certain aspects of the game. If it was generating regular cash flow it would not be too naive to think that it would not be prohibitive to reevaluate various decisions.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 52
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 10:33:45 PM   
vorkosigan


Posts: 28
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Barcelona, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You can disagree all you want, but do it from a factual basis.

Go into your WitP save directly. Look at the size of the file. Now that we are talking facts instead of fiction ... would you again care to discuss the amount of actual data involved?

Now, when one removes string names from that data (which is roughly 50% of the actual data) and gets down to real "data" that needs to be manipulated and remove all the whitespace, you are in the 500k range.

To deal with this 500K worth of data, you want to impose a 200+ meg overhead? *that* is what defines a space cadet

just for the "touchy" folks ... a "space cadet" is someone who chooses the most complex and costly method of doing something just to show how smart they are instead of using the simplest and most efficent method.

Now, if and when a game comes out that is *bigger* then WitP, perhaps we can revisit the use of an "normalized" database.

Not to mention the humor aspect of this, whats the going price for Oracle, Sybase, DB/2, Informix, MSSQL, etc? Think you can fit a runtime + connect licence into that $70 game price?


I do not wish to get involved in a flame war. Seems that nobody read my posts carefully or did not understand anything -> I do not understand why Mr. Frag tries to outmaneuver my points just using the same arguments I do. Did you bother to visit the SQLite site? And skim over the documentation? Or taking a look into code examples? Or cared to briefly ponder what means no license fee at all?

What angers me a bit is that predisposition to label people with different ideas as loonies, nit-pickers or *space cadets*. And then that self-sufficiency implicit in the "it works, ain't touch it" statement. It does not work at all - it barely works. And it can work better, if we wish it to. My position is not a criticism, per se, but just that of "some people have already done better - so anybody else can".

I was just trying to find people that thought alike just to make the thing to happen, as Ron Saueracker wisely pointed out in a previous post. I did not want to tread into the domains of gnarly, emotional, deaf trolls. Maybe I should try looking elsewhere

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 53
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/4/2004 11:33:44 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Commercial products can not be based on freeware no matter how attractive it may seem.

Think like this:

Lets say a game is written using "xyz". Game ships to paying customers. Whoops, "xyz" is broken. Sorry folks, we know you paid us money for our game but it's not our fault it doesn't work, it's "xyz's" fault. Maybe they will fix it someday but no, we are not giving you your money back. Not an acceptable position for a company to be put in ever. You use what you have the skill to fix in house. It's called risk management.

Still waiting to hear some legitimate reasons for using normalized data with such a small amount of data to deal with in the first place coupled with static requirements for data use.

Nothing inherently wrong with SQL, just pointless for such a small scale exercise. If you were tracking things down to the nit and wanted the ability to roll back to any specific point in time and you simple ran *everything* as a transaction against the database, that would certainly make it of use, but I've yet to see a game of this type with an undo button.

(in reply to vorkosigan)
Post #: 54
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/5/2004 12:18:07 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Still waiting to hear some legitimate reasons for using normalized data with such a small amount of data to deal with in the first place coupled with static requirements for data use.


You seem to be thinking exclusively in terms of WitP as it is, I think many of the other comments are related to how a game like WitP could be developed, especially from the viewpoint of an AI that is able to "learn" with data requirements that are not static. The original post, thread title and most of the discussion are of a more general nature than a discussion of the WitP way of doing things.

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Bodhi

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 55
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/5/2004 9:12:54 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

This all sounds great but doya think it will actually happen? I probably have a better chance of drilling Dana Delaney than seeing this come to pass.


Somebody else with a "Dana Delaney fixation"? I knew there was a logical reason
why I so often agree with your posts.

_____________________________


(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 56
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/5/2004 9:21:42 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Somebody else with a "Dana Delaney fixation"? I knew there was a logical reason
why I so often agree with your posts.


Too Old for me

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 57
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/5/2004 9:43:08 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

This all sounds great but doya think it will actually happen? I probably have a better chance of drilling Dana Delaney than seeing this come to pass.


Somebody else with a "Dana Delaney fixation"? I knew there was a logical reason
why I so often agree with your posts.




_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 58
RE: The challenges of developing a good AI to ever more... - 9/5/2004 9:46:31 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		..... tisk tisk tisk

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 59
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