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RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun

 
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RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/15/2006 4:54:46 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		 Horohito......now there was a a bloke was was 100% BS.

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Post #: 181
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/16/2006 6:16:53 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for digging up this thread, many interesting thoughts, until Hirohito made out Lawrence to be a Military Genius rather that a guerilla leader.

"Reinforced by the Australian Light Horse"

Bollocks!

Were the remaining 7 pages any better?

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Post #: 182
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/16/2006 2:12:03 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Well, his concept of taking Pearl Harbour early on and sacrificing in other areas of the Pacific (Noumea, Baker, Canton etc) in order to properly support that strike is a good idea as Admiral Laurent has shown ( and I've got an RHS 4.06 game going on in which I tried to do that except at a cheaper cost than Admiral Laurent had to pay and seem to have succeeded. Cost was high, about 30 ships lost in the PH operation in the first month but the surface US Pacific Fleet has been destroyed ( CVs ran to Oz as did a single Cruiser TF).

I've also taken Cold Bay and the Aleutians but to move farther into Alaska would require another major invasion ( of at least a half-dozen divisions ). In stock I think these two things would be possible whilst still invading the Phillipines but the lack of assault shipping in RHS is absolutely crippling and so I had to forego the Phillipines in order to concentrate on Malaysia which should be finished off by mid-January 42... its fall was delayed by an ueber-strong supply sink at Kuala Lumpur.


I think that going for Alaska is a reasonable strategy but not possible in a 1st turn rush, especially in RHS where there are many mutually-supporting bases in Alaska. I also think that the concept of bypassing the Phillipines is reasonable. I haven't read this thread but a comment in it leads me to believe he proposed that. It would appear though that while he did address the concept of phasing his assaults ( and needs to be commended for that insofar as it is something I see being ignored in so many AARs) he phased them improperly and then blamed the execution instead of looking to the plan.

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)
Post #: 183
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/17/2006 12:41:27 AM   
Zeta16


Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline 		Ok , I played him and he did move on me and take PH and the like, but I sunk most of his fleet around NZ in late 42 and until I had enough ships in 43 he had a nice barrier, he took Rusiia and China but I stoned him in India so it was a good game and we ended in a draw as I had taken Korea in mid 45, an dif I went for Japan instead I think I would have gotten a ton more points, but I was trying to lin=berate Rusiia to see if I could get there troops back into the game.

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(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 184
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/17/2006 5:28:28 AM   
jolly_pillager

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I have tried to ignore the PI in order to concentrate on PH and the reseults were not good.

Those little 3 plane raids out of Clark will devour your shipping, and Japan does not have enough bomber units to suppress everything.

Also invading PH is itself difficult. I wound up with 3 Division remenants sitting on PH where they couldn't DO anything, because I had to defend against a possible US counter attack from the West Coast.

I also had to leave my CV's in this area in order to have a rapid response available to any American attack.

The net result was that I was pinned down in a strategically useless location while the allies were free to run anti shipping raids on my SLOC's.

(in reply to Zeta16)
Post #: 185
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/17/2006 10:49:20 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Well the key is to hold some Hawaiian bases with sufficient infantry to deter invasion and enough army bombers to pound Pearl into the dust AND enough Bettys and Zeroes to strike hard against any shipping which tries to make it into Pearl.

You don't need your carriers if you are willing to stage 100 Zeroes and 100 Bettys and 100 Sallys around Pearl. That force can be spared relatively easily. This will free the carriers for work elsewhere.

In my game my opponent has run two CVs to Australia ( I don't know where the third is) and so I'm planning to take my 6 fleet CVs and make for those waters also picking off Pacific Islands as I go. I have the requisite force based around Hawaii and would welcome an early attempt to retake it ;). Definitely though you need to commit those bombers and fighters to free up the CVs or else taking Hawaii is just a worthless illusion of success which renders you strategically hamstrung, as you noted jolly pillager.

(in reply to jolly_pillager)
Post #: 186
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/17/2006 11:50:04 PM   
jolly_pillager

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		And the problem is that you also need those same bombers to suppress Clark, Manilla, and Singers or you will get eaten alive by dinky little three plane raids on transports.

Of course, if you're willing to take the losses, you can make it work, but I am not sure it's worth it.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 187
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/18/2006 3:55:37 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
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Status: offline 		Are we so bored that we're kicking someone who hasn't posted in diety knows how many months in a year old thread?

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Post #: 188
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/18/2006 5:16:58 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

I took his idea and ran numerous tests to find out how to make it work. After demonstrating the correct way to conquer Russia quickly he still was unhappy and claimed I was deliberately doing my invasion wrong in order to make him look bad!!!! Go figure.

My purpose in doing the three Russia AAR's was not to show that invading Russia was wise or historical. I just wanted to highlight problems with ground combat that I thought should be fixed. The logic being that if I could defeat Russia in 2 months against a good player then something must be wrong. I think I was somewhat successful as many changes were eventually made.

The AAR's are still posted and I strongly suspect that Russia can still be conquered quickly despite improvements to ground combat. BUT it is entirely unclear as to if this strategy would be good on a whole map game.

It requires 5 Chinese and 5 SRA divisions plus a couple zero squadrens be commited to Russia through February. I doubt that conquering Russia will make up for the reduced capapility in other areas of the map.





The real key to this situation is that the Japanese Player is allowed to manuever his forces into the most advantageous positions to launch his attack..., while the Allied player is stuck with the idiotic deployment of the scenario designer. If you really want to "fix" this situation, have the Japanese "violate" Soviet neutrality on turn one so that the Russians can re-deploy as well. If you are going to claim you "beat" someone, you need to give them a chance to "play" first. It's only fair...

(in reply to moses)
Post #: 189
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/19/2006 3:32:40 AM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		I agree totally. Russia would be more or less completly defensible if the allies had even a limited ability to redeploy in the face of large-scale Japanese movements.

I never claimed to "beat" anyone. When I played Ameral Laurent in the test game he knew upfront that the deck was stacked. I was just trying to demonstrate the holes in the game in hopes that some of them would be plugged.

Remember there were lots of posters back then who argued that the ground combat system was just fine.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 190
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/20/2006 2:28:19 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Pillager,

Well, obviously,you are going to have to commit some forces to the Phillipines but, honestly, you should be well able to destroy any aerial resistance out of the Phillipines in the first week or so. Plan for another couple of weeks to destroy the forces in Malaysia and DEI and use that time to build up the airfields in the other Hawaiian Islands and then transfer 100 Sallys out to Hawaii and pound Pearl.

I had a level 5 airfield there by the end of December and have pounded the aerial forces at PH into uselessness. I think that apart from some Kingfisher raids in the southern Phillipines I only ever faced 2 or 3 air raids operating out of the Phillipines. My aerial supremacy was just too extensive for raids out of the phillipines to be worthwhile.


As far as Russia goes: I think we have to respect the context in which Moses' game occurred but, yeah, if you are going to invade russia then it should either be active from Day 1 or activated at least a month before it is going to be invaded so that the Allied player can re-deploy. Of course if the Allied player uses Russia to base planes out of or transfer them between US to India ( and vice versa) then he loses the right to that warning IMO. Turn-arounds fair game.

(in reply to moses)
Post #: 191
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/21/2006 12:40:15 AM   
dtravel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Of course if the Allied player uses Russia to base planes out of or transfer them between US to India ( and vice versa) then he loses the right to that warning IMO. Turn-arounds fair game.

I seem to remember seeing somewhere that Allied units moved into unactivated USSR get "interned" and can't move or attack. So this isn't possible.


_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


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Post #: 192
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/21/2006 12:23:48 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Nope, I've had a guy do this against me. He flew them into Russia, rebuilt his B17 formations etc using the supplies in Russia and then flew them back to India to conduct bomber raids... Rinse and repeat...

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 193
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/22/2006 4:22:09 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		*mutter mutter*  Its not supposed to be possible.  Another area getting tinkered with in patches trying to make it work right.  *mutter mutter*

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 194
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/22/2006 4:41:15 PM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		A couple of comments from a REAL pro (yeah right. Check MY joining date and number of posts!!!!) Idiot.

Anyway.....

Hirohito was obviously a bit nuts (to invest that much time into a game he probably did not even own is clearly a little loopy), BUT, at least he was thinking outside the box. Too many players get stuck on the 'copy the historical timetable' path, which makes for a very predictable result. At least the esteemed Admiral was trying to figure a way to do something different and thus produce a different result. Yes, his plan was overly ambitious. And yes, to claim he was imitating 'Larry' of Arabia was hard to figure. But at least he was trying. Give him a little credit.

his real mistake was refusing to even TRY a PBEM against anyone (i guess he would have needed to go and buy the game to do that?!). I cant believe i read this entire thread waiting for the link to the game - and all for NOTHING. AAAARGH!!!

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 195
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/22/2006 8:02:43 PM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

Its not supposed to be possible.


Says Mr.Frag?

quote:

Another area getting tinkered with in patches trying to make it work right.


Don't remember seeing it addressed in any of the paches...

As far as i'm concerned, it works fine as it is...If nothing else, it's a workarround for the fact that you cannot transfer them via Atlantic.

China-Russia shuttle is a bit gamey, though.

quote:

*mutter mutter*


Glad to see you found your cranky pants...

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 196
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/22/2006 8:14:44 PM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: buzzz123

his real mistake was refusing to even TRY a PBEM against anyone


Not sure a PBEM would have been conclusive...You can have a good plan and still lose...To win a PBEM one also needs to master the game mechanics...Besides that, any opponent in this case would know exactly what to expect.

I'm not saying this is a good strategy, but it certanly was a good read (both pro's and con's).

(in reply to buzzz123)
Post #: 197
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 9/23/2006 1:34:23 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

quote:

Its not supposed to be possible.


Says Mr.Frag?



I don't remember where I read it, but if Mr.Frag said it was not supposed to be possible then I would have automatically assumed that it was.

quote:


quote:

Another area getting tinkered with in patches trying to make it work right.


Don't remember seeing it addressed in any of the paches...

As far as i'm concerned, it works fine as it is...If nothing else, it's a workarround for the fact that you cannot transfer them via Atlantic.

China-Russia shuttle is a bit gamey, though.

quote:

*mutter mutter*


Glad to see you found your cranky pants...



Stinky motel rooms make it easy to find them.



_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 198
RE: I was trying to start a serious conversation - 10/3/2006 11:13:09 PM   
6971grunt


Posts: 427
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Ya sure, you betcha
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hirohito

>This is a case of one armchair general having read a book >about history,
Actually, I have probably read over a thousand books on military strategy. I was in the first gulf war where I was shot in the back, how many wars have you been in?

Knowing this crowd, I would rethink admitting I got shot in the back - it could lead to some harsh observations.

I've served my combat time in Vietnam [and I wasn't shot in the back] so I guess I can address Hirohito on the same level playing field.

I would agree that Hirohito should have tested his theory by PBEM - what better way to test his plan?.

If he was serious about a discussion of his plan, he wasn't listening to the comments of many concerning supply and resources. I agree that this is a flaw in his plan that I did not see him adequately addressed.

Additionally, I would have suggested that he address the issue of the two American carrier groups West of the Hawaiian Islands. I on of my present games - we managed to attack and sink both carriers on day 1. We followed up with an invasion of the Hawaiian Islands 7 days later [have taken PH].

I would also question the wisdom of leaving the PI unattended in the middle of my convoy routes [that entire area is one big bottle-neck]. We undertook a strategic seige [with boots on the ground and air force in Norther Luzon] of PI and are now [6/42] just taking out Manila [all the rest of PI has been taken]. We were concerned about the presence of so many submarines of the Asiatic Fleet, but he made no mention of this problem.

The Plan we are using is similar to Hirohito's thoughts, but we have not invaded Alaska [not sure this is a good use of blood and treasure]. We have seized all of Sumatra, Java, Borneo, Malaya, most of Burma, all of the Pacific Islands except Fiji, Pago Pago and some others in that area [USN retook Christmas Island. We have also taken Noumea. Allied shipping losses are over 400 ships [40% combat ships 60% Aps/AKs].

However, supply IS still an troubling issue - fortunately we took Palembang on the first turn and are grabbing as much oil and resources as we can - so we are keeping our selves "above-water" [for the time being].

My advise to Hirohito - play out your plan - these guys will try to "twist your underware" if your talk-the-talk, but don't walk-the-walk

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(in reply to Hirohito)
Post #: 199
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/14/2007 4:27:46 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Bump for a classic....even a crazy one

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Post #: 200
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/14/2007 5:05:45 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
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Good heavens, man! Are you muckraking?

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Post #: 201
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/14/2007 5:19:19 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Aaaa-aaaa-aaaa-aaaa

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Post #: 202
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/14/2007 5:21:47 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Good heavens, man! Are you muckraking?



muckslinging would be more like it


_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 203
RE: Top Ten Best Japanese plans ever - 11/14/2007 2:31:51 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi,

1 Drop a Paratroop Army onto USA from 100,000 Zepplins.
2 Walk backwards from China to India telling the Allies you are retreating
3. Sue for peace on Dec 7 1941 but refuse to sign the paper before March 1946
4. Hide
5. Build nothing but mines and mine the entire Pacific Ocean from PH to Tokyo.
6. Sink Saipan Tinian and Guam.
7. Drop beer on the Aussies, the Brits and the Dutch and get them to see things your way.
8. Convince the Soviets that the USA is planning to invade them.
9. Invest in American factories. You'll lose the war but have a lot of money afterwards.
10. Send out 10,000 turn 1 in PBEM and then never answer the return emails. All games will be forever stuck with Japan at her peak.

This are definitly the best advices to asure a Japanese vitory!
I'll print them and hang them on my wall!



9 is my favourite!

< Message edited by Historiker -- 11/14/2007 2:33:21 PM >

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Post #: 204
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/14/2007 10:31:06 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		NO!!!

Not the dreaded Hirohito thread!
I'd hoped this one was deleted.

He doesn't hang around here anymore...

_____________________________


(in reply to Hirohito)
Post #: 205
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/14/2007 10:34:26 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I wonder why...

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Post #: 206
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/17/2007 4:38:18 AM   
Nightcrawler1

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Didn't zeta16 post on 9/16/06 that he did play Hirohito in a PBEM game where this strategy was used?  After that post people were still saying he should have tried it out for real, but it looks to me like he did and it wasn't a total failure.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 207
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/17/2007 12:38:21 PM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightcrawler1

Didn't zeta16 post on 9/16/06 that he did play Hirohito in a PBEM game where this strategy was used? After that post people were still saying he should have tried it out for real, but it looks to me like he did and it wasn't a total failure.


No he played WITP_Dude who tried using his strategy. The game was set up specifically for that task.

(in reply to Nightcrawler1)
Post #: 208
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/17/2007 5:00:22 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightcrawler1

Didn't zeta16 post on 9/16/06 that he did play Hirohito in a PBEM game where this strategy was used? After that post people were still saying he should have tried it out for real, but it looks to me like he did and it wasn't a total failure.


No he played WITP_Dude who tried using his strategy. The game was set up specifically for that task.


Depends what you call a "total failure" - it certainly did not live up to the hyperbolic claims that were made when it was first presented.

EDIT: i haven't read through this entire thing, but iirc, Mssr. Hirohito was claiming (not necessarily in this thread) that there was no way to defend against it, there was no way the IJN was going to lose any carriers (one of the first things disproven, and i think was met with Hirohito's reply that HE wouldn't have lost them, etc.)

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 11/17/2007 5:06:39 PM >

(in reply to String)
Post #: 209
RE: Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun - 11/18/2007 11:19:45 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Ah .....this old thread.  There are very slow days on this forum that I almost catch myself wishing Hirohito was still around. 

And if he IS around using a different handle....my offer is STILL on the table to play you.


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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 210
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