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- 3/26/2001 11:04:00 PM   
moore4807


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From: Punta Gorda FL
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In regards to the Thatch - I believe it was a Richard Newhafer novel and was a fictional accounting of Thatch's Fighting Three through the war. Unfortunately my wife "disposed" of a few boxes of my warbooks (apparently including this one) I remember the author being interviewed and he stated the Barber's Point flying incident was told to him by Thatch's XO while researching the book. I dont have any further info but maybe someone can furnish the name of the book as it escapes me now...

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- 3/26/2001 11:15:00 PM   
moore4807


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I cant dispute any of what you said Warpup, Chennault was far ahead of his time as far as fighter interceptor theories go. However history books said that fighter jockeys traded information as they practiced thier trade so these theories would be spread, modified, or improved as time passed, making it even likelier what you say is true even if it wasnt "book learning" a good point-you made me think about it

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Post #: 62
- 4/6/2001 9:28:00 AM   
Greg Wilmoth

 

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Hey Matrix! If you guys get serious about doing in-depth production in the game, put these three books on your research list. You'll find lots of books on the technical aspects of the warships, but these will get into the politics and economics of fleet building: The Unsinkable Fleet: The Politics of U.S. Navy Expansion in World War II, but Joel R. Davidson. (Naval Institute Press, 1996) Davidson says the small US capacity to manufacture armored plate in 1940 put a cap on the number of battleships the US could build before 1948. Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics, and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy 1887-1941, by David C. Evans and Mark R. Peattie. (Naval Institute Press, 1997) These guys say the IJN pressed for qualatative superiority in all their weapons, but they often ended up with just over-specialization. British Seapower and Procurement Between the Wars: A Reappraisal of Rearmament, by G.A.H. Gordon. (Naval Institute Press, 1988) In the late 1930s the Brits had an armor plate bottleneck too. They ended up buying armor from Czechoslovakia, and bizarrely, from German controlled Czechoslovakia after May 1939.

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Post #: 63
- 4/6/2001 12:31:00 PM   
Svar

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Greg Wilmoth: Finally, we can’t always assume engineers really know what they’re doing. There is a book called “What Engineers Know and How They Know It: Analytical Studies from Aeronautical History,” by Walter Vincenti. It’s not an easy read, but one of the chapters is on the “Davis Wing,” which was used in the B-24 and was written up in Life magazine as “The Wing that Could Win the War.” Davis was a self-taught inventor, and he was working probably just at the end of the period in aeronautical history when a non-technically trained person could still make a design contribution. The Davis wing did seem to decrease drag and therefore increased range, at least for the B-24. Davis had an elaborate explanation using algebra and geometry to explain how it worked, but engineers couldn’t make sense of it. It wasn’t until later with more sophisticated analysis that engineers were able to understand what Davis apparently stumbled onto. Air moving over the curved top of a wing ends up in turbulence. His design moved the starting point of that turbulence further aft. Since the area of the top of the wing covered in turbulence was proportional to drag, moving it back reduced the turbulent area, and hence the drag. Davis had a good design, but he really didn’t have a clue as to how it worked. For awhile, at least, neither did the engineers.
Greg, I'm sure you know a lot more about avaition history than I do but your reference to the Davis wing needs a little explaination. Turbulent flow over a wing is when the wing stalls. I think you are talking about the boundry layer flow. There is first laminar flow then turbulent flow in the boundry layer of an airfoil. The drag from the turbulent layer is much greater than the laminar layer so if an engineer or Davis can move the transition from laminar flow to turbulent flow back farther on the airfoil cord he will reduce the drag. But this principle was well known by the US National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics and first tried on the NA-73, later to be known as the P-51. Svar

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Post #: 64
- 4/6/2001 7:33:00 PM   
Mike Wood


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Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
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Hello... Thanks for the suggestion.
quote:

Originally posted by Greg Wilmoth: Hey Matrix! If you guys get serious about doing in-depth production in the game, put these three books on your research list. You'll find lots of books on the technical aspects of the warships, but these will get into the politics and economics of fleet building: The Unsinkable Fleet: The Politics of U.S. Navy Expansion in World War II, but Joel R. Davidson. (Naval Institute Press, 1996) Davidson says the small US capacity to manufacture armored plate in 1940 put a cap on the number of battleships the US could build before 1948. Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics, and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy 1887-1941, by David C. Evans and Mark R. Peattie. (Naval Institute Press, 1997) These guys say the IJN pressed for qualatative superiority in all their weapons, but they often ended up with just over-specialization. British Seapower and Procurement Between the Wars: A Reappraisal of Rearmament, by G.A.H. Gordon. (Naval Institute Press, 1988) In the late 1930s the Brits had an armor plate bottleneck too. They ended up buying armor from Czechoslovakia, and bizarrely, from German controlled Czechoslovakia after May 1939.
We do read the forums daily and consider everything discussed, here. Bye... Michael Wood Lead Programmer, Matrix Games

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Post #: 65
- 4/7/2001 8:24:00 AM   
Greg Wilmoth

 

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Svar, I went back to the library and checked out Vincenti’s book again; you are right about the boundary layer flow and the fact it was understood at the time. Eastman Jacobs and a team of NACA engineers at Langley field apparently made the breakthorugh in 1937, although the war slowed deveopment and it was 1945 before they had a catalog of laminar flow airfoils for designers to use. Serves me right for trying to rely only on my memory. When I said the book was “not an easy read,” what I should have said was “I had a hard time understanding parts of it.” You flatter me when you say I know more about aviation history than you. I know less than I’d like, and even less about aeronautical engineering. However, I still stand by the point of my original post: engineers don’t always understand what they are doing. Here’s a quote from Vincenti’s book: “Although the impression is necessarily subjective, the uncertainties in airfoil design in the second half of the 1930s loom as large as the certainties. What designers did not know appears as consequential as what they did know. In some matters, as with scale effects and tunnel turbulence, they were concious of uncertainty, but in such attempts as they made to deal with it, they did not know as much as they thought they did. And with regard to the importance of manufacturing irregularities, they didn’t even know what they didn’t know. Knowledge of airfoil design at the time of the Davis airfoil was more uneven than designers knew or perhaps cared to realize.” Thanks for the correction; good catch. Greg

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Post #: 66
- 4/7/2001 9:04:00 AM   
RevRick


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Regarding the P-51 - known as the A-36 Apache and given the name Mustang by the Brits. Didn't the NACA information wind up in the hands of the North American design team by some under the table slight of hand? Seems that I read that somewhere - and the Brits did two conversion of the Mustang I's using Merlins in place of the Allisons. I have seen pictures of them, and got the USAAF's attention with their raw data. Of course,this also begs the question of what would have happened if the P-38 had been similarly retrofitted somewhere - which was proposed but never got of the ground. Seems that someone objected to Allison losing all of that business.

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Post #: 67
- 4/8/2001 9:20:00 AM   
Greg Wilmoth

 

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From: Scottsdale, Arizona, USA
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quote:

Originally posted by RevRick: Regarding the P-51 - known as the A-36 Apache and given the name Mustang by the Brits. Didn't the NACA information wind up in the hands of the North American design team by some under the table slight of hand?
As far as I know the information NACA generated was freely available, at least to US designers. For example, NACA published catalogs of wing foils with their characteristics as derived from NACA wind tunnel tests.
quote:

Seems that I read that somewhere - and the Brits did two conversion of the Mustang I's using Merlins in place of the Allisons. I have seen pictures of them, and got the USAAF's attention with their raw data. Of course,this also begs the question of what would have happened if the P-38 had been similarly retrofitted somewhere - which was proposed but never got of the ground. Seems that someone objected to Allison losing all of that business.
The Rolls Royce Merlin engine and radar were the two crown jewels of British reverse-lend lease. Packard was licensed to build the Merlin in the US. Among the liquid cooled engines, the Merlin/Packard seemed to have the Allison beat, but there are Allison partisans that claim all it needed was a good turbo-supercharger. There was lots of politics in design and production decisions. I. B. Holley, in his book on aircraft procurement in the US Army in WWII series, says the aircraft and aircraft engine manufacturers were scared to death of collaborating with the auto manufacturers. The US government basically had to force them. They were afraid the auto makers would become fierce competitors after the war.

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Post #: 68
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