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Additional Capital Ships Fir IJN

 
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Additional Capital Ships Fir IJN - 12/30/2000 1:45:00 PM   
sethwrkr

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 10/8/2000
Status: offline 		IF I have protected my convoys and achieved a beter oil/resource position than Historical, shouldnt more capital ships be availiable to me than historical Seth

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Post #: 1
- 12/31/2000 10:43:00 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		The primary problem would be that for any capital ships to be available in time to be any real good - as in late 1942 or 1943 - they would have been started in 1939 or so. It took a long time to build carriers, battleships, and cruisers (the least amount of time required. So, unless the building was already underway at Dec. 7, they aren't going to show up for a long time. The IJN Shinano was originally supposed to be a Yamato class BB, but was converted during the war, and then was not completed until very late. The IJN was convinced that they could not be beaten, and did not plan for much in the way of carrier construction until after Midway. The Unryu class was started, but after Midway, they decided to build about twelve of them. Needless to say, it did not pan out. The USN, on the other hand, had ordered about the same number of Essex class and they were well underway at the time of Pearl Harbor. In fact, I think that the Essex was launched one year after the attack. In the 2.2, the slot following the Musashi is supposed to be the Asahi (I think) which was to be the fourth of the Yamato class. I have modified some games to make more CV's available late in the war, and have also changed some fo the values for carrier pilot training to reflect a theoretical change in the IJN attitude toward pilot training (taking some of the pilots from existing squadrons and making them available to train those coming onboard.) It makes for an interesting game later one. What PW reflects is the Japanese military's attitude toward the inability of the USN to stand up to it for an extended time. When it happened, they had nothing in the pipeline with which to respond - either in ships, or in pilots. That did not make the war any easier. ------------------ God Bless; Rev. Rick, the tincanman

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"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Post #: 2
- 12/31/2000 1:49:00 PM   
Major Tom

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Rick is right on the money there. A major limitation was shipyard space. The IJN planned up to 5 improved Taiho Class CV's as well, but, the idea was scrapped in order to build the Unryu class. Many CV designs were also delayed due to other ships being converted to CVL's during the first few months of the war (Shoho, Junyo, Hiyo, Ryujo, Chitose, Chiyoda) Another thing that is noteworthy is that the Japanese repeatedly stopped production on many of their capital ships. The Ibuki, a Mogami Class, as well as the Shiano had their production suspended, for whatever reasons. If effort on completing them remained as a priority then they probably should be produced MUCH earier than the Game has them (when they historically did appear). The choice to convert these vessels to carriers also wasted valuable time and materials. Because of the limited shipyard space, decisions on what to produce are VERY important, as, modifying ships being built will only result in delays. I have also been toying with these hypothetical scenarios, one being 'What if the Japanese prepared for a total war?'. The aircrew experience change like you mentioned was included (lower experience levels of airgroups already on the field, but, there will be no decrease in experience levels of later airgroups). Also, instead of just focussing on planes that had the best manuverability, the IJAAF might have imported some German designs (Me109, FW190), or have gone with fast and durable and heavily armed types (like the cancelled Ki-28 and Ki-60). Development of a 4 engined long range heavy bomber. Any Destroyers developed after the end of the Washington treaty will be cheaper to produce (ie. no more super destroyers) but they will posess more of them. The conversion of the virtually useless Aganao CL class to Indepencence-like CVL's. The cancellation of the Yamato class and development of more practical (ie. less resource consuming) 16" gunned Fast Battleships. Conversion of obsolete Light Cruisers to Anti-Aircraft Cruisers ala British C-Class. IJN SNLF formations would be concentrated into larger groups instead of divided up into weak Regiments or reinforced Battalions.

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Post #: 3
- 1/1/2001 9:51:00 PM   
Paul Goodman

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Status: offline 		The real problem for the IJN was not lack of ships, except perhaps, destroyers. The real problem begins with the "I-GO" offensive, where the carriers are stripped of their air groups and moved to land bases. Unfortunately, they then ran into the P-38's of the Fifth Air Force and were largely destroyed. The squadrons were again built up (with, of course, reduced experience aircrews). However, the carriers were again stripped of their air groups to reinforce Rabaul, where they were again slaughtered by SolAir and Fifth Air Force. What actually occured then, was that the Combined Fleet has a whole lot more aircraft carriers than they have aircraft to put on them. The plan to sortee against an attack on either the Gilberts or the Marshalls had to be abandoned due to lack of aircraft and, in fact, Truk becomes untenable for exactly the same reason. We see this continue right up to the final real fleet action at Leyte Gulf. The "decoy task force" has four carriers, two hybrids and 39 aircraft. Japan has very limited resources. Building deck space for nonexistent aircraft won't improve the picture. Paul

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Post #: 4
- 1/1/2001 10:15:00 PM   
sethwrkr

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 10/8/2000
Status: offline 		If the resource/oil picture improves prodcution of aircraft improves = more aircraft of higher quality. Seth

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Post #: 5
- 1/2/2001 1:42:00 AM   
Major Tom

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		R & D can progress much slower or much faster than the ability of production. The rate of supplies and material will not slow or increase the rate of R & D. Both Japan and Germany experienced their greatest technological leaps when they were at their shortest levels of supply (1944). Oil/Resources come into play when you actually try to produce the new military type. Yes, the IJN was pretty dumb in sending off their Carrier trained pilots to operate as land based planes, when better interceptors existed in the IJAAF (Tougher and better armament). The problem was, that the IJAAF and IJNAF weren't too keen in supporting eachother. That is why the IJNAF had to drop its Carrier aircraft, as, it had nothing else in which to protect Rabul. I would hope that WitP will include friction between the IJA and IJN, limiting the number of IJA Division at IJN bases/territory, along with numbers of airgroups on eachothers bases as well. On sort of a side note, I would like to see a politics rating. Great successes and defeats can really change your populations outlook on the war. If you just sit and wait for 2 years before you attack then maybe your population becomes restless? Possibly they are getting tired of the war? Maybe if you remain inactive your military might be forced to surrender? Also, certain bases, like the Philippines for America, and Malaya for the British should be prime targets. One can win Pacific War by merely attacking and securing the Marianas Islands and bombarding Japan into submission. However, if the US was to leave the Philippines unliberated it would result in a major propaganda blunder back home, plus, MacArthur would probably have resigned. These things shouldn't be forced upon a player, but, if a player refuses to do any of these they risk the chance of losing the war.

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Post #: 6
- 1/2/2001 10:06:00 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		Major Tom: One thing has bugged me since I began playing Pacific War. When engaged in an action against IJA troops it takes as much as 125 or more to dislodge them. This reflects the tenacity if the Army. Yet, when the game points reach a 2-1 advantage, there is an "Unconditional Surrender." That just does not sound very realistic. I would think that to beat Japan would take very much like what really happened, or was planned with Coronet and Olympus. What say you? ------------------ God Bless; Rev. Rick, the tincanman

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"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Post #: 7
- 1/2/2001 10:33:00 AM   
Major Tom

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Well, one would hope that the 2:1 advantage would be achieved through doing what was done historically (ie cause as much damage on the Japanese as you can while minimizing your own). Having Japan surrender just after certain bases fall (the Home Islands) might open the gate to gamey tactics (Ignoring the rest of the pacific and landing all of your US Army divisions on the Japanese home islands, winning the game without fighting in the pacific. I would like to see a combination of kill ratio's as well as control of territory to deem an Allied victory. Possibly an economic factor could be implemented (in WitP) that if Japanese production, or civilian population falls below a certain number (due to bombing or invasion) the chance of surrendering rises. Japan only surrendered after the Home Islands were attacked. The 125:1 odds are pretty difficult to achieve. What I think that Gary was after, was, that in order to push Japanese troops around you must use your naval and air support to its fullest. This was probably the only way they could reenact the tenacity of the Japanese to hold on long after supply ran out and being vastly outnumbered. A better way in representing this will probably be incorporated in WitP (with the addition of some sort of fanaticism value for each individual unit that affects this tenacity). Unfortunately there are extreme limitations to Pacific War.

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Post #: 8
- 1/2/2001 11:40:00 AM   
sethwrkr

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 10/8/2000
Status: offline 		tom, How are you going to get troops all the way to Japanese home islands without taking chunks of real estate along the way? If, you can not stop that you deserve to lose. Seth

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Post #: 9
- 1/4/2001 10:35:00 PM   
Paul Goodman

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Status: offline 		I think RevRick's point is that the Japanese surrender too readily and totally out of proportion to the problems encountered in eliminating Japanese units from islands. I agree. I think these conditions will be totally moot for WitP. Paul

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Post #: 10
- 1/4/2001 11:17:00 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		The *real* problem with Japanese production was that the Japanese were in charge of it. They were not in the first half of the 20thC the industrial experts that they became in the 2nd half of the 20thC. Japanese production did not approach the level of industrial sophistication of the US, USSR, or UK, or even Germany (who belatedly improved production in a few areas). On top of that there were chronic shortages of *everything*, not just raw materials, almost from the get go, that were incredibly exacerbated by shipping losses along the way. Even with substantial increases in available raw materials it is unlikely that Japan could have realized substantial broad-spectrum gains in the production of refined parts (machinery, aircraft and ship engines, armor-grade steel, radios, radar, machine tools, tanks, torpedoes, optical devices, ship turrets, etc). No doubt production of rifle barrels, ammunition, and a few of the less complicated radial-engined aircraft could have been substantially increased. The rest... only very very slowly.

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 11
- 1/5/2001 7:32:00 AM   
sethwrkr

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 10/8/2000
Status: offline 		so then the stories of melting pots for guns and the substitution of wood into late war fighter airframes was due to industrial base issues? NOT!

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Post #: 12
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