RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan

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RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan - 9/22/2004 12:47:51 AM

kevini100

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline

This real nice book I have on WW2. Almost completely ignores the war in China. Amazing!

K-

(in reply to RoyalOak)

Post #: 31

RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan - 9/22/2004 1:12:55 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevini100

Does anyone have any good informantion or history of the war in China vs Japan. It seems like there isn't that much out there on it. When you read a book about the war China isn't paid that much attention. What I'm interested in is Japanese operations from 41-45 in China. What did they do? what was there plan or strategy?

Kevin

YOu don't hear much about the war in China from 1941 to 1945 because there wasn't much of a war in that time frame. Japan's hot war in China lasted from 1937 to 1940 and started really tailing off in 1941 as they reached a rough stalemate. Japan had Manchuria (taken even earlier) and had enough of China by 1940 to protect the western flank of its planned SRA conquests. Between keep a wary eye on the Soviets, and needing resources for Burma and then later holding the defensive line against the Americans, they likely felt further pursuit of the war in China wasn't worth the limited gain. Not until 1944 when they realized Allied held Chinese territory was well within B-29 of the home islands did they get concerned and attempt to do something about it.

(in reply to kevini100)

Post #: 32

RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan - 9/22/2004 1:30:31 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

quote:

It is safer and more effective to hold and strengthen rather than atack in CHina.

I respectfully disagree. Japan has a unique chance at the beginning when the Chinese forces are off balance and not fortified.

While it is "safe" to just dig in and maintain the situation, this will do nothing to help you elsewhere in the Pacific. But if you can beat back the Chinese and free up forces...

Which is TRUELY STUPID when you consider it as the Chinese were the one "Allied"
power that wasn't and couldn't be suprised by the Japanese; having been at war with
them since 1937 and relatively "stalemated" for virtually all of 1941. The Chinese
should START WITP fully fully dug in and prepared as they had been holding that
front for months. The fact that the game offers a Japanese Army that has just ship-
ped a good portion of it's strength and supplies out to fight a whole new world of
enemies even a chance of also achieving any major gains in China at the same time
is one of it's glaring problems. The whole Pacific War started because the Japanese
Army COULDN'T win the war it had started in China and was caught in a morass.

So far I'm locked two epic battles right now in a hotseat game with my 20 year old son. I'm Japan, he's allies. By the time I managed to mass forces and finally root him out of Changsa he had largely emptied out the interior, leaving behind just enough force to prevent airborne silliness on my part and massed 100,000 in Kwelin, 140,000+ in Hengchow, and 110,000 in Homan. I knocked him out in Yemen but then "discovered" to my horror by 60,000 Jap troops moving on Homan were hopelessly out numbered there so I moved all but three Yenen inf division to add to the assult on Homan. The remainder are way too weak to take Lanchow now so they are just sitting in Yemen keeping him from retaking the city. Meanwhile in the south I took Wuchow with little difficulty but discovered through recon he has almost 100,000 reserves at that interior base moved in from Yunan! No go there so I borrow the 38th Div from Southern Area Army along with two other divisions and move against him at Kwelin. He CLEANED BY CLOCK there with over 100,000 troops! So I left a holding force south of there to prevent michief amnd move the other two to meet up with the MASS of force comming from Changsa an Henchow. He also has 80,000 massed at Ichang! SO my four divisions in that area are uselss as well.

So now I have been engaged for two weeks in Deliberate attacks of 180,000 Japanese vs 140,000 Chinese at Hengchow and a 140,000 to roughly 100,000 or so at Homan in two EPIC land battles. And in the meantime he managed to somehow build Hengchow to 7 forts and Homan to 5! I'm very painfully, very slowly, winning having reduced forts to 5 in Hengchow and 3 in Homan and getting about 1.3 to 1 kill ratios on him. I will eventually root him out but i will be DECIMATED and out of supply when done!

So even with the somewhat absurd force structure in China, a really good Allied player can make life HELL there for the Japanese!

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 33

RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan - 9/22/2004 1:40:43 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsaces

Like WitP_Dude says : not only the japanese army is stronger but the Chinese are weaker : since the fall of Burma, China is almost totally isolated. By 1944 The Chungking regime was on the brink of collapse - even without the Japanese offensive !

In december 1941 and winter 1942, Japanese resources are earmarked for SouthEast Asia. Japan had shortages of everything, even bullets, let alone tanks and airplanes and oil. It would have been impossible for the Japanese to simultaneously mount major offensives in the South and the West (China) at the same time ! The game should better reflect this.

Cheers,

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevini100

The most successful Japanese offensive in China was in 1944. If they were able to do this in 1944 then they most certainly be able to do it in 1941-1943. I mean was the Japanese army stronger in 1944 in China than 1941-1944 or was the Chinese army weaker in 1944 than 1941-1943.

Kevin

Yes, the army was much stronger in 1944. In WitP, look at how many additional divisions you get as reinforcements. No, the situation in WiTP China is not correct at the moment.

The game does a decent job of this. If you read my statement on my current China situation, I have Shanghai and Canton on auto supply and those two rather EPIC WiTP battles I have going in China are causing REPEATED auto convoys to head to China, draining the home islands dry and leaving my SRA offensive in Bornea and Sulwassi almost devoid of needed supply! Forget the Solomons altogether at this point (12 Feb 1942). My China battles are bleeding supply from EVERYTHING.

(in reply to Arsaces)

Post #: 34

RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan - 9/22/2004 3:37:14 AM

Arsaces

Posts: 39
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline

To be honest Zoomie, I'm still learning the system and puttering about with the smaller scenarios - I haven't started the 1941 campaign yet ! I've been relying on what others have been saying on this - which may not be such a good idea. Of course if these all out multiple front offensives they brag about end with an exhausted Japan by the end of 1942, well there is no problem at all ! At least that's what your own game reports seem to suggest.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsaces

Like WitP_Dude says : not only the japanese army is stronger but the Chinese are weaker : since the fall of Burma, China is almost totally isolated. By 1944 The Chungking regime was on the brink of collapse - even without the Japanese offensive !

In december 1941 and winter 1942, Japanese resources are earmarked for SouthEast Asia. Japan had shortages of everything, even bullets, let alone tanks and airplanes and oil. It would have been impossible for the Japanese to simultaneously mount major offensives in the South and the West (China) at the same time ! The game should better reflect this.

Cheers,

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevini100

The most successful Japanese offensive in China was in 1944. If they were able to do this in 1944 then they most certainly be able to do it in 1941-1943. I mean was the Japanese army stronger in 1944 in China than 1941-1944 or was the Chinese army weaker in 1944 than 1941-1943.

Kevin

Yes, the army was much stronger in 1944. In WitP, look at how many additional divisions you get as reinforcements. No, the situation in WiTP China is not correct at the moment.

The game does a decent job of this. If you read my statement on my current China situation, I have Shanghai and Canton on auto supply and those two rather EPIC WiTP battles I have going in China are causing REPEATED auto convoys to head to China, draining the home islands dry and leaving my SRA offensive in Bornea and Sulwassi almost devoid of needed supply! Forget the Solomons altogether at this point (12 Feb 1942). My China battles are bleeding supply from EVERYTHING.

< Message edited by Arsaces -- 9/22/2004 1:42:11 AM >

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 35

RE: History of the War in CHina vs Japan - 9/22/2004 6:46:17 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

china is actually fine the way it is. Honestly, it is early jan 1942 in my game, and I have taken about 4 chinese cities...is this so historically inacurrate? I mean, you gotta give the japanese a bit of advancement opportunities. and besides, if china starts off fortified, so should japan!

Yes, Gnome..., it's totally inaccurate. As to the Japanese being dug in as well, they
should certainly have the opportunity. They didn't do it as much as the Chinese be-
cause of their attitude towards the Chinese, but the opportunity was there.

_____________________________

(in reply to BossGnome)

Post #: 36

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