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Serious one for a change - friendly fire

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Serious one for a change - friendly fire Page: [1]
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Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 11:38:30 AM   
strawbuk


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As I am only able to manage a rare turn vs AI (if only WITP would work on office machine...) I might well be seeing things but can we get friendly fire in air attacks on land units?

Situation: Burma - usual Brit run away, IJA get into same hex, a/c come into ground attack (I'm Allied). Sure both sides are getting occaisionaly 'blue on blue' .

Fine if it is, and a nice touch, but hope for allies it goes away in 1944 when FAC gets good and there are too many aircraft to want them to miss! (Nobody say Op Goodwood).

< Message edited by strawbuk -- 9/21/2004 3:46:39 PM >


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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 5:45:36 PM   
strawbuk


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Bump?

Or have I blotted record with bad anagrams post?

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Twinkle twinkle PBY
Seeking Kido Bu-tai
Flying o' the sea so high
An ill-omen in the sky
Twinkle twinkle PBY
Pointing out who's next to fry

(in reply to strawbuk)
Post #: 2
RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 5:55:47 PM   
PeteG662


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Friendly fire isn't! It should always be around since we still have problems in the modern era! Remember the highest ranking soldier killed in the US Army was by friendly fire on Okinawa!

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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 7:35:52 PM   
Nikademus


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no friendly fire rule currently implemented.

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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 10:36:33 PM   
PeteG662


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BOOOOOOOOO.......LOL

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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 10:44:58 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Friendly fire isn't! It should always be around since we still have problems in the modern era! Remember the highest ranking soldier killed in the US Army was by friendly fire on Okinawa!


Actually, I thought Buckner was the second highest. McNair was killed by friendly fire in Normandy.

Either way, Blue-on-Blue got the two highest

BTW, at least two sources are still sticking to the story that the artillery that got Buckner was Japanese pretending to be American fire dropping short.

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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 10:53:10 PM   
Nikademus


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Not counting the flak in the public forum......bring your helmut....

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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 10:54:35 PM   
DrewMatrix


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Looking stuff up re this thread led me to this interesting website:

http://www.wilk4.com/humor/humorm175.htm

I can't vouch for the authenticity of what is there, but they noted:

Buckenr was killed by friendly artillery, McNair (his senior) by an airstrike.

and (re the discussion of how many casualties units take unloading over a beach)

quote:

Following a massive naval bombardment 35,000 US and Canadian troops stormed ashore at Kiska. 32 troops (28 Americans and 4 Canadian) were killed in the fire fight and over 50 wounded. It would have been worse if there had been Japanese on the island.


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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/21/2004 11:12:47 PM   
Brausepaul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
...
BTW, at least two sources are still sticking to the story that the artillery that got Buckner was Japanese pretending to be American fire dropping short.


I wonder how they made their shells to do that.

< Message edited by Brausepaul -- 9/21/2004 4:14:57 PM >

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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/22/2004 12:55:46 AM   
SpitfireIX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Friendly fire isn't! It should always be around since we still have problems in the modern era! Remember the highest ranking soldier killed in the US Army was by friendly fire on Okinawa!


You are confusing the death of Lieutenant General Simon B. Buckner, who died on Okinawa from Japanese artillery fire, with the death of Lieutenant General Lesley McNair, who died in Europe during Operation Cobra from bombs dropped by B-17s. These were the only two American three-star officers killed in action during WWII.

It also appears likely that two of the four American rear admirals killed in action (Scott and Callaghan) were killed by friendly fire.

Side note for those of you who are not also American Civil War nuts: Buckner's father was a Confederate general--he received what is believed to be the first-ever demand for "unconditional surrender" from U. S. Grant.

Second side note: I just recently learned that Nathan Bedford Forrest's great-grandson (N. B. Forrest III) was an AAF general in WWII--he was killed in Europe leading a bombing raid. If anyone besides me reads Harry Turtledove, N. B. Forrest III is a character in Turtledove's latest alternate-history novel.

< Message edited by SpitfireIX -- 9/21/2004 6:07:06 PM >


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"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/22/2004 1:04:10 AM   
SpitfireIX


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I note several other people have posted while I was composing my reply. I haven't found any credible evidence that Buckner was killed by "friendly" fire--admittedly, I haven't done an exhaustive search. I'm on my break at work--I'll check some books when I get home.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to SpitfireIX)
Post #: 11
RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/22/2004 2:04:25 AM   
timtom


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The only detailed study on friendly fire in ground combat known to me is Schrader, Charles R.: Amicicide: The Problem of Friendly Fire in Modern War. US Army Command & General Staff College 1982. He guestimates that about 2% of all American casualties in WWII were caused by friendly fire. Some of the examples given are hillarious, if only they weren't so serious.


Got this stuff off http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq82-1.htm#anchor372549

Only incidents leading to a complete loss is recorded, so presumably there were many more

Friendly Fire:


USS Seawolf (SS-197) sunk in error by destroyer escort USS Richard M. Rowell (DE-403) off Morotai, 3 October 1944.

PT-77 sunk in error by the USS Conyngham (DD-371) and USS Lough (DE-586) near Talin Point, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 1 February 1945.

PT-79 sunk in error by the USS Conyngham (DD-371) and USS Lough (DE-586) near Talin Point, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 1 February 1945.

PT-121 destroyed by Australian aircraft, mistaken identification, Bangula Bay, New Britain, 27 March 1944.

PT-353 destroyed by Australian aircraft, mistaken identification, Bangula Bay, New Britain Island, 27 March 1944.

PT-166 destroyed in error by US Army Air Force B-25 bombers, mistaken identification, off New Georgia, 20 July 1943.

PT-283 damaged by Japanese shore batteries or wild shot from U.S. warship, 18 March 1944, and sank off Bougainville, Solomon Islands, 19 March 1944.

PT-346 destroyed by U.S. Navy aircraft, mistaken identification, near Cape Pomas, New Britain Island, 29 April 1944.

PT-347 destroyed by U.S. Navy aircraft, mistaken identification, near Cape Pomas, New Britain Island, 29 April 1944.


Incidents otherwise not involving the enemy:


USS Hull (DD-350) foundered during a typhoon in the Philippine Sea, 18 December 1944.

USS Monaghan (DD-354) foundered during a typhoon in the Philippine Sea, 18 December 1944

USS Spence (DD-512) capsized during a typhoon in the Philippine Sea, 18 December 1944.

USS Perkins (DD-377) sunk in collision with HMAS Duntroon off Cape Vogel, New Guinea, 29 November 1943

USS Worden (DD-352) Wrecked off Amchitka, Aleutian Islands, 12 January 1943.

59 DD's were lost in the pacific, so a 8.5% of losses were non-combat

USS Wasmuth (DMS-15) sunk by explosion of depth charges during gale off Aleutian Islands, 29 December 1942.

Six DMS's were lost / non-op = 16.5%

USS Robalo (SS-273) sunk by a internal explosion or a mine off Palawan, Philippine Islands, 26 July 1944.

USS S-28 (SS-133) failed to surface during training exercises with the USCGC Reliance (WPC-150) off Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, 4 July 1944.

USS S-27 (SS-132) lost by grounding on a reef off St. Makarius Point, Amchitka, Aleutian Islands, 19 June 1942.

USS S-36 (SS-141) lost by grounding on Taka Bakang Reef, Makassar Strait, 20 January 1942.

USS S-39 (SS-144) lost by grounding south off Rossel Island, Louisiade Archipelago,
14 August 1942.

USS Darter (SS-227) stranded on Bombay Shoal, off Palawan, Philippine Islands, and destroyed to prevent capture, 24 October 1944.

USS Tang (SS-306) sunk by own torpedo off Formosa, 24 October 1944.

USS Tullibee (SS-284) sunk by own torpedo north of Palau, Caroline Islands, 26 March 1944.

49 subs were lost in the Pacific, so 18.5% of subs were non-combat or FF losses

PT-22 scrapped after being badly damaged in a storm at Dora Harbor, Alaska, 11 June 1943.

PT-28 damaged beyond repair in a storm at Dora Harbor, Alaska, 12 January 1943.

PT-31 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, Subic Bay, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 19 January 1942.
PT-32 destroyed to prevent capture, Tagauayan Island, Philippine Islands, 13 March 1942.

PT-33 grounded in enemy waters, 15 December 1941, and destroyed to prevent capture, Cape Santiago, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 26 December 1941.

PT-35 destroyed to prevent capture, Cebu City, Cebu, Philippine Islands, 12 April 1942.

PT-41 destroyed to prevent capture on road to Lake Lanao, Mindanao, Philippine Islands, 15 April 1942.

PT-63 destroyed by accidental fire while refueling in port, Hamburg Bay, Emirau Island, 18 June 1944.

PT-67 destroyed by accidental fire while refueling in port, Tufi, New Guinea, 17 March 1943.

PT-68 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture near Vincke Point, New Guinea, 1 October 1943.

PT-73 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, Baliquias Bay, Mindoro, Philippine Islands, 15 January 1945.

PT-107 destroyed by accidental fire while refueling in port, Hamburg Bay, Emirau Island, 18 June 1944.

PT-110 sunk after collision in Ablingi Harbor, New Britain, 26 January 1944.

PT-113 destroyed as a result of grounding, not in enemy waters, Veale Reef, near Tufi, New Guinea, 8 August 1943.

PT-118 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, off Vella Lavella, Solomon Islands, 7 September 1943.

PT-119 destroyed by fire in port, Tufi, New Guinea, 17 March 1943.

PT-135 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, near Crater Point, New Britain, 12 April 1944.

PT-136 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, Malai Island, Vitiaz Strait, New Guinea, 17 September 1943.

PT-145 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, Mindiri, New Guinea, 4 January 1944.

PT-147 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, Teliata Point, New Guinea, 20 November 1943.

PT-153 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, near Munda Point, New Georgia, 4 July 1943.

PT-158 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, near Munda Point, New Georgia, 5 July 1943.

PT-172 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, off Vella Lavella, Solomon Islands, 7 September 1943.

PT-193 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, Noemfoor Island, New Guinea, 25 June 1944.

PT-219 damaged in storm and scrapped, near Attu, Aleutian Islands, 14 September 1943.

PT-239 destroyed by fire in port, Lambu Lambu, Vella Lavella, Solomon Islands,
14 December 1943.

PT-279 lost in collision, off Bougainville, Solomon Islands, 11 February 1944.

PT-301 damaged by explosion in port and scrapped, Mios Woendi, New Guinea,
7 November 1944.

PT-321 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, San Isidro Bay, Leyte, Philippine Islands, 11 November 1944.

PT-322 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, near Hardenberg Point, New Guinea, 23 November 1943.

PT-338 grounded, 27 January 1945, and destroyed as a result of grounding, not in enemy waters, Semirara Island, Philippine Islands, 31 January 1945.

PT-339 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, near Pur Pur, New Guinea, 27 May 1944.

PT-368 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, near Cape Salimoedi, Halmahera, Netherlands East Indies, 11 October 1944.

PT-371 grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture, near Tagalasa, Halmahera, Netherlands East Indies, 19 September 1944.

63 PT's were lost in the Pacific, of which 42 (!) were operational or friendly fire losses = 66.5%

< Message edited by timtom -- 9/22/2004 4:00:59 PM >


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RE: Serious one for a change - friendly fire - 9/22/2004 2:47:10 AM   
RUPD3658


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I would consider some of the operational losses to be friendly fire.

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