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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Decisive Battles: Battles in Normandy >> Demo?

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Demo? - 9/23/2004 2:21:30 AM

Stehlek

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Joined: 9/23/2004
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I'm looking at Bin/Korsun Pocket and I'd like to try out the demo first - where would I find one? I have HTTR - wonderful title (played the demo of Red Devils first which got me to buy HTTR).

Considering the price of $60 - quite a steep one when I usually pay $30 - $40 for most games (once every four or five months at that) and I'm very picky. It sounds from these forums to be a great game - but I need to be sure the "feel" is something I'll stick with for many months. Just reading descriptions doesn't do it for me - hands on is how I make my decisions.

Thanks for any help!

Good Day!

Stehlek

Post #: 1

RE: Demo? - 9/23/2004 3:07:06 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
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You will be advised by others that the Ardennes Offensive version 2 is a free download and a full game. However, other than giving you an idea as to the series' broad approach to hex based warfare, I don't believe it will offer the feel of either KP or the toutedly improved BiN.

What you are looking for in your games is not clear but my wants are two-fold:

1. Challenging, non-cheating AI.
2. Replayability.

At this point I only own KP. I've been playing it of late before being side-tracked by some other issues. Its AI is adequate but not challenging yet, to me its biggest shortfall, is replayability. KP is a game of breaching the flanks and rolling up the enemy, fighting the Wehrmacht as much as the weather.

BiN I believe will obviate this shotcoming by breaking the campaign into two large sectors: Landing to Breakout and Breakout to Pocket. Therefore, if after a week or two the landing game becomes tedious, move on to fighting the land side of cobra and beyond.

BiN also looks to have learned from KP in offering a larger number of smaller scenarios as well. However, reports regarding the AI on these have been mixed.

I'm very surprised that the number of posts on this game has been so low when compared to say, WITP. I'm wondering how many people are actually holding off due to price and how many will actually transfer into eventual ownership. Flashpoint Germany may just win my interest when my plate finally clears.

Adam.

(in reply to Stehlek)

Post #: 2

RE: Demo? - 9/23/2004 5:25:50 AM

jungelsj_slith

Posts: 244
Joined: 2/16/2004
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I think a demo would be a great (and perhaps necessary) boost for BiN.

I think the average gamer would take one look at the screenshots, one look at the price, and go find something else. If I hadn't have found KP for extremely cheap in the bargain bin, I definately would not have even considered BiN for $60.

(in reply to Stehlek)

Post #: 3

RE: Demo? - 9/23/2004 6:29:39 AM

Bodhi

Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

I'm very surprised that the number of posts on this game has been so low when compared to say, WITP. I'm wondering how many people are actually holding off due to price and how many will actually transfer into eventual ownership.

I think you'll find the number of posts on both the UV and WITP forums far outweigh those on KP/BIN/HTTR. Personally, I don't necessarily see it as a reflection of how well the games are regarded.

To be honest, I'm one who's holding off because of the price. I have KP, and I could never really get into it, so I'll probably revisit it again before I make any decision on buying BIN. In fact, I may well get ATD before I get BIN. However, if KP and then ATD hold my attention I'll have no problem paying the asking price; it just's the price is a bit too high for me to make an impulse purchase.

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Bodhi

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Post #: 4

RE: Demo? - 9/23/2004 6:46:07 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Guys,

Much as I wish it would be as easy as "release a demo, increase sales", it isn't. In fact, we have data and experience that indicate no effect or even a negative effect for wargames with a demo release. It depends on the game - somewhat complex wargames which require thought tend to get poor results from demos. Most customers who download demos don't give the demo enough time to really learn the game. Demos have to sell themselves quickly, without the full wargame manual and without the benefit of the normal time for a wargame learning curve.

The Ardennes Offensive is still out there as a way to get an idea of what the general system is about, but there are no plans for a demo version of Battles in Normandy. The game info here and at Run5 and both sets of forums with AARs are great resources for understanding how the game plays, how it looks and whether you'll enjoy it.

Regarding post volume, keep in mind that activity is split between here and the excellent community at Run5 as well.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 5

RE: Demo? - 9/23/2004 11:25:37 AM

jungelsj_slith

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That's depressing to hear, Erik. I know in my own case I have a couple of friends that aren't into wargaming but have seen me playing BiN and have thought it was interesting. If I could point them to a demo I would do so, but they sort of chuckled when I told them it was $60 through DD only :)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 6

RE: Demo? - 9/23/2004 6:52:57 PM

stevel40831

Posts: 83
Joined: 2/6/2004
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Erik,

What about in the future releasing a "demo" which would be simply the tutorial lesson that's normally included with the full game (along with the step-by-step tutorial manual)? Seems like that would be beneficial and couldn't hurt sales figures.

Steve

(in reply to jungelsj_slith)

Post #: 7

RE: Demo? - 9/24/2004 3:46:20 AM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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In the perfect world every game would have a demo

I played the demo for Red Devils Over Arnhem and if it were not for the demo, I would not have bothered with HTTR

I saw the predecessor to BIN, The Ardennes Offensive, (�TAO2�) in a box, on a shelf in the early 1990�s. I did not like the look of it and left it there.

Afterwards it was set up as a free download and its still available today but only runs on WIN 98.

I downloaded the game and was very impressed. I am now a great fan of KP and BIN and this game engine.

In both cases I was able to try before I bought. Reviews would have had no effect on my decision. Screen shots cannot do the game justice. And the fans will always say how wonderful it is even if it is not.

If a demo is not practical, then a movie is the other option. I feel the movie for HTTR was not so good.

The HTTR movie is more of a promotion. Instead, it ought to give the watcher the feeling he is playing a turn. Click here, check this detail, check that detail then give orders.
-

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Post #: 8

RE: Demo? - 9/26/2004 5:54:50 AM

scout1

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I frankly wasn't in the "Demo" camp, but frankly have changed my mind. I don't have alot to spend on games, at least not nearly what I'd like. I had decided that it would be an opertional level game and narrowed my choice to BiN & TOAW. Doing some homework, I found a demo for TOAW. After playing it, I have an idea what I'm getting and it has a tremendous following. Even if it is 10 years older, I think I'll get it and save $20 compared to BiN. In this case, "demo" wins.

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 9

RE: Demo? - 9/26/2004 6:57:18 AM

PresbyterJohn

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stevel40831

Erik,

What about in the future releasing a "demo" which would be simply the tutorial lesson that's normally included with the full game (along with the step-by-step tutorial manual)? Seems like that would be beneficial and couldn't hurt sales figures.

Steve

You could call it a DBWW2 demo, since it is for the system and not the battle. Not a bad idea.

(in reply to stevel40831)

Post #: 10

RE: Demo? - 10/2/2004 11:28:57 PM

Stehlek

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Joined: 9/23/2004
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Thanks for all of the feedback on this. I tried Ardennes Offensive awhile back and the AI was not bad, considering the time it was created. I, like a lot of others around here, am a veteran of AH/SPI/VG board games, and still play them (solitaire unfortunately) quite often.

I enjoy the turn-based experience over any real-time (though HttR is still my current favorite) game. What I like in a game is depth, lots of scenarios, campaigns that don't take a year to complete (real world time), adjustable AI (so I can improve my own play), and details, details, details. BiN looks like it promises all of this, and I am sure it does. Perhaps I'll check out Korsun Pocket (considering the price difference) first. Graphics are almost meaningless to me, as long as I can read the screen and have a good idea of what the display shows, I don't need flash and glitter.

HttR does all of the above, along with graphics that accomplish what I prefer. I have recommended it to several friends that enjoy WW2 along with challenging AI. Unfortunately, most of them are like myself - we prefer a demo (mostly just for tutorial purposes). If I couldn't direct them to the Red Devils demo, they probably would never have bought HttR. To be realistic with my "several friends" - I mean 6 people, five of whom bought HttR.

A demo that just gives a tutorial is what I should have said in my original post. I rarely play demos that only have a sample scenario. I learn at a slow, methodical pace (I like to check out everything, read everything, double-check what I learn, etc.). This is how I get enjoyment out of wargames - they are not just games, but history lessons. I don't get upset when I lose - I learn and try something different. Tutorials are indispensable when it comes to whether I like a game, and choose to purchase it or not.

This is too bad about the "never going to make a demo because it makes no difference for this type of game." For me, it would make a difference. Especially for the cost.

Good Day!

Stehlek

edit: I found Korsun Pocket for $35 from a retailer through Amazon.com's site. With shipping, I'm still at $41 - a few bucks less than getting Korsun through Matrix. So, I went ahead and purchased it - which version of TOA does it come with?

< Message edited by Stehlek -- 10/3/2004 7:39:15 PM >

(in reply to Stehlek)

Post #: 11

RE: Demo? - 10/4/2004 1:27:20 AM

ravinhood

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Some demos are good for some games and some are not. Take me for example, if you give me a demo of a FPS, you have lost a sale for the complete game (all except for BF1942, I liked that demo sooooooo much, I bought the game retail, it's the only FPS I liked since DOOM origional). The FPS demos come with enough gameplay to usually "bore" me quickly enough that I don't care to see the rest of it.

RTS demos, same thing, give me a free scenario/mission of an RTS game and I'll never buy the full version retail. I don't care for rts games anymore anyway. After 1000's of games of Age of Empires and Kohan, they all look and play the same after those. So any free demos are just a lost sale from me.

Wargame demos? If it's a real wargame, I don't need a demo, I'm going to buy it IF, big IF here, I can get it "retail". I don't like this direct download crap at all. All of us don't own "cable/dsl etc. etc. and I'm not going to waste $30 a month just to download some games. I pay $9.95 a month now and the only reason I do that is because I can only get PATCHES for these silly non-working games out of the box. Man, where's the good ole days where games worked out of the box and you never needed a patch? Bring back the ole 5-1/4 floppies! hehe and 5mb games or less. ;)

(in reply to Stehlek)

Post #: 12

RE: Demo? - 10/4/2004 5:37:49 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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But you aren't going to buy these games anyway are you? Sort of puts you right out of the target demographic from the word go. At least it doesn't require a manual and a download to post your opinion so it's not all bad.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 13

RE: Demo? - 10/6/2004 4:11:27 PM

Panzer76

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Joined: 7/6/2004
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With prices on these titles a demo should be available. When it comes down to it, no amount of AARs and descriptions can compare to actually trying the game.

I know this is a Matrix policy, and I strongly disagree with it. I think it will only hurt Matrix in the long run.

_____________________________

Cheers,
Panzer

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

Benjamin Franklin

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Post #: 14

RE: Demo? - 10/6/2004 5:26:35 PM

ravinhood

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Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

But you aren't going to buy these games anyway are you?

Where did I "ever" say I wasn't going to "buy" these Matrix games? I've never said that. I said I would "wait" and buy them at a discount, either through a garage sale, ebay, amazon.com or dvdempire, NWS, and any new sources I find, but, I've never said I wouldn't "buy" the games. I just buy them when the "price" is right for ME! ;)

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 15

RE: Demo? - 10/6/2004 6:13:56 PM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
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From: Colorado
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Hello my friend ravinhood,
If you are not interested in pbem you may RTW, I know the demo sucked, but it totally outclasses mtw, one of my all time favs... it really is an amazing strategy game, given the one glaring way to fast combat resolution modality. It does allow the same type choices as its predisecor, albiet with much better cleaner easier to use graphics/interface ...
regarding BIN, I am a huge decisive battles fan, thought they where ok, but too easy against the AI, but kick when pbem.

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Post #: 16

RE: Demo? - 10/6/2004 6:35:44 PM

PresbyterJohn

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

But you aren't going to buy these games anyway are you?

Where did I "ever" say I wasn't going to "buy" these Matrix games? I've never said that. I said I would "wait" and buy them at a discount, either through a garage sale, ebay, amazon.com or dvdempire, NWS, and any new sources I find, but, I've never said I wouldn't "buy" the games. I just buy them when the "price" is right for ME! ;)

Now there's an interesting concept. How do you intend to buy a direct download second hand? The guy selling it just sends you the registration number and a burnt CD? I wonder how many different people he will sell it to? Quite simply under the conditons you describe I don't think you are ever going to buy BiN. So what's the point of complaining about something you are never going to buy?

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 17