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Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!!

 
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Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/26/2004 8:43:39 PM   
PJJ

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		I'm playing as the Allies (PBEM), scen 16. It is the last week of February 1942, and I'm losing the war in Burma! Singapore fell 2 weeks earlier than historically, Rangoon 2 weeks after that and now I'm desperately trying to build a defensive line along the river that runs south of Mandalay (Irrawaddy?).

Is it at all possible to stop the Japanese? The Allied troops in Burma are useless, brigades and 'divisions'(imo, a unit with 3000 men is hardly worth the title!) are practically devastated after they lose one battle. How can I do anything with these troops?!

Don't the Japanese ever get tired? Don't they have any problems at all supplying their troops in Burma? I have a feeling that everything is happening far too quickly and easily with land warfare in WitP. (Or then I'm just a lousy player - a more probable choice!)

I'm starting to become desparate with the situation. I guess the Japanese jungle Blitzkrieg will soon be in India! I do have some reserves along the Indian coast & Ceylon, but knowing my opponent, if I withdraw them, he will immediately invade.

He agreed to play as the Japanese to give me a better chance, but it didn't help much!!!

_____________________________

"But here we are in a chamber pot, about to be ****ted upon."

-French General Auguste Ducrot before the Battle of Sedan, September 1870
Post #: 1
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/26/2004 9:11:54 PM   
Central Blue

 

Posts: 695
Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline 		PJJ...

if Japan wants Burma, Japan takes Burma. You need to fall back to Imphal-Kohima-Ledo and let him operate on supply lines stretching through the long jungle trails.

_____________________________

USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 2
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/26/2004 9:16:05 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Well advice in a PBEM game is not right :)

but would say, Airpower, bomb em, in a AI game, they will get tired out and change over to bombardment attacks, a human will just keep on attacking, but the odds will start to change

other then that, good luck

HARD_Sarge

_____________________________


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Post #: 3
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 12:05:18 AM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline 		To make it short and less painfull.

Land Combat is indeed broken in WitP. It's particularly easy to notice in the malay and Burma campaigns as well as obviously Hong Kong. Simply put, combat is much too fast, and movement a bit too fast.

I don't have any advice on how to defend Burma though, particularly for PBEM. By the way, I believe those small divisions do indeed just represent single brigades but allow you to build back their parent divisions (the entire divisions are spread out, with one of the brigades using the division ID and TOE).

Marc aka Caran...

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 4
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 1:16:39 AM   
WiTP_Dude


Posts: 1434
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Losing Burma is simply not a big deal. It will become a big headache for the Japanese in future years. India is still safe as long as you don't do anything foolish like committing your entire force to the defense of Mandalay.

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 5
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 1:19:41 AM   
John B

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Build up your defences along the Imphal-Kohima-Ledo line. I've played the early part of 1942 twice so far. Both times the Japs have overrun Singapore, Rangoon and Mandalay well ahead of historical schedule, but both times they have run out of steam soon afterwards, and got involved in the DEI. Its also worth leaving an expendable brigade or two forward of your main line. The Japs make pretty heavy weather of dealing with them, and it buys you more time to push up reinforcements from the units landing at Karachi.

Also put your Hurricane and Mohawk squadrons in Imphal, Kohima and Dacca. By mid 1942 the Jap air force is going to start bombing raids on them, and by about mid-August, your aircraft will have a definite edge and can start scoring points by knocking them down.

(in reply to Caranorn)
Post #: 6
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 9:16:26 AM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Move your Chinese Southeast Asia Command divisions dow towards Myitikina and Ledo, if you haven't already. They can help. Leave one or two in Yunan to protect the base there from partatroopers.

If you leave these units in China, you can't get them replacements very well, since they are pretty far from the SEAC HQ.

(in reply to John B)
Post #: 7
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 3:41:17 PM   
PJJ

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		OK, it seems the best thing to do is to abandon the Mandalay area ASAP. I don't want to lose all of my units trying to hold it. However, since the units are *so* weak, I doubt they'll be able to stop the Japanese even near Imphal, as a one good Jap division seems to be able to beat several British/Indian brigades or divisions in Burma.

And the High command is not very generous with reinforcements in India...guess they don't want to give me any new troops for slaughtering! I don't need any new BB's, I need infantry!
Otherwise the King must soon say goodbye to his empire in Asia...

Anyway, thanks for the help...if I manage to lose the war as the Allies, I'll let you know!

_____________________________

"But here we are in a chamber pot, about to be ****ted upon."

-French General Auguste Ducrot before the Battle of Sedan, September 1870

(in reply to esteban)
Post #: 8
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 4:12:48 PM   
Theng

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 12/13/2002
Status: offline 		You should get a two or three UK Divisions which are plenty to blunt the Japanese assault when they try to get into India. Also use the Chinese divisions to come down from China threatening the two nothern towns in Burma. Remember the Japanese have only 4 or 5 divisions in the Burma theater, which cannot be everywhere. You have enough troops to stall his advance and create some thrust somewhere else, which can get him into serious problems. If he's pushing through on the coast, take Akyab with an amphibious assault and then come down from China. The Japanese have bigger problems than you have in a few months.

_____________________________

Molon Labe!

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 9
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 6:57:39 PM   
Rob322

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline 		You mentioned 3000 troops doesn't seem like much of a division but even full strength US divisions aren't going to have 14,000 front line troops, they'll have something like 4,000 infantry and 10,000 second line (all those guys in the rear). Also Chinese "Divisions" really are brigades so you should send several. Chinese "Corps" are the rough equivalent to Japanese and Western divisions, at lest in terms of size.

Also remember the Chinese have to get there via trail so they will be slow. I learned this to my regret in my first solo game, now I start them out on December 8th.

< Message edited by Rob322 -- 9/27/2004 4:58:22 PM >

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 10
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 7:35:51 PM   
PJJ

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob322

You mentioned 3000 troops doesn't seem like much of a division but even full strength US divisions aren't going to have 14,000 front line troops, they'll have something like 4,000 infantry and 10,000 second line (all those guys in the rear).



Oh, if only I had divisions with 3000 fighting men in Burma! But these so-called divisions have about 3-4000 men in TOTAL, so that's about 1000 frontline troops and 2000+ rear area guys. It's pretty hard to try to stop a full-strength Jap Inf Div with these!

_____________________________

"But here we are in a chamber pot, about to be ****ted upon."

-French General Auguste Ducrot before the Battle of Sedan, September 1870

(in reply to Rob322)
Post #: 11
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 7:41:05 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Retreat from where you can't hold to a line you can defend. The farther back you retreat the closer to your supply you get and the further the Japanese supply line is stretched. Use you airgroups to attack his units.
Don't panic.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 12
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 7:45:23 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Doesn't anyone keep a Hitchhiker's guide to the universe handy?

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Post #: 13
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 8:04:28 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Doesn't anyone keep a Hitchhiker's guide to the universe handy


And a towel. Never go anywhere without your towel.

_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 14
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 8:11:56 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		The answer is 42

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 15
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 8:22:17 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		uoiu1oj oijo ttyy ooiivsoo mommos mooop?

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Post #: 16
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 8:52:05 PM   
KPAX


Posts: 735
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

Move your Chinese Southeast Asia Command divisions dow towards Myitikina and Ledo, if you haven't already. They can help. Leave one or two in Yunan to protect the base there from partatroopers.

If you leave these units in China, you can't get them replacements very well, since they are pretty far from the SEAC HQ.



I thought that there was some restrictions on moving troops as an Allied from China to Burna ?


Is there a restirction for Japan miving China troops to Burma ?

_____________________________

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)



Thanks !!

KPAX

(in reply to esteban)
Post #: 17
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 8:55:43 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

I thought that there was some restrictions on moving troops as an Allied from China to Burna ?


Is there a restirction for Japan miving China troops to Burma ?


Move 'em anyplace you like, you just can't load them onto ships or planes.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to KPAX)
Post #: 18
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 9:21:20 PM   
dr. smith

 

Posts: 221
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: lost in space
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

Move your Chinese Southeast Asia Command divisions dow towards Myitikina and Ledo, if you haven't already. They can help. Leave one or two in Yunan to protect the base there from partatroopers.

If you leave these units in China, you can't get them replacements very well, since they are pretty far from the SEAC HQ.


I thought that there was some restrictions on moving troops as an Allied from China to Burna ?



There are 9 Chinese Army Divisions in Southeast Asia command, as opposed to China Command, all located at Yunan. They each have an Assault value of 72-79, so should be of some help, Yunan is 4 hexes via trail from either Lashio or Mytikyina, so get them moving ASAP.

No need to leave any Southeast Asia comamnd units in Yunan, there are plenty of China Command units there already.

< Message edited by dr. smith -- 9/27/2004 2:22:47 PM >

(in reply to KPAX)
Post #: 19
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/27/2004 11:33:07 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Retreat from where you can't hold to a line you can defend. The farther back you retreat the closer to your supply you get and the further the Japanese supply line is stretched. Use you airgroups to attack his units.
Don't panic.


Mogami's right..., but it also sounds as if you botched the Malayan Campaign pretty
badly. Did you try to hold every hex?? Or did everyone not engaged "beat feet"
for Singapore right off the bat? The secons alternative seems to produce a more
demanding campaign for the Japanese..., especially if you can run in some supply
in the early going. Sucking Japanese resources into Malaya seems to put the Burma
effort on hold.

_____________________________


(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 20
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/28/2004 4:14:47 PM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline 		I tend to try 4 defensive spots (Siam border, Kuala Lumpur or Mallaca, Johore Bahru and finally Singapore) in the Malay campaign (not including the Malay East Coast). Defending every hex obviously wouldn't work, withdrawing to Singapore right away without previous defensive positions shouldn't work either. Each of those defensive spots requires at least two to three fresh brigades and some fortifications.

In the end you will have beat up brigades of no fighting value at Singapore. Withdraw those to the NEI or India to rebuild and fight again later. Possibly even withdraw some additional battered units once Singapore is close to falling (particularly the Aussies and the 65+ experience Indians (a fighting withdrawal will give you good quality)).

And yes, the Burma and Malaya campaigns are closely tied together. Though in WitP the Japanese can actually pursue both at the same time which is unfortunate.

Regardless, fighting in Southern Burma should be only delaying actions. central Burma you should try to hold if possible to maintain the Road to China. But only the final line in Northern Burma and Southern India is essential, so you can give up Central Burma.

Marc aka Caran...

P.S.: Aren't at least some of the SEAC Chinese divisions actually western trained (Stillwell) units of respectable size? They definitelly should be used to defend the left wing of the central Burma line.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 21
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/28/2004 4:59:57 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, In WITP the Japanese have the
IG, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 15th, 16th, 18th, 21st, 38th, 48th, 55th 56th Divisons and 6 Bde to fight with.
The SNLF and NG units are only good for conducting unopposed landings or for places where defense is very weak.

No matter where the Japanese player decides to go he only has 12 Div and 6 Bde to use.

If he gives 15th Army 2 Div that lowers what can be used in the South.
The 21st and 38th Divs are out of play until Hong Kong is captured and replacement units can be sent to Hanoi.

(Historically 15th Army did not enter Burma before Singapore was captured. And then it was reinforced by 2 Div from 25th Army)

So Assuming 15th Army has it's 2 Div and the 21st and 38th are busy that leaves just 8 Div and 6 Bde for DEI, Malaya and PI.

The IG div is going to walk or has to wait for transport. It will almost always be used in Malaya.

Down to 7 Div and 6 Bde to commit where the Japanese player chooses.
It seems many people think the Japanese can just go where ever they want. But the truth is if the Japanese use fewer then 5 Div in PI they will stall. If they send fewer then 5 Div to Malaya they will stall. (unless the Allied player allows the PI or Malaya forces to be engaged piecemeal and the isolated parts destroyed) The trick for the Allied player is to prolong the battle at both Singapore and in PI to prevent the release of forces from one operation to aid the other.

Withdrawing from Singapore early changes the picture because it allows PI to be reinforced and 15th Army to be reinforced early. (This releases at least 4 Japanese divisions)
I don't think you'll find the Japanese advancing into Burma if Singapore is held in force. The Allied forces in PI if they gather at Clark can hold till the cows come home unless the Japanese sends 5 or 6 divisions.
The Japanese Bde can take most of the DEI but require time to do so and the Japanese player has to commit the bulk of his LBA and surface ships to escorting the transports.

This means in the Central and South Pacific he will be using SNLF and NG units. (And the South Seas Detachment) The Allied player can choose a few places to reinforce beyond the means of these units to take.

Most of the AAR I read and the PBEM I am playing only see rapid Japanese advance where there is also a rapid Allied withdrawal or the Allied player allows his forces to be divided.

(In PI it is possible for the Japanese to cut off at least 4 divisions if Allied player tries to hold too many bases. In Malaya 30-50k troops can be cut off in the north and never take part in battle for Singapore)

One thing that greatly aids the Japanese is the early withdrawl of Allied air groups.

In China the Japanese can do nothing but take a few advanced bases unlesss the Allied player commits the Chinese to forward defense. If the Chinese just back up to the second line the Japanese cannot mass the force to advance. They have to destroy a large part of Chinese Army forward to succeed at the second line.

Of course all of this is between two human players. The Human Japanese can jump from offensive too ffensive much faster then against a human Allied player who is fighting back.

So I don't think a generic blanket statment like "The Japanese can move too fast" is always true without adding "When the Allied player refuse to fight or allows his forces to be divided into pockets")

No matter how skilled the Japanese player might be he still only has 12 Div and 6 Bde to fight with. Once the Allied player learns what force is being used where it becomes simple mathamatics to calculate what force he needs in place to halt the Japanese advance at any particular point. The longer the Allied player can tie down Japanese forces the sooner he will meet his defensive requirements on the fringe of Japanses expansion.

It might be better in the long run to reinforce Singapore. Even if this only buys another month of combat in Malaya it ties down Japanese forces for a further month.
The Japanese air combat bonus wears out over time. Make it wear out over Malaya and PI and not over Port Moresby or Calcutta.
The longer you require the IJN to support operations the more Japanese ships will require refit periods (and be unavailable for future operations in other theaters)

Don't let the Japanese have a free hand and then say they move too fast. They do not move fast against a solid Allied defense. The DEI, Malaya, PI and China are not pushovers
but they do require a logical plan of defense. You have to pose problems for the Japanese not solve them. Removing your airgroups solves his aircontrol problem and allows rapid redeployment of LCU and concentration of Japanese offensive airpower. Allowing your scattered forces to be cutoff and destroyed piecemenal allows the Japanese to employ fewer formations in that area. Moving the Chinese forward and having a large portion cutoff and destroyed allows future Japanese advances. He does not need to maintain strength and many points but can concentrate more force for his future attacks. (200k Chinese blocking a road 180-240 miles form closest Japanese supply point is going to be an obstacle the Japanese cannot move. )

Just as the Japanese player needs a long term plan for operations at start the Allied player needs to plan and execute a series of defensive operations. He needs to pose an offensive threat where he can. (1 successful naval battle in DEI is enough to give the Japanese player pause) Forget about capturing Japanese bases in China like Canton or Nanning you need the units for defense else where but if the Japanese player advances a force that you can cut off and destroy do it. To do it you'll need a large reserve of units and you cannot maintain this by being forward deployed or advancing far to the south.
Make the IJA your target not any geographical location. I really don't see how the Japanese can enter India if the Allied player begins setting up the defense on turn 1.

OH well theres my .05 worth.

I can't get too specific about my Allied defensive plan because after the patch is released I have 2 very skilled Japanese opponenets who are going to begin PBEM with me. Once these games begin the AAR will show my Allied plan in practice. I only have 1 game as Allies currently and the Japanese player is not doing AAR on the game.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/28/2004 10:17:51 AM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Caranorn)
Post #: 22
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/28/2004 8:06:57 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		I didn't see this mentioned:
The SEAC HQ is on Sri Lanka at start.. Move it to the mainland (I like Dacca or Jorhat) so it can help the infantry units build up - this will also serve to pull supply closer to the front. Otherwise it serves no purpose on that island...

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

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Post #: 23
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/28/2004 8:17:16 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PJJ

OK, it seems the best thing to do is to abandon the Mandalay area ASAP. I don't want to lose all of my units trying to hold it. However, since the units are *so* weak, I doubt they'll be able to stop the Japanese even near Imphal, as a one good Jap division seems to be able to beat several British/Indian brigades or divisions in Burma.

And the High command is not very generous with reinforcements in India...guess they don't want to give me any new troops for slaughtering! I don't need any new BB's, I need infantry!
Otherwise the King must soon say goodbye to his empire in Asia...

Anyway, thanks for the help...if I manage to lose the war as the Allies, I'll let you know!



Bring forward some troops and make a stand at Mandalay, but leave enough in forward Indian bases to prevent any rear guard silliness. Too late now for you, but I like to move those 9 Chinese Inf Divisions in Yunan attached to Southeast Asia to Mandalay on turn one. Hopefully you have building forts since day on in your front guard Indian bases and Mandalay. I am in 6 Mar 1942 an I have three nonChinese divisions (one UK) and 9 Chinese inf divs in Mandalay, some armour, lots of artillery and fort level of 8. 91 Avaiation support troops and the AVG there ready to hold off the Japs, who are arriving en-force from Malaysia.

He will still take Mandalay but by the time I fall back to Imphal and elsewhere, I will have fortifications built up to 5 or greater everywhere and some crack UK divisions beginning to arrive. I also have a pretty potent Britich Air Force building up in Dacca. He has to come across three or four hexes of trails to attack you in India, meaning he probably can't becasue he can't supply a large enough force to take you out behind those forts, especially getting bombed from Dacca and Calcutta....

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 9/28/2004 6:18:39 PM >

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 24
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/30/2004 5:23:18 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

Hi, In WITP the Japanese have the
IG, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 15th, 16th, 18th, 21st, 38th, 48th, 55th 56th Divisons and 6 Bde to fight with.
The SNLF and NG units are only good for conducting unopposed landings or for places where defense is very weak.....[etc]

@Mogami: I thought this was a great post, I found it very interesting. One thing I am still trying to grasp: how can you include the 15th Division in this "available" list? It is located in Nanking, attached to China Expeditionary Army. It would cost 2662 PPs to change this assignment so that it could be loaded on transports. You do list the 55th Division, which belongs to Burma Area Army; instead of the 15th were you perhaps thinking of the 33rd Division, which also belongs to this command, and which begins the game marching along the (sorry, I cannot think of this road feature any other way) Ho Chi Minh Trail?

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

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Post #: 25
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/30/2004 5:44:09 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Yes it is 33rd Div. I was thinking of units assigned to 15th Army.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 26
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/30/2004 2:40:07 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Thanks again. This has helped me a great deal in further revising the latest revision of my re-revised GT1 plan.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 27
RE: Help needed, Burma front is collapsing!!! - 9/30/2004 4:48:14 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		so much for conquoring all of Oz and India....

oh well....i'm settling on a drive for Dacca right now. why? jus cause. (i'm bored.....having defeated the AI in the SoPac)



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Post #: 28
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