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WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/20/2004 4:22:44 AM

meyerg

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Name the neutral country most Japanese players try to jump early in the latest edition of WiF. Clue: this country has oil.
greg

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RE: WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/20/2004 5:05:21 AM

Mziln

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Dutch East Indies - If Germany declaires war on Holland.

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RE: WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/20/2004 6:13:54 AM

meyerg

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Clarification: by early i mean S/O or N/D '39.
I play aggressively and even I will not take East Indies in '39. To take this country in S/O '39 requires at least three impulse.
greg

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RE: WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/20/2004 10:50:37 AM

vonpaul

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Persia

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RE: WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/20/2004 3:14:49 PM

Mziln

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonpaul

Persia

Nope, Persia is conqured by the U.S.S.R. on the first clear weather turn after occupying Eastern Poland and the Baltic States.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/20/2004 1:17:42 PM >

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RE: WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/21/2004 6:13:29 AM

meyerg

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Not if Japan gets it first.

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RE: WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/21/2004 11:34:39 AM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Nope, Persia is conqured by the U.S.S.R. on the first clear weather turn after occupying Eastern Poland and the Baltic States.

Japan can always DoW Russia while the Bear is taking Persia, take Vladivostok and a couple of resources. Then if Russia tries to come out there to fight in '40, set up a defensive perimeter in Siberia and go invade Persia from Siam. Of course, this is not hammering on the Chinese. Rather than fighting to reclaim territory in Siberia, the Russians can always go to peace instead, their most advisable course, assuming that option is chosen. If Persia is what the Japanese want, on the other hand, they could postpone taking Vladivostok, denying the Russians a forced peace.

< Message edited by coregames -- 10/21/2004 9:40:11 AM >

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RE: WiF strategy quiz for Japan - 10/21/2004 6:12:26 PM

Mziln

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The Soviets advancing from [72,82] attack Tehran on the first turn first clear weather pahse after phase one with a 6-4, a 5-4, a 1-5, and 1 or 2 bombers. Persia is captured.

You can always rail the Soviet Armored infantry Army from Penza [46, 71] into Siberia on first phase (arrives in Krasnoyarsk [40, 121]). Assuming Japan dosn't declare war on the Soviets prior to Soviet invasion of Persia.

Closest Japanese base for operations against Persia on turn one is Fukuoka Japan [78, 158]. First naval movement phase will get transports and amphibs to Bay of Bengal.

Assuming Japan can land a force at Bandar Shapar [81, 77] and advances toward Tehran (Capital of Persia). It will take at least 2 land movement phases for the land force to reach and attack Tehran.

The Dutch East Indies are closer than Persia and require less convoys.

A Japanese Dutch East Indies deprives the Commonwealth player of 2 oil. The down side 2 political chits and 80% probability of a third.

A Soviet Persia deprives the Commonwealth of 1 oil. The down side 90% probability of removal of a political chit.

Commonwealth down 3 oil.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/21/2004 6:42:58 PM >

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To take NEI early or not? - 10/22/2004 7:03:22 AM

meyerg

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Mziln, do you think Dutch East Indies is worth 2.8 entry chits early? I have never even considered this (although this doesn't mean it isn't a good idea). I do consider Persia a good option (unless Russia is set up for it).
greg

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/24/2004 5:50:18 AM

Mziln

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It's an option that reduces Commonwealth resources.

Consider this:

Soviets vs. Persia

(1) The Soviets will only receive 2 of the 4 Persian oil resources because 2 are not connected to the rail net. This is a slight increase for the Soviets.

(2) The Soviets are Neutral and can't use the Suez Cannal. Convoys necessary to get the other 2 oil will need to come from Vladivostok.

(3) I have never liked the way the Soviet Navy is deployed it is easily destroyed by German air units. Relocating to Archangel would allow the Soviet Navy to defend convoys going to Murmansk.

Japan vs. Netherlands

(1) Since you get a political action chit each turn. 3 chits are equal to a 3 turn increase on possiable U.S.A. entry.

(2) Japan gets to practice Naval and amphibious operations against a weak enemy.

(3) Japan gets 4 oil resources early.

(4) Japan needs to declare war with Holland before Germany adds them to the Allies.

Strategically

Japan has a eaisly defended convoy route to NEI oil when war starts. If Japan takes Persia you will be pressed to continue to receive Persian oil. Japan can still go to war in Siberia to take 3 resources from the Soviets to offset the invasion of Persia when they are ready.

The Commonwealth has had its available resources reduced and India is seriously threatened.

The U.S.A. is now encirclerd in the Phillipines.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/24/2004 4:32:42 AM >

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/24/2004 6:39:25 AM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

(3) Japan gets 4 oil resources early.

Since early in the war Japan gets two of these oil anyway as part of a trade agreement, I don't think it is quite worth it. Facing the behemoth of the Americans three turns early for two extra resources a turn, even with the cost to CW oil, just doesn't seem worth it. I like to put off war with the U.S. as long as possible. Still, there is compensation as you've pointed out, so it's probably somewhat a matter of taste.

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/25/2004 12:37:54 PM

Droop21

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Unless rules changed recently, taking on the NEI has a huge drawback: the USA get an extra entry chit per turn

. If I'm playing an allied, do declare war to the NEI in 1939, So I can be on a war footing by late 1940

. If you go for a USSR strategy and don't want to capture Vlad, beware of the Soviet subs (a devious Soviet player will go for your US convoy chain)

< Message edited by Droop -- 10/25/2004 10:38:16 AM >

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/26/2004 3:12:40 AM

Mziln

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Droop

Unless rules changed recently, taking on the NEI has a huge drawback: the USA get an extra entry chit per turn.

I didn't find this in the rules or charts included with CWiF. Is this part of the RAW

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/26/2004 10:45:05 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

I didn't find this in the rules or charts included with CWiF. Is this part of the RAW

yes, just checked it against the current charts for WiFD; one extra chit per turn if Japan DoW's the Dutch, the British, or the French. I guess the NEI are not such a good early option after all.

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/27/2004 10:09:43 AM

vonpaul

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Its been like that for ages (if not from the start of Final edition)

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/27/2004 1:24:55 PM

Mziln

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CWiF > Tools > Rules Ctrl-L

13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5 (add two chits + 80% chance of another)

NOTES FOR US ENTRY ACTIONS:

3. The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool.

5. Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

"Conquests by surrender" is is not defined in CWiF

I assume it meens like the option CWiF gives the Commonwealth player to align Poland. While Search refers to "Search and Seizure".

Russia Conquers Persia First

31. USSR declares war on (Ge/It): Other minor (in this case Persia) or Vichy France 5 (90% chance to remove chit)

9. Japan declares war on USSR (Ja) (70% chance to add a chit)

(IMO) Japan now fights a land campaign in Siberia instead of Persia and ignores China. This will weaken Japan and the Soviets. How much depends on the length of the war.

There are no notes on how to establish "Neutrality Pacts" (where is Molotov when you need him?) and this assumes there will be no "Manual Setup".

Note: I cut and pasted only the relevant lines from the CWiF charts.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/27/2004 12:55:50 PM >

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/27/2004 8:56:42 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

....
Conquests by surrender" is is not defined in CWiF
....
....
There are no notes on how to establish "Neutrality Pacts" (where is Molotov when you need him?) and this assumes there will be no "Manual Setup".
....

Surrender and neutrality pacts had not yet been implemented in Marinacci's beta, if I remember correctly.

13.7.6 Surrender
During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.
Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1) of the major power if it doesn�t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

The rule for neutrality pacts is much longer, but you can download the current RaW from ADG's site if you want to read it.

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/28/2004 7:00:04 PM

Mziln

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But th NEI is not a major power.

As I stated previously Germany would invade Holland and Japan the NEI.

13.7.1 Conquest

You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with
the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.

Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory
is instead conquered by the minor�s controlling major power (unless it
is not at war, see 2.5).

You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may
only liberate or revert it (see 13.7.5).

Complete conquest

When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any
aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it
is at peace with everyone it was at war with.

So the question is:

If Germany Conquers Holland and Japan the NEI does the extra chit draw per turn stop

Has "Conquest by Surrender" occured

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/28/2004 7:35:56 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

As I stated previously Germany would invade Holland and Japan the NEI.

If Germany Conquers Holland and Japan the NEI does the extra chit draw per turn stop

Has "Conquest by Surrender" occured

Surrender only occurs at the defending power's discretion... and the CW won't surrender. The NEI are under the control of the Dutch, who most likely are under the control of the English. The Japanese can be at war with the Dutch and not with the CW:

...You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with
the major power or minor country that controls it.

So, to conquer the NEI requires a DoW on the Netherlands proper. If the Germans conquer the Dutch, the government in exile will probably be in the NEI.

No way around the extra chit per turn.

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 10/28/2004 8:07:07 PM

Mziln

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On to the conquest of Dutch Guyana (the other NE minor power), complete conquest, and peace.

"Has the Emperor taken New York yet?" - Mad Magazine.

Reasons the Soviets should conquer Persia

All rules listed can be found in WiF-RAW-7-aug-04.

(1) The oil of course.

(2) This gives them another Minor Power besides Mongolia in case of rule "13.7.6 Surrender". This Assumes that the Soviets haven't implemented rule "19.12 The Ukraine (option 62)".

(3) This stops rule "19.7 Axis minor countries - Persia and Iraq" from being implemented.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/30/2004 4:00:46 PM >

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 11/2/2004 12:50:42 PM

Droop21

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Two small corrections:

- Complete conquest of the Netherlands (after conquest of Dutch Guyana and the NEI) will not stop the chit draw

- Conquering Persia will not give USSR another alternative home country in case of conquest: only a aligned countries count to avoid conquest

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RE: To take NEI early or not? - 11/2/2004 11:24:20 PM

vonpaul

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quite frankly if Russia is looking for a new homecountry its time to give up!

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Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/7/2004 7:04:03 AM

meyerg

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Answer: So, if Russia is not set up to get Persia, I think Japan should get it.

Second Question (Russia strategy quiz). Do we all think Russia should jump Persia immediately? Japan can get it on the third impulse of the game if they want it.

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RE: Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/7/2004 7:11:06 AM

Mziln

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meyerg

Answer: So, if Russia is not set up to get Persia, I think Japan should get it.

Second Question (Russia strategy quiz). Do we all think Russia should jump Persia immediately? Japan can get it on the third impulse of the game if they want it.

Russia strategy quiz: YUP, Russia should jump Persia then on to Iraq (2 more oil).

< Message edited by Mziln -- 11/7/2004 5:13:13 AM >

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RE: Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/7/2004 2:45:04 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meyerg

Answer: So, if Russia is not set up to get Persia, I think Japan should get it.

Second Question (Russia strategy quiz). Do we all think Russia should jump Persia immediately? Japan can get it on the third impulse of the game if they want it.

The problem with pouncing on Persia early is that it is giving oil to the CW, as is Iraq. I believe Russia should think carefully before this move, since the forces commited there may preclude a Finnish or Rumanian demand, and may lead to a weak Siberian defence. If Japan aligns Persia instead of Germany when Russia attacks, they can even DoW Russia on turn one and rebase troops to a Persian port before conquest.

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RE: Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/7/2004 6:12:57 PM

Mziln

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames
The problem with pouncing on Persia early is that it is giving oil to the CW, as is Iraq. I believe Russia should think carefully before this move, since the forces commited there may preclude a Finnish or Rumanian demand, and may lead to a weak Siberian defence. If Japan aligns Persia instead of Germany when Russia attacks, they can even DoW Russia on turn one and rebase troops to a Persian port before conquest.

A weaker Siberian defence? Yes this is true if there is a Sino-Soviet ground war.

Finland and Rumania are minor neutrals and can't threaten the Soviets.

5.1 Trade agreements

A neutral Persia must supply the Commonwealth with 1 of its oil resources each turn.

A neutral Iraq must supply France with 1 of its oil resources each turn (to bad for France).

< Message edited by Mziln -- 11/7/2004 4:15:40 PM >

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RE: Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/7/2004 11:15:39 PM

coregames

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Because Russia can't force peace unless Japan takes Vladivostok, the Japanese can DoW, surround Vlad (but wait to actually take it), and pour every spare troop into Persia, taking the oil Russia was aiming at, or at the very least, making Russia very weak against a '41 Barbarossa. The extra front Russia must defend, plus possible losses in Siberia and Persia, could prove problematic if the Axis plays right. Japan is always itching for something to do with their forces early in the war, and Russia is more attractive than China, since the Germans are helping squeeze from the other side; conquest is much more likely in that scenario.

As to the Finnish Borderlands and/or claim on Bessarabia, that extra space helps the Germans early in Barbarossa. Resolving the Balkans especially is helpful for rolling on Greece, and clearing up the political situation. When I first started playing WiF, as Russia I did go after Persia and Iraq. Nowadays, I prefer claiming Bessarabia early (1st Impulse 1940), to keep the Germans uncomfortable in the Balkans. A 1940 Persia and Iraq will still succeed if necessary (Germans take Suez for instance).

It is true though that the Iraqi oil is France's, and Russia is well served by taking it at the right time, if the Axis doesn't oppose Russia's Persian maneuvers. Though I admit I haven't seen a Japanese reinforcement of Persia on turn one, I've looked at it and the next time Russia tries that, I will put it to the test.

Has anyone seen Japan reinforce Persia like that (during an early Russian invasion)? I am very curious about the implications.

< Message edited by coregames -- 11/8/2004 1:53:50 AM >

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RE: Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/8/2004 4:05:35 AM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Finland and Rumania are minor neutrals and can't threaten the Soviets.

If the Germans do the currently popular move - conquer Yugoslavia immediately after Poland before returning to crush France - the Balkans situation is resolved, as all three balkan axis minors enter the war on subsequent impulses. Suddenly, those pesky minors add to the German garrison. From what I hear on the Yahoo boards, this is very effective. It also allows Italy to line up on Greece much better than they did historically (Bulgaria as a second front). To prevent this, an early claim of Bessarabia, with the forces necessary to push the Rumanians back if they deny the claim, is powerful strategically. Of course, something would have to give. Persia has its compensation, but I prefer Bessarabia.

I still don't quite understand why the Russians went for Finland historically. It seems the weakest of the three options.

< Message edited by coregames -- 11/8/2004 2:11:20 AM >

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RE: Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/8/2004 4:51:49 AM

meyerg

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Another question for Russia. How much force to set up on the Pacific map? I used to like to threaten Japan early to tie down some forces early. Getting caught with too much on the Pacific map in Summer 40 if Japan attacks can be disastrous.
greg

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RE: Strategy quiz answer? Russia strategy quiz - 11/8/2004 6:36:46 AM

Mziln

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Your Arguments are

(1) 3 units are too much to remove from Siberia because of the possability of war with Japan.

(A)

quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames
The Japanese can DoW, surround Vlad (but wait to actually take it)

(2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames
Persia has its compensation, but I prefer Bessarabia

(A) You have to use 3 Siberian units to capture Persia in one turn. This leaves the rest of the Soviet army to take the Bessarabia option.

(3) The Soviets will become stronger and Japan will some how become weaker by capturing the Persian and Iraq oil fields.

(A) Aside from creating a unprotectable convoy route to Persia and plunging Japan into a direct confrotation with the Allies. Commonwealth players, when war starts with Japan do you them on two sides of India? You may as well start the war while Japan is at its weakest.

(4) Japan needs somthing to do early in the war outside of the Paciific theater.

(A) So do the Soviets and you can win in Persia. Finland - the supply situation is a disaster. Bessarabia - Although this is the better of the two oprions it can be stopped by weak German infantry reinforcements.

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