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French Guards and replacements - 10/20/2004 7:42:01 AM   
Forward_March

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/26/2003
Status: offline 		Having read avidly, I think the way Guards are created for France is a little hokey...or the corps makeup for that matter. If I had my druthers, there'd be two types of French Guard, young and old.

The Old Guard would be the force that commits for the coup de grace feature of the game. The Young Guard would be elite infantry created the way it always has been for EIA that would fight the way as normal infantry.

The old Guard would be created as it was historically by being drawn from the regulars...a few bucks for uniform changes and extra pay...and then some time for transfer. It wouldn't be so big, either. The two Old Guard divisions together never attained 40K men.

Another thing I never liked, either was that at each turn you could morph your new bodies all the way from the France to Russia as long as you owned the territory...as if they'd flown United Airlines. I think that's just a bit silly. I had a game once that had march regiments. They started at a depot on the map edge and had to move at the regular rate to the front...no beaming me over, Scotty. It'd be a long march from Marseille to say....Warsaw. Imagine the forethought you'd have to put in to your game.

OK, OK...it's too much for some people. I just wonder if there's anyone else out there that thinks likewise.
Post #: 1
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/20/2004 8:18:33 PM   
shanebosky

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/23/2004
Status: offline 		I say give the man his druthers.

(in reply to Forward_March)
Post #: 2
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/21/2004 9:59:36 AM   
eg0master

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		I have not found it that strange even though the thought of reinforcement corps sounds interesting.
I find the existing system realistics since:
1) Troops transported/marched along a supply route would probably cover a lot more ground than a corp operating as a military unit never sure of where and when they might be engaged in combat.
2) If #1 is not enough, consider troops being moved to their destination as part of their training. Nothing says all units must be trained if France if French. You get manpower from all over the world so you probably train some people where they are reqruited and if they are intended for the russian war, part of the 3 months training would probably be moving them there.

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(in reply to shanebosky)
Post #: 3
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/21/2004 3:36:14 PM   
Chef

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 10/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Forward_March
Another thing I never liked, either was that at each turn you could morph your new bodies all the way from the France to Russia as long as you owned the territory...as if they'd flown United Airlines. I think that's just a bit silly. I had a game once that had march regiments. They started at a depot on the map edge and had to move at the regular rate to the front...no beaming me over, Scotty. It'd be a long march from Marseille to say....Warsaw. Imagine the forethought you'd have to put in to your game.


Sounds like how La Grande Armee handled replacements and reinforcements. I really like how that game handled movement. Unfortunately the combat system and political system was bad, IMO.

Chef

(in reply to Forward_March)
Post #: 4
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/21/2004 10:46:03 PM   
shanebosky

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/23/2004
Status: offline 		It's probably too late to change reinforcements systems, or it might upset game balance too much, but I definitely think the Guard Corps should be split into two corps, the second of which has less morale, can only be commited one shift, and comes into the game at a later date.

(in reply to Chef)
Post #: 5
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/22/2004 12:15:13 AM   
1LTRambo


Posts: 313
Joined: 8/31/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with the idea of two guard corp. An old guard that can 2 shift and a young guard that can only shift one. But I would say that new guard factors can only be placed in the young guard and that you have to pay for guard factors to be updated to the old guard. Something similar to militia to infantry factor upgrades. What say you?

(in reply to shanebosky)
Post #: 6
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/22/2004 3:10:16 AM   
shanebosky

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/23/2004
Status: offline 		Good idea says I. France starts out with Old Guard, but once the Young Guard corp is introduced, a factor has to pay its dues in the Young Guard corp for a little while before kicking it up. Problem with this scenario is: How does France build guard units before the young guard corp is introduced? (Not sure historically, but wasn't it 1808 or something like that?)

(in reply to 1LTRambo)
Post #: 7
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/22/2004 3:35:25 AM   
Forward_March

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/26/2003
Status: offline 		France would build the Young Guard the way everyone builds guards currently...what is it, 7 bucks and 2 manpower? The Old Guard would be created by 4 bucks, and shifting 2 factors from other units.

In Answer to Rambo, the Young Guard would fight just as regular infantry...perhaps given a morale boost to make them 4.5. They're not associated anywhere with the Bearskinned Grognards in delivering a coup de Grace. But on many occasions, they went in with the line from the outset.

It's just a historical thing, anyway

(in reply to shanebosky)
Post #: 8
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/24/2004 11:01:06 PM   
Camile Desmoulins


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Personally I think that Avalon Hill game was not perfect, but had an excellent internal balance, so easy of altering that it is extremely delicate to try change things without test a lot. We are in danger of inventing a new game

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"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to 1LTRambo)
Post #: 9
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/24/2004 11:30:39 PM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		Is that a bad thing?

It cannot BE THE SAME, as it is a different medium.

Is it not better to adapt to the new medium and test to ensure playability and balance on its own, without relying on the balance inherent in the boardgame?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camile Desmoulins

Personally I think that Avalon Hill game was not perfect, but had an excellent internal balance, so easy of altering that it is extremely delicate to try change things without test a lot. We are in danger of inventing a new game


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(in reply to Camile Desmoulins)
Post #: 10
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/26/2004 9:44:42 PM   
shanebosky

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/23/2004
Status: offline 		I've played in quite a few games where France beat on Spain and Prussia, and they didn't feel it was particularly balanced. Also had games where 5 or 6 countries beat on 1, adn the 1 never felt like he was getting the best of balance. The "internal balance" of EiA is whatever the players make of it. Balance of power is the nature of European politics, and I usually don't see how most of the changes suggested in these forums have much to do with "game balance".

(in reply to denisonh)
Post #: 11
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/27/2004 9:32:28 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		This is an excellent idea!! Something for the first patch and used as an option for the French to use. With the old paper EiA's system any optional rules were restricted by the paper chit counter mix but with computers there is no limitation. JUST DO IT!

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Capt. Cliff

(in reply to shanebosky)
Post #: 12
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/28/2004 1:18:39 AM   
megalomania2003

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting ideas but please remember that:

While the computer can keep track of a lot more than a player using pen and paper the system should still be kept fairly simple. Otherwise people would have to spend to much time checking the manual, which is not fun.

If the french get old and young guard what about the other countries. The old guard should be better than the other guard units and not only because it would be able to commit on the +2.

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 13
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/28/2004 4:46:23 AM   
yammahoper

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline 		Old and young guard do not make any sense. Guard are drefted from experienced units or go through the special rigors of guard training, simular to being a special forces into todays world if you will. There is no need for a young guard, and a nation can presume it has enough battle and elite men to fill the guard.

As far as using the computer to create new corps and the like...hmm, that could be a neat idea, as long as the new corps are divisions of existing corps. For countries like france, who have several 20 factor corps, this could result in truely increased flexibility and power to project force across the map. Since the army itself would not be made larger, it could work. I sure would like to test play such a system before making it cannon however. It could be neat to create supporting rule sets around such an idea.

yamma

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(in reply to megalomania2003)
Post #: 14
RE: French Guards and replacements - 10/28/2004 10:18:27 PM   
Camile Desmoulins


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Maybe the second Guard Corps be the same thing, but one can only know testing a lot. There are many things that they can seem a good idea and realistic, but sometimes the test demonstrates that they are not it. For example, the map of EiH believes that it is more realistic than that of EiA, but the consequences of losing Germany they are worse that in EiA, and I even believe of what was in fact, fiasco zone it´s easier with this map. It is also realistic the privateers, but I doubt that they contribute to the balance of the game. Realist it's to use Sweden like Major Power, but another thing is to be able to balance their consequences (by the other hand, I'm a passionate defender of Swedish as MPwr, but with a hard work of test).

If you have played to the scenario of 1792 -sure- you will know how France suffers to even subsist in spite of the mass levies, and the change that supposes the entrance of French Guard's Corps. Speaking about balances, Austria, Prussia and Russia can gather easily in 1805 up to 29 factors of guards. This coalition is already very difficult to break until for an experienced player, with half of the Guard Corps the thing is difficult for France. The opponents of Bonney are also good and play, it is not always a military walk.

On the other hand, the realism is necessary to apply it in all ways. The Russian Guard, for example, not everything was guards Ismailowsky, Semenowsky or Preobrazhensky. There was also Jaegger and in many moments even Combined Grenadiers, troops of different quality and that they can also be divided in two Corps (as the Austrians) by the same reasons. Guard's concept in Prussia is much more confused than in the game, and it is very debatable that the quality of the Austrian grenadiers, or Spaniards (or even the british) are comparable to the french, and every grenadiers has morale "5". But Avalon accepted to lose something of realism for the balance.

_____________________________

"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to denisonh)
Post #: 15
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