RE: American DDs & ASW

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> RE: American DDs & ASW

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RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/28/2004 2:51:27 AM

Gem35

Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

Whats gamey about 3x2CV TFs in the same hex?

well, nothing....

but it's gamey, imo, that my 400+ bombers split between 2 bases both supported by an Air HQ and plenty of supplies and aviation support, retreat to the imaginary underground airbase and hide when that jap TF shows up...

would be nice to force them to attack for once

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 31

RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/28/2004 2:56:41 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
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Well, histiorically, both the Allies and Japanese worried excessively about the capbilities of LBA.

AS a result, there are not many instances of LBA seriously damaging CVs.

But by the same token, CV Tfs did not hang around areas with enemy LBA unless serious efforts were undertaken to suppress and/or eliminate enemy air assets.

My b1tch is that CV TFs hang around enemy AFs for DAYS without any worries. Somewhat ahistorical.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Gem35)

Post #: 32

RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/28/2004 3:03:26 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

quote:

Whats gamey about 3x2CV TFs in the same hex?

well, nothing....

but it's gamey, imo, that my 400+ bombers split between 2 bases both supported by an Air HQ and plenty of supplies and aviation support, retreat to the imaginary underground airbase and hide when that jap TF shows up...

would be nice to force them to attack for once

Your point comes back to how the units are dealt with. Here we have individual pilots deciding whether or not conditions are favouravble to attack.

It should not be up to individual pilots or squadron commanders, it should be up to the respective HQs to decide. Military service is not democratic nor voluntary after you "volunteer for service." Players should be able to convey their wishes for target priority, effort/commitment level etc via the HQ.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Gem35)

Post #: 33

RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/28/2004 3:20:15 AM

Gem35

Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
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I don't mean to take this thread off on a tangent, and Ron, I tip my cap to you and the other playtesters on here.

BUT...

In my experiences so far in game, my LB's 10 times out of ten, go after the lone TK or AK in the vicinity of either that Jap CV TF or a surface fleet.

I can appreciate the worry of tremendous attrition taken by not attacking, but hell, this IS a war. You look back through the history of this war and if the allies didn't take any chances, we may not have done so well. I see it as, if you have the horses, you run em. You use any and all forces at your disposal to eliminate the enemy...right?

On the other hand, I can use my own killer CV TF as well to roam around. I just don't like it that a single jap torp plane can sink a battleship that is trying to bombard a targeted landing operation, and my air force appears to have a bit of a chicken mentality when the big guns show up.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and probably would die if I couldn't play it every day, but...you know...hehehe, I guess it's easier to second guess at times

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 34

RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/28/2004 5:33:31 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

I don't mean to take this thread off on a tangent, and Ron, I tip my cap to you and the other playtesters on here.

BUT...

In my experiences so far in game, my LB's 10 times out of ten, go after the lone TK or AK in the vicinity of either that Jap CV TF or a surface fleet.

I can appreciate the worry of tremendous attrition taken by not attacking, but hell, this IS a war. You look back through the history of this war and if the allies didn't take any chances, we may not have done so well. I see it as, if you have the horses, you run em. You use any and all forces at your disposal to eliminate the enemy...right?

On the other hand, I can use my own killer CV TF as well to roam around. I just don't like it that a single jap torp plane can sink a battleship that is trying to bombard a targeted landing operation, and my air force appears to have a bit of a chicken mentality when the big guns show up.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and probably would die if I couldn't play it every day, but...you know...hehehe, I guess it's easier to second guess at times

Hey, I'm agreeing with you by saying the problem lies with the way the air units are handled. Pilot morale, fatigue, whatever should not determine who goes and where. The senior air boss does. Not so in the game. The way it is structured, the pilots go through the checks, or the checks are based on pilot ratings. This porridge is too hot...this one is too cold...

Wrong way to approach this.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Gem35)

Post #: 35

RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/28/2004 5:44:43 AM

dereck

Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
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From my experience in the US Navy on the Midway I had to deal with a lot of the squadron stationed on the ship. There were basically two types of pilots: attack pilots and fighter pilots. Attack pilots flew the "attack" planes that would basically provide ground support or naval attack while the fighter pilots flew the fighter planes that fought other planes.

The distinction between the two could be summed up this way: If 5 attack pilots and 5 fighter pilots each came up against a flight of 10 enemy planes the attack pilots would say they were outnumbered 2 to 1 while the fighter pilots would say there's 2 for each of us.

But regardless, if they had a mission to accomplish they would do their damndest to complete that mission. They wouldn't be thinking about getting shot down because each pilot never considered that THEY themselves would be the one to get shot down ... it would always be someone else so they were basically fearless in that regard.

_____________________________

PO2 US Navy (1980-1986);
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 36

RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/28/2004 5:50:13 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
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On a similiar note,, in my 17 and 1/2 years in the Army, I never responed to a mission "Sir, I have low morale, I can't do that today".....

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

From my experience in the US Navy on the Midway I had to deal with a lot of the squadron stationed on the ship. There were basically two types of pilots: attack pilots and fighter pilots. Attack pilots flew the "attack" planes that would basically provide ground support or naval attack while the fighter pilots flew the fighter planes that fought other planes.

The distinction between the two could be summed up this way: If 5 attack pilots and 5 fighter pilots each came up against a flight of 10 enemy planes the attack pilots would say they were outnumbered 2 to 1 while the fighter pilots would say there's 2 for each of us.

But regardless, if they had a mission to accomplish they would do their damndest to complete that mission. They wouldn't be thinking about getting shot down because each pilot never considered that THEY themselves would be the one to get shot down ... it would always be someone else so they were basically fearless in that regard.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 37

RE: American DDs & ASW - 10/31/2004 5:30:56 PM

dereck

Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

Although the DDs are effective ASW air is not - note the huge number of Emily/PBY/you name it ac attack SS at hex xyz every turn - yet how often is the SS sunk or damaged ? Never.

That part of ASW warfare in this game may be more accurate than you may think. I don't have the statistics for the US Navy submarine losses but according to "The Pacific Campaign: The US-Japanese Naval War 1941-1945", page 271:

" The Japanese lost 129 boats out of 190 -- seventy to surface warships, eighteen to aircraft, nineteen to enemy submarines and twenty-two otherwise including collisions, explosions, accidents and unexplained causes."

So only about 14% of the Japanese submarine losses came from aircraft.

_____________________________

PO2 US Navy (1980-1986);
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)

(in reply to kayjay)

Post #: 38

RE: American DDs & ASW - 11/1/2004 12:57:26 AM

kayjay

Posts: 133
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: JS J4 Pentagon
Status: offline

14 % (1 out of 8) I can buy - but number appears to be 0 in teh game.

Kevin

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Kevin Kelley

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 39

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> RE: American DDs & ASW

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