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TV - 10/25/2004 5:35:58 AM

Moose

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Just watched an all day show on WWI on the History Channel. Piques ones interest in this game.

Says some pretty disgusting things about human nature that this meat grinder wasn't the War to End All Wars.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 3:33:07 AM

geozero

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We must have watched same show... recently I saw one called WWI in color! I also read Martin Gilbert's World War One book... a must have for the subject.

In many ways WW1 can be compared with today's global war on terrorism. What started out (in WW1) as a series of diplomatic alliances and an assasination of an unpopular personality turned out into a war that killed millions, introduced weapons of mass destruction (aircraft, poison gas, machin guns, submarines, etc), and never resolved any of the disputes. All that led to another war, and then the Cold War.

Today's actions both diplomatically and militarily can have massive effects a few years down the road. I hope that we as a nation and as a world don't tread down that spiralling path again.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 3:34:47 AM

geozero

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Forgot to mention Churchill has some really good books too on the period.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 3:46:22 AM

Hanal

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I missed this yesterday...was it original programming from the History Channel or were they showing the 1960's CBS WWI series which was nararrated by Robert Ryan?.....I have been waiting forever for someone to put this show on DVD, as it would be a great complement to the World at War DVD set......

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 3:59:43 AM

geozero

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I don't recall if it was a new program or not. The images looked very "real" in color. Looks like they went over the original reels and colored them in, I don't think there were color cameras back then.

The battle fields, the soldier's expressions, all took on a more realistic feel. You could see the sadness in their eyes.

These shows must be preserved on DVD for future generations for sure.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 4:13:25 AM

Moose

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I was also referring to WWI in color, and it blew me away. Compared to those kind of casualties, modern conflicts seem timid. Although, that doesn't take into consideration the impact of better first-aid, med-evac, body armor, etc. In other words, I think our casualties today would be much higher than they are if we didn't have these protective technologies.

Anyhow, I really dug the show, and was very glad they went into the effect WWI had on the future of the world. I was shocked when a coworker recently argued with me on the idea that WWI was the main cause of WWII. I was taught that from the earliest days in school and all I see and read reinforces it. Although, I'm not sure how strong the link was to the Pacific War.

My main take home from that is that the Marshall Plan is a better way to deal with a defeated enemy than the Treaty of Versailles.

< Message edited by Moose -- 10/26/2004 2:14:54 AM >

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 4:33:17 AM

geozero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moose

I was also referring to WWI in color, and it blew me away. Compared to those kind of casualties, modern conflicts seem timid. Although, that doesn't take into consideration the impact of better first-aid, med-evac, body armor, etc. In other words, I think our casualties today would be much higher than they are if we didn't have these protective technologies.

Anyhow, I really dug the show, and was very glad they went into the effect WWI had on the future of the world. I was shocked when a coworker recently argued with me on the idea that WWI was the main cause of WWII. I was taught that from the earliest days in school and all I see and read reinforces it. Although, I'm not sure how strong the link was to the Pacific War.

My main take home from that is that the Marshall Plan is a better way to deal with a defeated enemy than the Treaty of Versailles.

Agreed.

I think that tactics has improved considerably also, which may reflect the lesser losses in today's conflicts.

Imagine 100,000 dead in a single day of a single battle! Today we lament (and rightfully so) the loss of 2-3 soldiers. I don't think the current state of the world is ready for a massive war in the scale of the WW1 and WW2.

If there ever came down to a limited nuke or biological war I don't think the world population could handle it today.

Recently, I've completed the Churchill's Second World War volumns. Very good reading. There are parts where telegrams are being snet to commanders congratualting each other for victories. One that stands out was a short lived victory in the desert in 1942 against the Afrika Korps. I can't remember the town but it was near Tobruk, and the Allies had capturesthis town and "advanced' 3-5 kilometers at a cost of 10,000 British and Colonial troops. Churchill sent his warmest congratualtions on a successful achievement!

10,000 lives in a single day lost! For what? 3-5 kilometers? It was truly an insane war. When I read these things or see movies, I can't help but feel really proud of our past generations' courage.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 4:59:46 AM

Hanal

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Ok...if it was WWI in Color then I did not miss anything as I taped them when they first aired....thanks for the clarification.....

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 5:06:39 AM

geozero

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Good show though...

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 6:19:39 AM

Dirtdog20

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Really recomend Sir John Keegan for a one volume work on the first world war. Hugh Strachan has a massive multiple volume set out that isn't complete yet.

Yes the series was good. If you look closely in places, however, they have French and German soldiers in the wrong colored uniforms. Also some of the same footage appeared with the same folks in different colored uniforms.

Also just want to check to make sure it wasnt a typo on your part. On July 1, 1916 at the Somme the British Army suffered over 100,000 casualties. My sources say that the dead are from 24 to 26,000 and the missing account for another 7 to 10,000. Not wanting to nick pick but 100,000 dead in one day would have won the war for Germany.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 6:58:48 AM

geozero

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My source actually quotes 21,000 British officers and men killed, and 25,000 seriously wounded for July 1, 1916 Somme. I'm not sure what the German losses were, but likely very similar to that number, hence my 100,000 figure (though I incorrectly stated dead, would have been more correct to say "casualties" as a total number).

A very staggering number by today's standards. I can't imagine what the number was throughout that single day in the entire front.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 9:45:59 AM

Moose

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I heard somewhere that part of how these horrendous figures happened is that the generals didn't trust their soldiers to be intelligent enough to handle the fire & maneuver type tactics that would've been very helpful. Have any of you heard this also? Seems kind of strange, wouldn't it have been better to take the risk they wouldn't have understood than take 100,000 casualties in one day? You couldn't definitely see a combination of modern technology and 19th century tactics in the show. Very interesting to see that some of the nations were actually wearing 19th century looking uniforms.

Have any of you seen "Paths to Glory", the Stanley Kubrick film that was about WWI? It wasn't very detailed about the war, but was more of a study of corrupt leadership than the war specifically.

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RE: TV - 10/26/2004 11:46:46 PM

SirRodneyOfGout

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moose

I heard somewhere that part of how these horrendous figures happened is that the generals didn't trust their soldiers to be intelligent enough to handle the fire & maneuver type tactics that would've been very helpful. Have any of you heard this also? Seems kind of strange, wouldn't it have been better to take the risk they wouldn't have understood than take 100,000 casualties in one day?

Actually this is a misrepresentation. A large part of the British force used at the Somme was made up of newly trained volunteers. The decision was made to not use complex tactics, or a complex plan overall, in order to suit their abilities. The tragedy in the Somme battle is that there was extensive, detailled planning intended to reduce casualties. Unfortunately the plans did not work, and some of the simplistic tactics employed had unintended, and devastating, consequences.

Keep in mind that on a single day basis other wars, notably the American Civil War, produced the same horrific casualty figures. But whereas a battle in the 1860s lasted only a few days at most, the battles in the Great War lasted for weeks or even months, and stretched across much larger battlefields. The Somme battle did not end on July 1, or in July, or even in the summer of 1916. The final casualty toll was much higher than 100, 000.

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RE: TV - 10/27/2004 4:06:40 AM

Moose

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I really need to learn more about WWI, this is all so horribly fascinating. I'm beginning to understand the malaise that impacted the veterans of the war. We discussed this in one of my literature courses in college, how the war altered veterans' minds so drastically.

Makes one wonder which war in the history of man kind has been the worst for causing post traumatic stress disorder. I hear that Iraq and Afghanistan veterans are coming back 1 in 6 has PTSD. Of course, even the scientists studying this acknowledge that the figures look so bad now because it wouldn't have been identified immediately upon return from Vietnam or any earlier war, because of lack of knowledge of the neurosis.

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RE: TV - 10/27/2004 4:53:43 AM

geozero

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Good point Moose,

Actually I have a friend (an old timer, but a great friend none the less) who served in Korea, and was a POW for about 2+ years. As a result he developed medical conditions that rendered the rest of his life difficult. But he has great spirits, and not a nicer guy you'll meet.

One day he and I were talking, and the subject of war came up. He began to recount his ordeals as a POW to me, as tears streamed down his face. He had never opened up to anyone about this in 50 years! He told me of the inhumane cruelty the North Korean captures made them endure, the weeks of living in filthy water waist deep, with rats and snakes swimming around.

One night a fellow GI woke the others with a terrible screams, some of the rats had begun eating the soft rotting flesh on his back, and had actually burrowed into his back. He died a few days later.

My friend's stories are horrific. I don't think any war has anything good in it.

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RE: TV - 10/27/2004 5:09:40 AM

Moose

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That is a very horrifying story.

Most of my ex-military friends have stories more like how they narrowly missed Desert Storm or the current Iraq war, and how they're grateful for it. The one friend had been with an M109-A6 unit in Kuwait just months before the war started.

One of my dad's best friends came back from Vietnam with PTSD. He was in a Marine recon unit and apparently saw some nasty stuff. The most obvious effect of this is he can't stay married. He has flashbacks that lead to him hitting his wife. Apparently for a brief moment he absolutely convinced she's VC and by the time he snaps to, he's already hurt her. Sad to see 'cause he's a really great guy for the most part. I used to call him uncle even though he isn't actually related.

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RE: TV - 10/27/2004 5:19:17 AM

geozero

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I have a nephew in Iraq (2nd Armored), and another in Germany. They're about 19-21 years old.

I have a few Nam friends. They have very strange stories. It all depends where you were and how long you were "in country" and "in the bush".

I have a Marine friend who received 2 Purple Hearts during the Tet offensive (shrapnel and took a round in the leg). He has weird lumps (caused by exposure to Agent Orange). He likes to recount the one time when his Gunny and he came up on a VC who was in his teens. By buddy was so frightened by the VC jumping out of a hole aiming an AK-47 in his face that mis-fired, the VC turned and ran, my buddy emptied his M-16 on the VC, took another magazine, emtied that one too, then his side arm, a .45 semi auto, emtied that too, the Gunny was armed with only a .45, he emtied his clips too and they threw grenades! The VC got away unscathed!

That same Marine tells me that out of 14 months in the Nam he only "saw" his enemy 3-4 times. Usually the jungle was so dense that you did not "see" the enemy and had to shoot at the direction of the sound.

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RE: TV - 10/27/2004 5:38:51 AM

Moose

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Another guy I know was at Hue during Tet. His dad was in the Pacific in WWII as a BAR man. He had interesting stories.

About four years ago I was at Midway and one of the guys in our group was a Navy fighter pilot during WWII. The secretary of the Navy was there one day also and this guy sure had a great time talking to the secretaries staff.

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