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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> PH Strategy

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PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 7:44:04 PM

erstad

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From: Midwest USA
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OK, while we're all waiting for the patch, here's a question for you experienced Japanese players.

Historically, KB retired after the first strikes on PH. In Witp, there's really not much danger in hanging around and pummeling PH for another couple of days, until you run low on sorties.

I've played with this a bit versus the AI, and you can definitely rack up a fair number of VPs, as well as trash out a number of additional ships, but at a definite cost in planes. For example, at the end of a PH trashing I might have 2000 VPs for allied ships, but have lost ~140 Kates/Vals, plus a much smaller number of Zeros; these kinds of losses in pilots are pretty signficant.

So... Is that a good trade? Do you get enough in the VPs and the Allied ship losses to make it worthwhile, or do you opt to preserve KB airpower? Or is there some obvious Allied counter to this I'm missing?

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RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 7:49:50 PM

Xargun

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From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

OK, while we're all waiting for the patch, here's a question for you experienced Japanese players.

Historically, KB retired after the first strikes on PH. In Witp, there's really not much danger in hanging around and pummeling PH for another couple of days, until you run low on sorties.

I've played with this a bit versus the AI, and you can definitely rack up a fair number of VPs, as well as trash out a number of additional ships, but at a definite cost in planes. For example, at the end of a PH trashing I might have 2000 VPs for allied ships, but have lost ~140 Kates/Vals, plus a much smaller number of Zeros; these kinds of losses in pilots are pretty signficant.

So... Is that a good trade? Do you get enough in the VPs and the Allied ship losses to make it worthwhile, or do you opt to preserve KB airpower? Or is there some obvious Allied counter to this I'm missing?

The decision to stay and bomb PH back into the stone ages is not a light decision.. You can sink many ships and hammer PH facilities... BUT at a cost of your highly experienced air crews... The problem is you could do PH twice and stay the same amount of days and have competely different results... In 2 of my PBEM games I stayed at PH for 4 days bombing the BBs and repair yards... In one game I sunk 2 BBs and crippled the rest... In the other I didn't sink anything at all except a stupid PT boat that caught an 800 kg bomb (I swear I saw it swerve to catch it...).. The losses of my air crews were about equal so in the first one it wasn't a bad trade... In the second I got hosed... So its random...

Personally I'd like to stay one day and get historic results.... Would be nice...

The only threat I see is if the allies bring back their CVs and group them and hit you while your planes are all attacking PH.. In this way, the allies could seriously hurt your CVs without any retribution at all....

Xargun

(in reply to erstad)

Post #: 2

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 8:43:51 PM

Synjin

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We could get those historical results in just one day if they ever actually flew a 2nd wave like they did historically. In all the 1st turns I've run, I've never once seen a 2nd wave from the KB in the PM phase.

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RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 8:44:58 PM

IKerensky

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Well another option is to have one group to continue bobmarding while the other ( and larger ) try to get to the Allied CV smashing wake invasion forces....

Also I toy with the idea to make a refuel near PH then put part of my CVs between PH and West coast and try to get at thoses nices transport fleet and crippled vessels that will start to cross as soon as I leave PH view....

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 4

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 8:45:17 PM

String

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From: Estonia
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Instead of pummeling the ports retreat the KB north and then return in a few turns when the Lex and/or the Enterprise TF's are bound to arrive.. catch them and sink them..

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 5

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 8:53:32 PM

anarchyintheuk

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I may be mistaken but historically KB didn't launch all of their attack planes at PH in a full strike, land, re-arm and hit PH again. The waves were approximately 1/2 and 1/2 of the attack planes available plus whatever fighters flew escort.

(in reply to Synjin)

Post #: 6

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 8:59:36 PM

Mark VII

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From: Brentwood,TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Personally I'd like to stay one day and get historic results.... Would be nice...

The only threat I see is if the allies bring back their CVs and group them and hit you while your planes are all attacking PH.. In this way, the allies could seriously hurt your CVs without any retribution at all....

Xargun

Xargun; if starting with scenerio #16 (which gives historical results), would you return to PH to go after the remaining ships? Half the BB's cannot get away provided you leave 1/3 to 1/2 of your squadrons on Naval strike. Should your PBEM opponent leave some CA's and DD's around, I think they would be worthy to deny the USN of their use. Of course the question is IJN a/c losses during this operation. How many lossses are acceptable to at least ruin three BB's(at least 90+ system) and some posssible support ships?

I think I would welcome attempted intervention by Enterprise and Lexington as I would leave half my airgroup on Naval Strike.

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 7

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 9:16:01 PM

moses

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You also need to consider the opportunity cost. If you hit PH one day you can shift to other sectors where KB can make a big difference without stopping to recoup losses. If you hang around PH a few days extra you'll have to spend a couple more days rebuilding your air groups which gives the allies in the west more time to try and set up a defence.

Not a decisive factor but just one more thing to consider.

< Message edited by moses -- 10/29/2004 1:16:31 PM >

(in reply to Mark VII)

Post #: 8

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 9:19:00 PM

Xargun

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From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark VII

Xargun; if starting with scenerio #16 (which gives historical results), would you return to PH to go after the remaining ships? Half the BB's cannot get away provided you leave 1/3 to 1/2 of your squadrons on Naval strike. Should your PBEM opponent leave some CA's and DD's around, I think they would be worthy to deny the USN of their use. Of course the question is IJN a/c losses during this operation. How many lossses are acceptable to at least ruin three BB's(at least 90+ system) and some posssible support ships?

I think I would welcome attempted intervention by Enterprise and Lexington as I would leave half my airgroup on Naval Strike.

As the game stands right now no I would not return to PH.. BBs are hard enough to sink - must use torps most other bombs bounce off their armor... The BBs that survived the first day at PH are beat up pretty good and will need some serious yard time before they will see any action, so if we could prioritize targets I would definately return and go after Aux ships - mostly ARs and ADs. Also go after cruisers and DDs... Val's 250kg bombs work nice on most cruisers and all DDs and there are a lot of ASW DDs at PH which could easily be sunk... Plus all the DDs you sink now are DDs unable to get the super ASW or AA upgrades later.. Personally I'd rather sink half a dozen DDs than a BB at PH, but you don't get a choice...

But right now if you sent 200 bombers in at PH, 99% would attack the BBs there and maybe sink them - if you got lucky enough to use torps on the Kates.. Otherwise you might beat them into 99 sys and 99 fire, but they will not sink... Sinking 2+ BBs are PH is good enough for me, especially knowing the rest are beat up fairly bad...

NOW, I would send 2-3 CVs (with most of the escorts) back behind PH and the west coast and let them sit and wait the inevitable TFs of cripples heading to the west coast and the influx of supplies / fuel / troops from the west coast to PH and beyond.. That is where the juicy targets lie...

As for the allies bringing back their CVs to PH.... why ? The are much safer at sea or ANYWHERE else except PH.. Only reason to bring them back is to attempt to catch the KB with her pants down (launching strikes at PH with nothing on Naval attack).

Xargun

< Message edited by Xargun -- 10/29/2004 7:19:29 PM >

(in reply to Mark VII)

Post #: 9

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 10:13:51 PM

WiTP_Dude

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A second day might be a good idea, no more after that though. The PH air units will begin to recover plus your own air units will be in a weakened state.

(in reply to erstad)

Post #: 10

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 10:24:07 PM

Mr.Frag

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Funny reading this thread.

The stay or go choice at PH is based on one simple little fact that is not mentioned here.

*** WEATHER ****

It is the ONLY thing that really matters. You can stay as long as you have the weather on your side. One round of bad weather and things recover from the shock and your next attack will get slaughtered.

Also keep in mind, killing the aircraft and engineers at PH is *just* as important as sinking those BB's. PH doesn't repair with disabled engineers. Aircraft do not repair with service damage to the airfield.

This makes a large difference to your subs ... leave all those PBY's in good shape and you can kiss goodbye a lot of your subs.

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 10/29/2004 3:24:17 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 10:44:33 PM

WiTP_Dude

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Funny reading this thread.

The stay or go choice at PH is based on one simple little fact that is not mentioned here.

*** WEATHER ****

It is the ONLY thing that really matters. You can stay as long as you have the weather on your side. One round of bad weather and things recover from the shock and your next attack will get slaughtered.

No, you probably don't want to stay for several days even if the weather is good. Flak will continue to destroy and damage your aircraft and the PH airfields will begin to recover. You have to put more and more of your aircraft on "airfield attacks" to keep them down. Then what is the point of staying if you can't do enough "port attacks"?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

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RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 10:54:45 PM

Central Blue

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while dealing with Lawrence of Arabia thread I tried a hot seat of this. I kept suprressing the airfields very easily, and sank nearly everything but the BB's. THere was less allied air resistance every day and the flak didn't seem that bad. It was successful enough for me that I would try it if I was IJN in PBEM. Maybe I got good weather rolls. Maybe I should run this again.

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(in reply to WiTP_Dude)

Post #: 13

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 10:59:02 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

the PH airfields will begin to recover

It doesn't take very much to keep it down after the first turn strikes. Try it, you'll find that after day 1, only 2 group of Vals will do a nice job stopping it from bouncing back.

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)

Post #: 14

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 11:35:45 PM

doktorblood

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I don't think that it's worth the cost to stage a second strike on PH. I think you're better off to take a guess where the American carriers are and try to catch one or both of them at sea.

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Post #: 15

RE: PH Strategy - 10/29/2004 11:38:34 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

the PH airfields will begin to recover

It doesn't take very much to keep it down after the first turn strikes. Try it, you'll find that after day 1, only 2 group of Vals will do a nice job stopping it from bouncing back.

Also after the initial attack change at least 2 groups of Vals over to City attack and bomb the repair yards... This will earn you some easy victory points BUT more importantly, it will slow down any repairs on ships in the port (might make the diff between a ship sinking or not) AND cost the allies 1000 supply per point repaired... Although the supply is a minor inconvience to the allies, at the beginning of the game it will force the allies to send a supply TF to PH instead of sending it to OZ (or elsewhere)... Besides after bombing the airfield, the Vals are next to useless in attacking the ships in port due to most of them will attack BBs and their little 250 kg bombs won't scratch the paint... So use 2 to suppress the airfield, 2 to bomb repair yards and 2 to Naval Attack / Rest... So if anything tries to jump the KB or escape PH you have some Vals to hit it.. and if not, they will rest.

Xargun

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 16

RE: PH Strategy - 10/30/2004 4:44:32 AM

Sharkosaurus rex

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In my PBEM

When I have been the Allies I have kept everything in PH even when the KB stuck around for 4-5 days. You can't leave, especially the damaged ships because you will be spotted a 4-5 hexes out of town and mowed down. Virtually all the warships in PH have 1000 operation points used up (for 6 days) so you can only move one hex on the first movement phase of the turn. Also there is half the Jap sub force lurking around PH. You just have to take your lumps for a few days and see what is repairable. It might be two weeks before I send any damaged ships out of PH. Give the ASW guys a chance to cleanse the water. Also the damaged warships leaving PH don't have the sail directly east, they might go north (or south) 5-6 hexes and then swing towards the west coast.

I send the Enterprise and Lexington full speed to Noumea. They can met up with warships and transports carrying fuel from New Zealand to refuel them there. By now you might know a bit more about Jap plans. Rabaul is a huge magnet for the Japs and they might not expect your CV so far away from PH. There are many opportunities to find targets. Or their presence might give you the confidence to send some reinforcements to Rabaul or somewhere around PM and the Solomons. I don't wait around Wake because the Japs might not invade it so early in PBEM and you don't want to waste time hanging around.

Sharkosaurus rex

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Post #: 17

RE: PH Strategy - 10/30/2004 6:40:04 AM

denisonh

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The best Allied course of action with respect to ships at PH initially is get every DD/CL/CA that is sea worthy out of PH ASAP. If he is hanging around PH, let him keep pounding on BBs, but save your other ships.

Those are you most valuable ships initially, as you really won't need/use you BBs too much early on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

In my PBEM

When I have been the Allies I have kept everything in PH even when the KB stuck around for 4-5 days. You can't leave, especially the damaged ships because you will be spotted a 4-5 hexes out of town and mowed down. Virtually all the warships in PH have 1000 operation points used up (for 6 days) so you can only move one hex on the first movement phase of the turn. Also there is half the Jap sub force lurking around PH. You just have to take your lumps for a few days and see what is repairable. It might be two weeks before I send any damaged ships out of PH. Give the ASW guys a chance to cleanse the water. Also the damaged warships leaving PH don't have the sail directly east, they might go north (or south) 5-6 hexes and then swing towards the west coast.

I send the Enterprise and Lexington full speed to Noumea. They can met up with warships and transports carrying fuel from New Zealand to refuel them there. By now you might know a bit more about Jap plans. Rabaul is a huge magnet for the Japs and they might not expect your CV so far away from PH. There are many opportunities to find targets. Or their presence might give you the confidence to send some reinforcements to Rabaul or somewhere around PM and the Solomons. I don't wait around Wake because the Japs might not invade it so early in PBEM and you don't want to waste time hanging around.

Sharkosaurus rex

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RE: PH Strategy - 10/30/2004 7:56:18 AM

WiTP_Dude

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

the PH airfields will begin to recover

It doesn't take very much to keep it down after the first turn strikes. Try it, you'll find that after day 1, only 2 group of Vals will do a nice job stopping it from bouncing back.

Thanks, I will test this out sometime.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 19

RE: PH Strategy - 10/30/2004 1:07:55 PM

IKerensky

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Well it seems I am the only one to notice this but...

PH isn't the only avaliable airbase in the Hawaian Islands....

There is 2 bases south that can fly 15 or 16 planes each.

And before sending the CL/DD out pehaps have them fast transport some air support to the others ones before retreating to SF as Home base...

This way you can start transfering air group in your second day making both harder for KB to close Hawaian Islands AND risquier for their safety. At very least it will be back to costly in pilots..

Just my 2 cts, need some more testing but could work...

Of course it only work if PH airfield can transfer at day 2....

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)

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RE: PH Strategy - 10/30/2004 1:29:55 PM

Sharkosaurus rex

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As you said, 90% of the bombs are going to land on the BB anyway. And it is hard to be sunk in the size 10 port. As soon as you leave PH the ships are much more vulnerable to sinkng. And the Jap TF can move on the east side of PH. And you are bound to be sighted by the recons.

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RE: PH Strategy - 10/31/2004 12:59:32 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Synjin

We could get those historical results in just one day if they ever actually flew a 2nd wave like they did historically. In all the 1st turns I've run, I've never once seen a 2nd wave from the KB in the PM phase.

I think if you count up the number of A/C involved in the PH strike you'll find that the
two strikes are represented..., they are just shown as one.

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Post #: 22

RE: PH Strategy - 10/31/2004 1:05:48 AM

esteban

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One thing that I have not heard anyone say is that the 250 KG AP bombs that are dropped by Vals will never penetrate U.S. BB armor, either deck armor or belt armor. In a size 10 port, the little bit of fire damage/weapon mount damage that these bombs do is unimportant, and won't finish a BB. Also, with the BBs around, a good 75% or so of your dive bombers will go after the BBs, even if they cannot do more than take out a few AA and secondary mounts.

So, I would strongly suggest that you set your Vals to airfield attack on day one, and just go with Kates versus the port. A second option, if you are in a game that allows it, you can offload some of your Vals off of your carriers, and replace them with carrier-capable Kates from Japan for a larger punch at Battleship Row. 800 KG bombs will penetrate deck armor (not belt armor though) and of course torpedos really mess BBs up if your Kates are nice enough to use them.

(in reply to Sharkosaurus rex)

Post #: 23