How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall?

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How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall?

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How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall? - 11/13/2004 11:18:26 AM

Hirohito

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Joined: 9/10/2004
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Hi All,
Lots of people here keep screaming that if PI, DEI, and Malaya aren't taken right away then you might as well just surrender.

If you look at the Japanese campaign, it seems to me like it was sloppy. Too many ships, planes, and soldiers sitting around too often. It seems to me that if you planned to have every IJN ship, every plane, and every soldier engaged with the enemy as often as possible it would be possible to speed up the conquest of the areas covered in the original campaign.

Several things about the original campaign are puzzling. Why did the phillipines hold out for so long? Why did the japanese take so long taking southern borneo? Why did they wait so long to hit Celebes? Why did they wait so long to hit DEI? Why didn't they move IJN into the indian ocean after the fall of malaya and take burma by sea instead of slogging through the jungle, and why didn't they take the islands in the indian ocean including Ceylon, and why didn't they launch a campaign aimed at the coastal cities in India?

If you plan things down to every plane, every ship, every soldier, every supply transport for months in advance, and ensure that all units are engaging the enemy at all times unless they are doing R&R to recover from combat, is it possible to speed up the timetable for the fall of PI, DEI, malaysia, singapore, and burma? And, then turn your sights to bigger game like India or Australia?

Hirohito

Post #: 1

RE: How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall? - 11/13/2004 11:33:03 AM

kaiser73

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hirohito

Hi All,
Lots of people here keep screaming that if PI, DEI, and Malaya aren't taken right away then you might as well just surrender.

If you look at the Japanese campaign, it seems to me like it was sloppy. Too many ships, planes, and soldiers sitting around too often. It seems to me that if you planned to have every IJN ship, every plane, and every soldier engaged with the enemy as often as possible it would be possible to speed up the conquest of the areas covered in the original campaign.

Several things about the original campaign are puzzling. Why did the phillipines hold out for so long? Why did the japanese take so long taking southern borneo? Why did they wait so long to hit Celebes? Why did they wait so long to hit DEI? Why didn't they move IJN into the indian ocean after the fall of malaya and take burma by sea instead of slogging through the jungle, and why didn't they take the islands in the indian ocean including Ceylon, and why didn't they launch a campaign aimed at the coastal cities in India?

If you plan things down to every plane, every ship, every soldier, every supply transport for months in advance, and ensure that all units are engaging the enemy at all times unless they are doing R&R to recover from combat, is it possible to speed up the timetable for the fall of PI, DEI, malaysia, singapore, and burma? And, then turn your sights to bigger game like India or Australia?

Hirohito

If you use everything you have, and plan carefully to use any unit after they achieve their first goal instead of letting them sitting for a while, i think you can either:
1) Conquer all SRA (malaya, Java, Phi, Borneo, Southern Burma, Timor) by end of February (but no advance on guinea/pacific) or
2) Conquer all SRA (malaya, Java, Borneo, Southern Burma, Timor) except part of philippins (clarck and Manila) but with addition of all south pac islands, all guinea, solomons, down to noumea. by end of february.

What you will do after is to be seen though.

(in reply to Hirohito)

Post #: 2

RE: How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall? - 11/13/2004 11:38:43 AM

WiTP_Dude

Posts: 1434
Joined: 7/3/2004
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The WiTP system allows these places to fall faster than actually happened historically. Whether this is because the Japanese were slow or is due to a flaw in the WiTP system is still up for debate. You are right, there are a lot of ships and units lying around at the start of the game. In a traditional game, Singapore, PI, Burma, and the DEI should all be taken faster than actually happened. Port Moresby, Noumea, and Midway can all be taken quite easily if you want them too.

(in reply to Hirohito)

Post #: 3

RE: How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall? - 11/13/2004 11:41:52 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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Shipping was a MAJOR limitation. Just moving what they did prior to PH tasked their sealift capability to the max and they had yet to lose a ship. And reality was a limitation. They did not have the benefit of the first day SUPLIZE RULE.

In the game, Singapore can hold out almost historically despite the generous move rates the game allows but the PI are a bust. For some reason Clark Field is stronger defensively than Bataan and Corregidor. Becaise MacArthur ignored the obvious landing area of Lingayan Gulf, the northern units can be cut off and reduces the time the Allied player had to fortify his defensive positions. Effective resistance by Allies (allowing redeployment of much of Japan's troops in Luzon) can cease by mid January.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 11/13/2004 4:48:32 AM >

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)

Post #: 4

RE: How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall? - 11/13/2004 11:50:17 AM

2ndACR

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From: Irving,Tx
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You can take the entire SRA by early April against a human, but it is not easy. You can not get side tracked, huh Ron? If you do get side tracked, prepare for some problems.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 5

RE: How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall? - 11/13/2004 4:16:54 PM

Hirohito

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Joined: 9/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

You can take the entire SRA by early April against a human, but it is not easy. You can not get side tracked, huh Ron? If you do get side tracked, prepare for some problems.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 6

After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 4:24:20 PM

Hirohito

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Some said by end of February, others said by April. I'll be optimistic, and say by the end of February.

NOW hit Russia. Their position didn't improve any in the interim. You had all this time to move the Kwantang army into position. This movement should have been invisible to the allies. Use PP to free up the armor and the air units in the Home islands and move them to Manchuko. Preposition some amphibious units in the northern most japanese islands for the attack on Okha (spelling?) and the isolated base near the bering straight (can't remember the name of it).

If you've been fighting very aggressively in China in the meantime and you reinforce China from units that are done in the SRA campaign, and use them for garrison duty, freeing up the troops that were doing garrison duty, the absence of a few divisions for a few months shouldn't matter.

After Russia falls transfrer the Kwantang army and the SRA forces that were sent to Russia to China and finish the chinese off.

Now what is the objection?

Hirohito

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 7

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 4:29:33 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hirohito

Some said by end of February, others said by April. I'll be optimistic, and say by the end of February.

NOW hit Russia. Their position didn't improve any in the interim. You had all this time to move the Kwantang army into position. This movement should have been invisible to the allies. Use PP to free up the armor and the air units in the Home islands and move them to Manchuko. Preposition some amphibious units in the northern most japanese islands for the attack on Okha (spelling?) and the isolated base near the bering straight (can't remember the name of it).

If you've been fighting very aggressively in China in the meantime and you reinforce China from units that are done in the SRA campaign, and use them for garrison duty, freeing up the troops that were doing garrison duty, the absence of a few divisions for a few months shouldn't matter.

After Russia falls transfrer the Kwantang army and the SRA forces that were sent to Russia to China and finish the chinese off.

Now what is the objection?

Hirohito

I'd like to see you take the SRA in three months! End of April early May vs a human is realistic, and prepare to pay a steep price.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Hirohito)

Post #: 8

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 4:32:26 PM

ladner

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From: Virginia USA
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What is the objection? I would find out if there are serious penalties for attacking in Siberia during winter when there are blizzard conditions. Make sure you don't end up experiencing what the Germans and Napoleon experienced before Moscow, if there is some sort of massive attrition due to poor weather conditions.

(in reply to Hirohito)

Post #: 9

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 5:16:59 PM

2ndACR

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Why are you even worrying about those 2 bases? You have a brigade that can march to take Okha over land. The isolated base can be taken by almost any larger SNLF carried by 3 1500 size AP's.

Going after Russia after the fall of the SRA makes a little more sense. But to take the SRA fast, you have to take some big risks. April if you play it safe, Febuary if you do not worry about the losses you will take by playing fast and loose. It will take a minimum of 4 divisions to take Java and another 4 divisions to keep Burma bottled up. I use 4 divisions for Java, because I can not see a human opponent not running in some Aussie brigades.

But the Russian's will be stronger and heavier dug in by waiting. They will have the same deployments and numbers of units, but they will be full strength and forted up to size 9 by the time you attack. Even hitting them in January 42, they can butcher your units. As the AAR shows.

Figuring out what strategy you will use is fairly easy. If you do not advance in China before January 42, odds are you are going for Russia. Same if you have not invaded Hawaii in late Dec 41. You could be doing a standard strategy or Russia first.

(in reply to ladner)

Post #: 10

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 6:50:27 PM

Honda

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I would also have to object to offensive operations against USSR in the winter. When you have Gary Grisby, blizzard and Russians in the same sentence it doesn't spell good things for the opposition. So, a Spring attack would be much more suitable in my mind.
Benefits of such action:
1.You get to unleash most troops on SRA
2.You get to have more Zeros by that time since it's obvious the Jap can't achieve air superiority without them
3.No more blizzard every turn
4.You have enough time to make extensive preperations (and use every trick in the book to conceal ANY movement -> I'd even advise against expanding AFs)
5.Use PPs to relase some extra Home Defense Divs
6.Unlike in the begining, have a more purposefull role for Home Islands air force
7.The Allied player might be lulled into a false sence of security regarding the USSR.
8.By that time the Allies are in a much better position to hurt you so if you dedicate yourself to one theatre of war the counterattack is immenent and bound to succed (this is good for purposes of having a chance to fight USN early on thus incresing your chance of inflicting heavy casulties)

Possible down sides:
1.Planing too far ahead - you never know what can happen till then
2.You're playing a very dedicated player who leaves nothing to chance or your surprise fails - anyway, you're busted
3.By the time the Allies are in a much better position to hurt you so if you dedicate yourself to one theatre of war the counterattack is immenent and bound to succed (that's bad in case your counter-counterattack is a disaster leading to the early surrender of Japan)

Sorry for the hijack. I just now noticed the thread isn't about Russia. Can you blame me?

< Message edited by Honda -- 11/13/2004 5:52:20 PM >

(in reply to ladner)

Post #: 11

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 7:23:12 PM

2ndACR

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From: Irving,Tx
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The thread has to do with Hirohito's Russia first strategy. So no foul.

(in reply to Honda)

Post #: 12

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 7:27:45 PM

Hirohito

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

The thread has to do with Hirohito's Russia first strategy. So no foul.

the basic idea of this thread is, "okay so you focus on SRA first, and knock them out in feb/march", what next? I would go to Russia. What other options are viable? So, the discussion is right on target.

Hirohito

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 13

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 7:51:14 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
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That is why I told him there was no foul on hijacking the thread. He was on target. Me? it depends on what the Allied player has done in the mean time. If he has been passive, then I might consider it. If he is being aggressive, then I might go somewhere else.

(in reply to Hirohito)

Post #: 14

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 8:50:35 PM

kaiser73

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hirohito

Some said by end of February, others said by April. I'll be optimistic, and say by the end of February.

NOW hit Russia. Their position didn't improve any in the interim. You had all this time to move the Kwantang army into position. This movement should have been invisible to the allies. Use PP to free up the armor and the air units in the Home islands and move them to Manchuko. Preposition some amphibious units in the northern most japanese islands for the attack on Okha (spelling?) and the isolated base near the bering straight (can't remember the name of it).

If you've been fighting very aggressively in China in the meantime and you reinforce China from units that are done in the SRA campaign, and use them for garrison duty, freeing up the troops that were doing garrison duty, the absence of a few divisions for a few months shouldn't matter.

After Russia falls transfrer the Kwantang army and the SRA forces that were sent to Russia to China and finish the chinese off.

Now what is the objection?

Hirohito

I'd like to see you take the SRA in three months! End of April early May vs a human is realistic, and prepare to pay a steep price.

As i posted before, you can take all SRA and encircling the allies to Clark/manila/bataan by end of February, if you don't plan moves in south pac and guinea southern of rabaul.

Obviously you will pay a price in AP lost, that's for sure. but it can be done.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 15

RE: After SRA falls early - 11/13/2004 10:07:33 PM

pad152

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You really got to becareful in places like Singapore and Bataan, they can tie up a large number of Japanese troops for a long time, In my current game 2/1/42 my troop just moved into Singapore only to find 120,000 allied troops, and 130,000 in Bataan.

(in reply to kaiser73)

Post #: 16

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> How quickly can PI, DEI, Malaya fall?

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