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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> Japanese aircraft production...what is best?

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Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/13/2004 7:26:00 PM

Hirohito

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Joined: 9/10/2004
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It seems to me that you have two choices when deciding how to manage japanese aircraft production.

First, I think there are some basic principles to follow regardless of what else you do. 1. Stop building seaplanes, except for a few that are needed on capital ships, cs, and av. And don't build more than one type, settle on the "best" seaplane for how you play. 2. Don't build a dizzying array of aircraft types, settle on the "best" model for each category.

Now the real decision comes down to, do you build planes that you know are going to be obsolete by the end of '42, or do you pick the most advanced R&D aircraft for each category and build only those. Knowing that you won't be getting any of these planes for a long time, but when they do come,you'll have some chance of actually getting them into the air.

The real question here, then, is when do the different R&D types appear if you convert all aircraft factories to building only these and you expand these factories as much as you can. I am assuming that you are managing your resources optimally otherwise, that you are expanding HI appropriately, moving oil and resources to where they are needed, etc. And you turn off everything that doesn't add real value. Up to you to decide what that is. But, assuming that you are managing resources correctly, what is the probable result of the two strategies? 1) Building planes I can get now, but only building the best of each category and cutting back on non-combat planes and seaplanes, or, 2) Building R & D planes that won't arrive till later but when they do arrive they are much better planes?

Has anyone run any numbers on what your actual aircraft production would be in say Jan '43 if you expand all aircraft production as much as possible without sacrificing optimum resource management? Assume that you cut seaplanes back to minimal numbers, eliminate recon planes, switch transports to the highest payload plane avaialable, and build only one type of each of the categories of fighter, night fighter, level bomber, fighter bomber, dive bomber, and torpedo bomber. What is the maximum aircraft production you could achieve if you bring R&D to a minimum and focus on planes you can get right now?

What is the maximum aircraft production you can achieve if you focus solely on advanced R&D planes and when does each type appear?

Another question is, just how good is that advanced figther, I forget the name of it, it is an R&D fighter, has a very fast top speed, good maneuverability, good rate of climb, but very small range. Seems like this fighter could hold its own against most allied planes. Anyone have any data on this fighter? When does it appear if you really ramp up R&D on it by converting as many aircraft production facilities as you can to building it and expanding them all as much as you can?

Also, that bomber that carries a jet kamikaze with it, is it as deadly as one would assume, and when can it first appear if you make producing it a top priority?

Hirohito

Post #: 1

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/13/2004 7:47:45 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
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Does not do you any good for a stock scenario 15. Fixed upgrade paths so most of your IJA air force will be stuck with Oscar II's.

(in reply to Hirohito)

Post #: 2

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/13/2004 10:19:53 PM

seydlitz_slith

Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
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I put a lot of thought into this when I started my latest PBEM. Here are my conclusions:
You need maximum productivity on certain critical types early in the war. With the shooting starts, Japan only has the first year to gain her ground. If you don't have enough of the key types to sustain your ops during that period, then you will pay a terrible price.

What are the key types?
1. A6M2 Zero
2. G4M1 Betty
3. B5N Kate
4. D3A Val
5. H6K4 Mavis

I DO NOT expand more than one or two aircraft factories at start. Instead, I concentrate production in current factories. As I go through and make the needed adjustments that everyone makes, I ensure that I increase production on all of the above significantly. You need to have enough Vals and Kates to replenish the KB on demand, as these assets suffer a lot of casualties from flak when used.

The Mavis is a key (as the Emily will later be) to long range recon.

The Betty and the Zero are really the keys to your first year. Especially the Zero.
For those who have not read the manual, the Zero has a special rule:

17.4 Early War Zero Advantage
During the timeframe December 1941 - April 1942, the Japanese aircraft types A6M2 Zero and A6M3 Zero are given an advantage in air to air combat by having a bonus added to their maneuverability as follows:
December 1941 +5
January 1942 +4
February 1942 +3
March 1942 +2
April 1942 +1

This means that I need as many zeros as possible right at the start, so I can take advantage of this rule, instead of watching Claudes on CAP because they lack the range and firepower.

I also decided that researching the Oscar is a waste of time. Sure, Nates suck, but the Oscar isn't the great answer to the problem. It just doesn't have the firepower to win fights.

By redirecting my research efforts, I put just about all of my research efforts into getting the A6M5 Zero early. Other than that, I only do research on a couple of other minor types, the Judy being one of them. A good number of my research factories are converted to produce Zeros or Betty's on day one.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 3

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/14/2004 12:26:41 AM

rogueusmc

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1) Expanding all of your factories from the start will put you in a hurt locker on resources real quick.

2) I see everyone playing as if they knew the exact capabilities of, say, the A6M5 in '41. They, like any sensible folks would do, produced as much of what they KNEW to work well as much as possible. Placing all bets on a fighter, that you HOPE will work well in TWO YEARS, is VERY unrealistic.

< Message edited by rogueusmc -- 11/13/2004 4:27:31 PM >

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(in reply to seydlitz_slith)

Post #: 4

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/14/2004 3:44:35 AM

Honda

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From: Karlovac, Croatia
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Discussed so many times. Some excelent threads on the topic exist and almost everyone (including me) has concluded - rd doesn't pay off. THE most imprtant plane for the Jap in the begining is OscarII and how fast it can reach the front lines. Do not mock that plane. It sucks but not as nearly as Nate. Hayabusa (I thik) rules! But the problem is this. All tricks; samall ,big, medium factories - all combined - rd doesnt get even close to what you expected to achieve. I'm certain the formula 100 points per plane type=1 month off the expectancy date doesn't work. Seems you need 200-300 points to cut one month. But that's my experiance. And guess what. I still cling to OscarII research - hardcore. 200+! I have a feeling even a month works miracles with that plane. I mean, it is the Nate it's replacing...

(in reply to Hirohito)

Post #: 5

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/14/2004 4:14:39 AM

ragtopcars_slith

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Joined: 8/2/2004
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I would agree with Honda and Rogue... there is no way you could know 2-3 years down the line what the best plane would be... so playing the Japanese, I only allow myself to seriously expand factories for plane that are currently available, or are listed as the immediate upgrade for an air unit.
That would just be real life

Now as for production... get the Oscar going because there are a ton of Nate squadrons that can be converted.
As the Empire, you realize quickly there just isn't enough supplies and engineers to go around, so I am focusing on Zeros and oscars... The only plane I'm not production is the Ida-36 and Nates... got plenty in the stock pile!

derek

(in reply to Honda)

Post #: 6

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/14/2004 9:16:33 AM

esteban

Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline

Here are some quick and dirty observations that I have had:

1. Stop all Nate production. You have 710 of these in the pool at the start, which is probably enough to last you until the Oscar 2 arrives. I keep one of the two Nate factories (Gumma and Harbin) around, thought with production halted, in case you need more in late 42. Besides, that extra factory helps roll out more Oscar 2s more quickly.

2. Expand or convert some factories to increase your early production of Vals and Kates. You will need more of these than you produce, at least early on.

3. Don't hesitate to stop production of aircraft models for which you have large replacement pools. Every aircraft (that you do not need) that you avoid producing is pretty much an aircraft that you can "bank" for later production. Especially considering the ability to bank aircraft engines in this game.

4. Don't commit air units to battle when they have poorly trained (below 50 exp) pilots. They almost never hit anything, and the increased operations and combat losses are a waste of good aircraft.

(in reply to ragtopcars_slith)

Post #: 7

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/14/2004 10:07:47 AM

pauk

Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
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somewhere in the forum is (unofficial) manual for r&d

"Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production", by Oznoyng.

....

also, very valuable is spreadsheet "WiTP aircraft production" by guke, also somewhere in forum.

i belive that you can find these things also in Spooky's site.

(in reply to esteban)

Post #: 8

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/15/2004 12:13:01 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
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I must admitt to being somewhat surprised that a tactical and strategic genius such as Hirohito is even asking such questions.

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Post #: 9

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/15/2004 2:07:13 PM

Rainerle

Posts: 463
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Burghausen/Bavaria
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I wonder if he ever plays the game ?

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Post #: 10

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 1:50:55 AM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

I put a lot of thought into this when I started my latest PBEM. Here are my conclusions:
You need maximum productivity on certain critical types early in the war. With the shooting starts, Japan only has the first year to gain her ground. If you don't have enough of the key types to sustain your ops during that period, then you will pay a terrible price.

What are the key types?
1. A6M2 Zero
2. G4M1 Betty
3. B5N Kate
4. D3A Val
5. H6K4 Mavis

I DO NOT expand more than one or two aircraft factories at start. Instead, I concentrate production in current factories. As I go through and make the needed adjustments that everyone makes, I ensure that I increase production on all of the above significantly. You need to have enough Vals and Kates to replenish the KB on demand, as these assets suffer a lot of casualties from flak when used.

The Mavis is a key (as the Emily will later be) to long range recon.

The Betty and the Zero are really the keys to your first year. Especially the Zero.
For those who have not read the manual, the Zero has a special rule:

17.4 Early War Zero Advantage
During the timeframe December 1941 - April 1942, the Japanese aircraft types A6M2 Zero and A6M3 Zero are given an advantage in air to air combat by having a bonus added to their maneuverability as follows:
December 1941 +5
January 1942 +4
February 1942 +3
March 1942 +2
April 1942 +1

This means that I need as many zeros as possible right at the start, so I can take advantage of this rule, instead of watching Claudes on CAP because they lack the range and firepower.

I also decided that researching the Oscar is a waste of time. Sure, Nates suck, but the Oscar isn't the great answer to the problem. It just doesn't have the firepower to win fights.

By redirecting my research efforts, I put just about all of my research efforts into getting the A6M5 Zero early. Other than that, I only do research on a couple of other minor types, the Judy being one of them. A good number of my research factories are converted to produce Zeros or Betty's on day one.

A couple thoughts:

1. Expanding existing Zero factories is a mistake. You should convert numerous smaller factories to produce relatively small numbers of Zeros. To reiterate another post, I have two A6M2 factories at start, one produces 39, the other 65. Suppose I want to produce 200 or so A6M2 per month. If I accomplish this by doubling my starting factories, I will end up with 208 production on 2/11/42. Along the way, I can expect to have produced 175 a/c by 12/31/41 and 359 by 1/31/42. If on the other hand, I convert 7 small factories to produce 16 a/c each, I should expect to have 214 a/c by 12/31/41 and 431 by 1/31/42. By expanding numerous factories and getting them producing faster, I can accelerate the rate at which I convert Claude squadrons into Zeros. To put that in perspective, I can upgrade an extra Daitai and Chutai by 12/31/41 and 2 extra Daitai and 2 extra Chutai by 1/31/42 over the expansion plan you propose. Your production increase takes far too long to affect the number of Zeros you have.

2. You need to Halt the H6K4 until it converts to H8K's, then restart. I agree with expanding it (I expand H6K4 plant to 32 and Halt it until it converts to H8K).

3. I agree with expanding the Kates, but the Vals and Betty's are questionable imo. I tend to leave the Betty alone and the jury is still out for me on the Val.

4. Researching seems like a waste/bad design to me, so I don't really do much with it.

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)

Post #: 11

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 2:53:14 AM

Zeta16

Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
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Why do people expand the zero's so much. If you are losing zero's that fast you are in real big trouble considering the poor pilots you will have. Remember if you over 1000 in the pool it recycles every plane over to a waste in HI to you. I set my zero's to around 120 a month and there always seems to be a surplus in the pool of over 400 for me. In PBEM I have in mid october of 42, I have 600 zero's in the pool have used 700 and still have great pilots by training them in China.

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(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 12

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 3:00:13 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

not fair, you are playing against me and have taken low zero losses! But I do agree in principle that more zeros in the pool are onlky needed if you use them up at a hi rate...
depends intirely on your strategy..

(in reply to Zeta16)

Post #: 13

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 3:06:09 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
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The primary reason to increase Zero production is to rapidly convert all those starting units of Claudes. I convert smaller factories to Zero construction until I reach 208 per month, that allows me to have all the Claude groups converted by the end of Jan 42 with a surplus.

After I have converted them, I change those factories over to some thing else until I am producing about 150 Zeros or so. Even that number is high and I some times halt construction to save engines.

(in reply to Zeta16)

Post #: 14

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 3:31:23 AM

Zeta16

Posts: 1199
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From: Columbus. Ohio
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I see what you are saying. I guess I am not as in a hurry to change every single claude group over so fast.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 3:33:56 AM

Zeta16

Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline

I guess I try to keep only so many zero groups in combat. I try for a 60 to 40 ratio in combat. After I train a group up I disband it into on of the front line groups. I have some groups in my game with freeboy with 50 pilots in them from doing it this way.

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Post #: 16

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 4:43:14 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
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Every player has their own strategy. I use every zero group I got in the first 6 months of the war. Once one gets chopped up and is down to about 12-14 pilots, I disband it into another unit to bring it up to full strength.

Some of my Zero groups have am average of 30 pilots in them in 80 experience level.
The others have a levening of 5-8 60'ish pilots in them. I find that the lower experience have a better chance to survive if there are more high experience pilots around to "cover their a**".

I only average 2 Zero groups after 6 months in training operations with all 40 experience pilots. Once they hit the average of 65 experience, I start rotating them up to hotter areas to see some real action. Only takes about 2 weeks to get them from 40's to 65 or so when used for ground attack on some backwater base I bypassed.

(in reply to Zeta16)

Post #: 17

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 5:07:49 AM

pad152

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
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The sad truth is you are not in control of Japanese aircraft production anyway. You only control how much of a type is built, not what types.

Example: Change a factory to build Nells, and it will change back to Bettys. If you try to keep old aircraft types in production the computer will change your factories, once a new type becomes available.

Either the player should be in control or the computer, not both

.

< Message edited by pad152 -- 11/16/2004 3:13:45 AM >

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 18

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 5:26:53 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
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That is true. That is why I have raised so much hell over this aspect. I want it to be more like BTR's production. Also the same regards to a/c upgrades. You almost have no control over that either. Sure you can tell it WHEN to upgrade, but not to what.

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 19

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 5:36:18 AM

pad152

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quote:

That is true. That is why I have raised so much hell over this aspect. I want it to be more like BTR's production. Also the same regards to a/c upgrades. You almost have no control over that either. Sure you can tell it WHEN to upgrade, but not to what.

I think we should start a sink, and see if we can get this changed for aircraft production in 1.4.

Either the player is in control of aircraft production or the computer, not both.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 20

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 6:00:00 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
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I would agree, but I do not think it would get far. I argued long and hard for just a/c upgrade freedom (within army and navy lines) and a couple betas shouted back real loud and fast. It will just turn into a if the Japanese player has total control, then so should the Allies argument again.

there was a thread somewhere about it and a poll also. I really do not want the computer to touch my production. too much of a micromanager.

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 21

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 8:10:08 AM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
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From: Mars
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

Why do people expand the zero's so much. If you are losing zero's that fast you are in real big trouble considering the poor pilots you will have. Remember if you over 1000 in the pool it recycles every plane over to a waste in HI to you. I set my zero's to around 120 a month and there always seems to be a surplus in the pool of over 400 for me. In PBEM I have in mid october of 42, I have 600 zero's in the pool have used 700 and still have great pilots by training them in China.

It is all about getting your pilots into the new planes faster. In my opinion, you need to work the Naval fighter groups hard early while the Zero has the manuever advantage. By increasing production the way I described, you can get more units into Zeros while they enjoy manuever bonuses. Once sufficient numbers are produced, you simply halt them. I do not change the Zeros after I get them to 200 because something like 2000 aircraft will be in Zero squadrons of some type and the factories autoconvert to the new types.

(in reply to Zeta16)

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RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 4:38:54 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

The sad truth is you are not in control of Japanese aircraft production anyway. You only control how much of a type is built, not what types.

Example: Change a factory to build Nells, and it will change back to Bettys. If you try to keep old aircraft types in production the computer will change your factories, once a new type becomes available.

Either the player should be in control or the computer, not both.

Is this true? So threads like this are meaningless? We cant go back and produce a more useful plane like the Theresa's and Ann's???
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=682708&key=

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd

I noticed that that this transport is practically useless due to its range in the game, which is based on an endurance of 240. The Ki-59 Theresa, which upgrades to the Ki-54, has a game endurance of 480, twice that of the Hickory! All I can find in Francillon is a 'range of 597 miles' for the Ki-54. Has anyone like Brady researched this or submitted an OOB change request or is the game correct? This was supposedly 'one of the most successful Japanese aircraft of the war' but doesn't seem that way in WITP??? Thanks!

yep in the game i go back and start producing KI-59's again so i can keep my current KI-59 squadrons going and NOT upgrade them to KI-54's!!! i do the same with Ann's because i like them better than sonia's.

this has been talked about and mr. frag basically said that's the craziness of the japanese side.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 11/16/2004 9:39:37 AM >

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RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 6:23:18 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
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I have only tried to go back and produce some Nells, which does not work. I have never tried to go back and produce transport a/c.

But it would not surprise me that you could not because the computer over rides you.

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 24

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 8:25:45 PM

pad152

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All I want is to have the player in control, if I change aircraft production, I don't want the computer to over ride my changes!

Either the computer is in charge or the player, not both!

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 25

RE: Japanese aircraft production...what is best? - 11/16/2004 9:06:33 PM

pauk

Posts: 4162
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From: Zagreb,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I argued long and hard for just a/c upgrade freedom (within army and navy lines) and a couple betas shouted back real loud and fast. It will just turn into a if the Japanese player has total control, then so should the Allies argument again.

Yep, this is a reasonable explanation. But, on the other side, i don't see reason why should i bother with a/c production & research. I will spend time for micromanaging and what i can get?
ok, i can plan how many ac i will produce - and i will pay the price for changing production.
But is there other advantages? what? to get a plane a month or two earlier? with all those restrictions (about rd, spending supplies etc...).. no way, i m gonna stock HI points and engines for "black days", and hope that this will provide my survive for another day, week, month...

this is a great game, but,i would like to see option "allow additional upgrade for japanese a/c groups" in main menu (Oscar to Frank?). Ok, it could be put some further limitations - upgrading is allowed only for 2 or 3 air groups more than we can have in the game right now. "non-historical" upgrade can be really expensive - i dont know, let's say 5 000 PP? or 10 000?

And this option can be turn on/off. All you have to agree with your opponent with options.

Someone cited on the forum "i do not want to be a japanese albert speer". Well, i like managing war industry. If it's worth it.

finally, i do not want a another debate about japanese&allied production. This is my humble opinion.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 26

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