Is this normal?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Is this normal?

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Is this normal? - 11/14/2004 7:57:07 PM

Djordje

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Joined: 9/12/2004
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Playing Japan in a PBEM game, started few days ago...
Bombardment TF containing 3 BBs, 2CLs and several DDs arrived and bombarded Kuching on turn 1. In the same turn lots of APs and AKs came in and unloaded a full division. Next day I changed bombardment TF to surface combat, with "do not retire" orders, left transport TF to finish unloading troops and supply, and ordered a division to shock attack the base.
In the same turn my opponent ordered his POW, Repulse, some CLs and DDs to go to Kuching too. He set Kuching as a home base for them.
Then came combat...
First, his whole fleet came upon my lonely MSW, damaged in the landings on turn 1., Ok, no problem, he was trying to get away and ran out of good karma.
Then, the big battle happened, POW and Repusle against 3 IJN BBs. Long battle, no major damage done on either side, but two British DDs got sunk and whole POW/Repulse TF retreated from battle (which was clearly seen, because they were first closing the range, and after DDs got sunk they were increasing it).
After that battle ended, suddenly his POW/Repulse TF attacked my transport TF, that was still unloading on Kuching beach! No need to talk about the outcome...
And then came the ground combat phase, my divison shocked in, and captured the base. 3 British DDs damaged in the battle that day were scuttled...
So, in short, British surface combat TF came from the sea, lost a battle and retreated, teleported into the "home base" in which it never was and attacked my transports from the port ?!? Or it even went through my surface combat TF without a fight, entered the port, and initiated the big surface battle from port side?!? Whichever was the case, I think it was wrong. His DDs got damaged in the fight, and couldn't escape Kuching, so they were scuttled... But still, they didn't have time for their TFs that were automatically created (damaged ships, slowing down main task force...) to get disbanded, as it all happened in the same turn. So why were they scuttled? Why weren't POW and Repulse scuttled too, they were also in the same hex, in the same "home base" port, they were also in the TF, not in port...?
My PBEM opponent said that this was working as it was designed, I believe him, but I think something is wrong here.
Is it possible to somehow fix this in some future patch, or will it remain, like many other things, "working as designed", "hardcoded" or whatever...?
I would like to hear if anybody else had similar experiences.

Post #: 1

RE: Is this normal? - 11/14/2004 8:05:32 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
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New one on me.

(in reply to Djordje)

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RE: Is this normal? - 11/14/2004 11:29:50 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Djorde;

The damaged British DD's autodisbanded from the surface TF b/o damage. Because they were in the hex with their "home port" (which is not the same thing as their port of origin that turn), they docked in the home port b/o damage. While an odd result (because your surface combatants had not been driven off) it is not entirely implausible in the confusion of a night batttle..they might have beached in shallow water intentionally for eg.

After they entered port, your forces captured the port and they were forced to be scuttled. This part makes perfect historical sense. As they were not seaworthy, they were scuttled lest they fall into enemy hands.

As for the Brit surface TF "withdrawing" from the surface engagement..you do have a point there...but one could also look at it as an evasion at night. There were historical examples in the DEI of Allied surface forces (I remember one off Java I think with USS Ford and Pope?) clashing briefly with Japanese covering forces then tearing into the transports.

The fact that your opponent reassigned the home port is the reason the POW TF stuck around instead of retreating (in a sense.it did "retreat" to its home port

Seems to me, your opponent took a chance though...they might have been hammered by air in the daytime. Se la guerre

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RE: Is this normal? - 11/15/2004 12:40:53 AM

Oleg Mastruko

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Yes Djordje I'd say this is working as intended.

It does not matter whether your opponent set Kuching as home base or not - he could have ordered his TF to go there, full speed, no retire, and would get the same result.

What you should have done differently, is assign at least some surface forces to invasion fleet itself. Couple of DDs and old CLs are good at sacrificing themselves to save transports... What were your Nells from Saigon doing? Allied player should have paid a high price for his adventure...

BTW based on your nick I'd say you're from "ex Yugoslavia"?

O.

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Post #: 4

RE: Is this normal? - 11/15/2004 2:10:25 AM

Djordje

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It wasn't night time battle, it happened during the day.
3 DDs getting scuttled were side effect, the real issue here is TF coming from outside of a hex, fighting a battle, retreating from it and appearing on the other side of the victorious TF, to hammer unprotected transports, while my surface combat TF stood in place, happy with sinking two DDs...

I have closely observed distance in that surface engagement, it started at about 30000+ yards, then after few rounds came to about 20000 yards, then TFs got even closer, to about 16000 yards when two British DDs got sunk, and distance started growing again... So, POW/Repulse TF didn't break "blockade" of the port, (as I would call this if this was a real life situation). I don't think the game is modelling blockades at all. As I see it, the problem is that TF, when beaten, goes back to some other hex (towards home port?), and in case of the battle IN it's home port hex it goes back into the harbour. But if TF originally came from outside it's newly assigned home port, fought a battle and lost it, it shouldn't be allowed to stay in the same hex, even if it was it's new home port.
About aircraft from Saigon, the same question is in my mind too. What are those idiots doing up there, I've been waiting for 3 days to see G3Ms and G4Ms smashing POW/Repulse TF and DDs running away from Hong Kong right under their noses, and still nothing. All I managed to do is to make some Nates do some 100 feet naval attack (they were not bad at all in such a role). My naval attack planes are all in well supplied airfields (36K supplies at Saigon which is size 5, 37K at Camranh Bay which is size 4, more than enough aviation support and airfield size at both bases, squadrons set to naval attack, altitude 9000-12000 feet, range set to 20 for G4M and 21 for G3M, default leaders in all of them, (leadership 50-83), moral 60-73.... Lots of search aircraft (even 10% of naval attack squadrons, enemy TFs detected, and still they won't fly...

There are 107 planes at Camrah (54 G3M with moral above 70) and 283 at Saigon. Ok, Saigon might be a little bit overpopulated for size 5 AF, but Camrah is surely ok, and still no attacks for 3 days. They are only flying their secondary mission (airfield attack), and even that in very small numbers (about 10 G3M&G4M bombers). Some of the TF targets are outside of fighter cover, but they didn't attack even when Nates attacked, and if G4M would wait for Nate escorts they wouldn't see much of the war...
Maybe the moral was the problem, but 70 is not too low, at least I think so, somebody correct me if I am wrong.
Yes Oleg, it wasn't hard to guess was it?

I am from Belgrade.
Sorry for this long post, I'll try to write less next time

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 5

RE: Is this normal? - 11/15/2004 2:20:49 AM

Skyros

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One other interpretation of the battle may be that POW and Repulse slipped past the blockade to get to Kuching??? Your surface force failed to catch them.

(in reply to Djordje)

Post #: 6

RE: Is this normal? - 11/15/2004 2:30:58 AM

Djordje

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

One other interpretation of the battle may be that POW and Repulse slipped past the blockade to get to Kuching??? Your surface force failed to catch them.

No, they were in the battle, got damaged, inflicted damage, and of course their whole TF retreated together (the only thing possible in WITP, since TF splitting is happening after the battle). They came to about 16000 yards, and retreated, so they never had a chance to "pass through" blockading force (if such thing is at all possible in WITP, does anybody knows that for sure?)

(in reply to Skyros)

Post #: 7

RE: Is this normal? - 11/15/2004 6:14:41 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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You were basically a victim of the same stupidity that allows a bombardment force to shoot
up every target in a hex BEFORE being engaged by the CD units. The "sequencing" is our
of whack.

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RE: Is this normal? - 11/15/2004 6:37:24 AM

Tankerace

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To offer a theory that the game is not broken, you claim that because the range opened, that meant POW and Repulse withdrew. If POW and Repulse fought their way past Japanese units outside Kuching, and closed on the transports, and the Japanese surface TF did not close, then wouldn't the range open? The problem with your theory is that you take range openening to mean the TFs withdrew, when in fact it could be darting past, firing as they go.

I'm not saying the game is not busted, what I am saying is that the range can open for a variety of reasons, not just because one side withdrew. They could have closed the range with the Jap. TF, dashed through it, then OPENED the range as they made for Kuching. That theory, assuming nothing trully is broken, fits this scenario.

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Post #: 9

RE: Is this normal? - 11/16/2004 12:41:06 PM

Djordje

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

You were basically a victim of the same stupidity that allows a bombardment force to shoot
up every target in a hex BEFORE being engaged by the CD units. The "sequencing" is our
of whack.

So, when surface TF will fight all enemy TFs in a single hex (if it survives) and will retreat only after all the battles are done? Is there even a remote possibility of changing such things, as well as surface combat battle sequence (jap bomb, jap assault, allied bomb, allied assault)?

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 10

RE: Is this normal? - 11/16/2004 12:56:51 PM

Djordje

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

To offer a theory that the game is not broken, you claim that because the range opened, that meant POW and Repulse withdrew. If POW and Repulse fought their way past Japanese units outside Kuching, and closed on the transports, and the Japanese surface TF did not close, then wouldn't the range open? The problem with your theory is that you take range openening to mean the TFs withdrew, when in fact it could be darting past, firing as they go.

That could have happened, the only question would be why would 3 jap BBs stand and watch POW and Repulse whacking jap transports nearby doing nothing? POW and Repulse could have passed by, ok, though not through, but the problem is that in the same time 3 damaged DDs entered the port. Jap BBs could have been blockading the port, or protecting the transports, I doubt they would just cruise around while there is war around them. If jap BBs were in port blockade then POW and Repulse could have passed by and attack transport TF, but then DDs couldn't have ended up in port. If Jap BBs were protecting the transports then 3 DDs might be able to reach the port, but then no transports should have been hurt...
All this is mumbo-jumbo, free imagination about what might have happened, but the game just generates some numbers and we get the results. If this was one isolated incident then ok, no big deal, but I get the feeling that this is what will happene every time, so after dozen such occasions we all might run out of stories to explain all possibilities that could have happened

Like Mike Scholl said, sequencing is the problem here...

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 11

RE: Is this normal? - 11/16/2004 1:24:18 PM

Kereguelen

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Hi,

one possible explanation for the behaviour of the Japanese BBs could be that they did run out of ammo after first bombarding Kuching and then battling the POW TF.

Check the ammo of the BBs involved!

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Post #: 12

RE: Is this normal? - 11/16/2004 5:52:43 PM

Djordje

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Hi,

one possible explanation for the behaviour of the Japanese BBs could be that they did run out of ammo after first bombarding Kuching and then battling the POW TF.

Check the ammo of the BBs involved!

No, they had some ammo left. I don't think that ships in TF will ever spend all the ammo on a single bombard mission. Cannot check ammo levels as I don't have the save anymore, but BBs did fight properly, the problem was what happened after the surface battle (as there was no possibility of second surface battle between Jap BBs and POW/Repulse since the first one was during the day combat phase, and POW/Repulse still had to fight all other TFs in Kuching hex (transports)) - game is designed that way

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Post #: 13

RE: Is this normal? - 11/16/2004 7:27:13 PM

tanksone

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From: St Paul, Mn.
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Question, what was the weather like where your planes were ( thunderstorms? ) and also what was the weather like where the ship combat took place. Also could the PoW and company have gotten lucky and caught the Japanese BB's going in the wrong direction, hence the seperation during combat, combine that with PoW's speed don't you think that would help increase the space distance between to two TF's?

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Post #: 14

RE: Is this normal? - 11/16/2004 7:55:56 PM

Milman

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From: Serbia
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I am allied general wich decide to send TF on Die or win mision in North Borneo . I do that all time in single player campaign and notice that TF will fly from homebase only if enemy TF is superior than my TF .

< Message edited by Milman -- 11/16/2004 10:02:43 PM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Is this normal? - 11/20/2004 3:40:19 AM

Djordje

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tanksone

Question, what was the weather like where your planes were ( thunderstorms? ) and also what was the weather like where the ship combat took place. Also could the PoW and company have gotten lucky and caught the Japanese BB's going in the wrong direction, hence the seperation during combat, combine that with PoW's speed don't you think that would help increase the space distance between to two TF's?

Weather in Saigon and Kompong was ok, my planes were flying other mission, mainly airfield attacks on Singapore and other bases around, although it was their secondary mission, primary was naval and they ignored it. Weather in Kuching was also ok, if I recall correctly there were some seaplanes from POW and Repulse trying to bomb my BBs that day.

(in reply to tanksone)

Post #: 16