RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 50 ships in day and night)...

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 50 ships in day and night)...

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 50 ships in day and night)...

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 4:48:03 AM

Wilhammer
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline

Missing from the game is any restrictions based on doctrine and politics.

The B-29 was not used tactically as an anti-shipping weapon for two reasons:

1. It was the Navy's job, and the Navy was opposed to anti Shipping mission of the USAAF.

2. Stategic Bombing (this would include mining of ports) was the reason for the Heavy Bomber Cult. They would not divert precious B-29s to anti-Shipping strike.

In the game, we can use the equipment for whatever we wish.

-----------------

A similar effect occurs for Japan. The IJA and IJN were not in agreement much of the time, but the player is not bothered by this.

The IJA has lots of armor units, and I have decided the best use is to pull them all together and mass them in China and Burma/India. The shock/pursue dynamic would make Rommel proud in this game.

My Japanese Army practices a blitzkrieg style of warfare - massed armor and dive bombers with my best infantry divisions and concentrated artillery.

This method was not practiced by the real IJA.

< Message edited by Wilhammer -- 12/18/2004 9:49:29 PM >

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 31

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 5:13:42 AM

pad152
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline

Regarding B29's:

quote:

If they can bomb industrial areas why can't they bomb port areas? Let's fix the problem instead of hobbling B29's.

Agree!

quote:

I'm not sure B-29's ever attacked at 10,000 ft. in daylight

Agree!

Solution:

Limit the alt to 15,000-20,000ft. min for B-29's reguardless of mission.

(in reply to Wilhammer)

Post #: 32

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 5:19:52 AM

Ron Saueracker
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I'm not sure of when it occurred but I believe the Luftwaffe pulled off a very devastating raid on the shipping in Naples harbor in late 1943. Sorry no statistics but I do seem to recall some kind of incident like this. Also I'm pretty sure it was high level bombing at night.

That was Bari and was accomplished by JU88s. And, surprise surprise, no torps were used to guarantee all planes had a target.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 33

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 5:30:34 AM

Jorm
Matrix Hero

Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Regarding B29's:

quote:

If they can bomb industrial areas why can't they bomb port areas? Let's fix the problem instead of hobbling B29's.

Agree!

quote:

I'm not sure B-29's ever attacked at 10,000 ft. in daylight

Agree!

Solution:

Limit the alt to 15,000-20,000ft. min for B-29's reguardless of mission.

The B-29s were used to firebomb at night at 7000 feet

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 34

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 5:31:53 AM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The B-29 buildout and development actually cost more than the Manhattan project

Holy Cow!

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 35

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 5:34:29 AM

spence
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

The port raid I was thinking of was the Luftwaffe's raid on Bari in December 43.
A low level raid by 105 Ju-88s at dusk resulted in the sinking of 17 merchant ships and the damaging of 8 more. The ships were very tightly packed in a relatively small harbor with every slip occupied. The Germans achieved total surprise coming in below the Allied radar horizon and finding the harbor brightly lit (in order to speed unloading operations). Apparently the explosion of one ship laden with ammunition severely damaged a number of nearby ships as well. Also the sinking of one American Liberty Ship resulted in the release of 100 tons of mustard gas.

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 36

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 5:34:35 AM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

The B-29s were used to firebomb at night at 7000 feet

Yep, it's in that link Jorm provided.

(in reply to Jorm)

Post #: 37

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 5:45:52 AM

Jorm
Matrix Hero

Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Not related to this thread but here goes. During development, it was decided to allow twin engine bombers and larger aircraft to torpedo ships in port (disbanded). I asked for this decision to be reversed because I know of not one single occurence of this happening during the war in any theatre (not talking roadsteads here,but ports). Nobody else could point one out after I challenged them to point out a single historical precedent.

3rd December 1940, 2x SM79's torpedoed HMS Glasgow while at anchor in Suda bay, ie in port

September 1940 6x beauforts of 22 Sqn made night torp attacks against shipping in Cherbourg harbour

FO K. Cambell of 22 Sqn (Beauforts) won a VC (Postumous) for putting a torp into Gneisenau while Docked

Excellent! I found out about the Gneisenau after my first comments on this
about six months ago, but that was it. Were the Glasgow and merchants in other examples actually IN the tight confines of the harbor as opposed to middle of a bay, exposed onthe outside of a nest etc.?

That was pretty quick but Idoubt if many other examples areout there. In WITP, you can get this result during a 12 hour phase. Seems too common an occurance to me by a wide margin.

Thanks for the replay. What areyour thoughts on this Jorm?

HI Ron
ill have to wait till tomorrow to get a book from work that covers RAF torpedo bomber squadron operations.
However, i have read it and from memory it points out that chance of surviving as a beaufort torp bomber pilot was somenthing lik 13 or 17 % for a tour or duty and 3 % for a 2nd tour of duty.
I know the Wellington torp bombers and Torbeaus from Malta had ample oprtunity to attack itialian shipping in harbnour, but didnt, they always waited until the ships were in convoy on their way to Nth Africa. there must have been a reason forthis wait given the high priority givento cutting Nth aftican convoys by the RAF.

So , while i cant say for sure, from what ive read the strikes on ships in port by multi engine torp bombers at least from the RAF and Regina aeronautica <sp?> were very limted.
I doubt it will ever happen but my thoughts would be to allow torp strtikes on a 'reconed' port but with very heavy moral/fatigue penalties and perhaps increase the effectiveness of AA units in in a port hex <shrug>
it all gets pretty complex to have a program that is sophisticated enough to model 'every' possible aircraft operation.

cheers
Paul

< Message edited by Jorm -- 12/19/2004 3:52:12 AM >

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 38

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 8:16:50 AM

Jim D Burns
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

Personally I think the problem with the model isn’t the chance to hit a ship, rather it’s the fact every single plane in the raid has its own chance to hit a ship. The reason heavy bombers weren’t used for surgical bombing is because they bombed as a formation. So if the lead ship hit the target, the rest were going to miss because they released their bombs together as a group and only the lead ship was aiming.

If a port is full of ships then perhaps a few more ships might get hit if they were anchored close to the target ship, but the cost (dollars spent on bombs fuel etc.) of the raid was far too high to justify the use of heavies in a surgical strike role during WWII. The game should probably force heavies to bomb as groups of 6 planes, and if a ship gets hit once by a group that’s it, the rest of the bombs are considered to miss. This would be far more realistic I think and you wouldn’t have to nerf the heavies or prevent the port attacks all together. I also think the supply cost for heavy bombing raids needs to be tripled or more, these were very expensive operations and simply bombing merchants in ports was deemed non-cost effective.

Jim

_____________________________

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 39

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 8:45:46 AM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

I saw on a show about the Aleutians compaign recently that the B24's bombed singly, and at low level to get under the cloud cover. They went in one after another. They showed interviews with pilots on this.

I agree that there's a way things were usually done, but there were plenty of exceptions, some that apparently happened frequently enough for us to be concerned about.

I think we have enough info to agree:

1) "No torps for multi-engine bombers on port raids" is the right way to go.
2) Single engine TB's with torpedos on port attacks have to be put at extra risk somehow:
---a) increased AA effect?
---b) increased ops losses?
---c) increased chance of abort without launching weapon?
---d) other suggestions?

As far as heavies go, formations, altitude, night bombing, targets all should remain flexible for the player. The key is to get the bombing accuracy to be correct for the mix of target/altitude/day-night, and perhaps the risk of ops losses in addition to more AA exposure when considering very low altutude.

IMO.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 12/19/2004 6:48:48 AM >

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 40

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 8:54:19 AM

Ron Saueracker
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I saw on a show about the Aleutians compaign recently that the B24's bombed singly, and at low level to get under the cloud cover. They went in one after another.

I agree that there's a way things were usually done, but there were plenty of exceptions, some that apparently happened frequently enough for us to be concerned about.

I think we have enough info to agree:

1) "No torps for multi-engine bombers on port raids" is the right way to go.
2) Single engine TB's with torpedos on port attacks have to be put at extra risk somehow:
---a) increased AA effect?
---b) increased ops losses?
---c) increased chance of abort without launching weapon?
---d) other suggestions?

As far as heavies go, formations, altitude, night bombing, targets all should remain flexible for the player. The key is to get the bombing accuracy to be correct for the mix of target/altitude/day-night, and perhaps the risk of ops losses in addition to more AA exposure when considering very low altutude.

IMO.

What about barrage balloons, port torpedo defences like anti torpedo nets, port flak defences, search lights. By allowing the basically unprecedented attacks and not the historical defences, the attacker is getting his cake and is not only eating it but it is being fed to him by nude babes.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 41

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 8:57:58 AM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I saw on a show about the Aleutians compaign recently that the B24's bombed singly, and at low level to get under the cloud cover. They went in one after another.

I agree that there's a way things were usually done, but there were plenty of exceptions, some that apparently happened frequently enough for us to be concerned about.

I think we have enough info to agree:

1) "No torps for multi-engine bombers on port raids" is the right way to go.
2) Single engine TB's with torpedos on port attacks have to be put at extra risk somehow:
---a) increased AA effect?
---b) increased ops losses?
---c) increased chance of abort without launching weapon?
---d) other suggestions?

As far as heavies go, formations, altitude, night bombing, targets all should remain flexible for the player. The key is to get the bombing accuracy to be correct for the mix of target/altitude/day-night, and perhaps the risk of ops losses in addition to more AA exposure when considering very low altutude.

IMO.

What about barrage balloons, port torpedo defences like anti torpedo nets, port flak defences, search lights. By allowing the basically unprecedented attacks and not the historical defences, the attacker is getting his cake and is not only eating it but it is being fed to him by nude babes.

Well...

quote:

2) Single engine TB's with torpedos on port attacks have to be put at extra risk somehow:
---a) increased AA effect?
---b) increased ops losses?
---c) increased chance of abort without launching weapon?
---d) other suggestions?

What further restrictions do you think we should add on single engine TB's making torpedo attacks in ports?

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 42

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 9:04:14 AM

Ron Saueracker
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

They are all great suggestions, but I tried to nix the torp port attacks and lost. As for port attacks in general, your ideas hit the mark...much more difficult a task than as is being depicted in the game. Hope you can convince them to alter it.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 43

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 9:14:49 AM

Jim D Burns
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

2) Single engine TB's with torpedos on port attacks have to be put at extra risk somehow:
---a) increased AA effect?
---b) increased ops losses?
---c) increased chance of abort without launching weapon?
---d) other suggestions?

What further restrictions do you think we should add on single engine TB's making torpedo attacks in ports?

I think all ports and airfields should have intinsic AAA. Perhaps tied to the actual port level, say 2 x 20mm and 1 x 40mm gun per point of port or airfield at the base? This should be combined with the total AAA of all ships and units in the base as well I think. Just because your bombing the airfield doesn't mean the ship in port can't contribute there AAA guns to the defense of the base. If all airfields can be naval bombarded, then the ships in port should be able to help in their defense as well.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 12/19/2004 7:15:05 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 44

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 9:16:29 AM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

If it turns out that this set of stuff is too much to change (code-wise), then I certainly would vote with you:

"NO torpedo port attacks except Pearl Harbor on turn 1. Bombers on port attacks always load bombs otherwise."

PH was a special case - specially planned for and specifically not defended against because thought impossible. Until it happened.

Even if the stuff I suggested does fly, we still have to get people to agree on the details (ops losses, flak modifier, etc.). I think we've made progress but the details remain.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 45

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 9:29:18 AM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I think all ports and airfields should have intinsic AAA. Perhaps tied to the actual port level, say 2 x 20mm and 1 x 40mm gun per point of port or airfield at the base? This should be combined with the total AAA of all ships and units in the base as well I think.

I think (others who know better should comment) that all the bases AAA is modeled in the units at the base: Base Forces and AA units. Bases that are empty (of such units) are really empty of defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Just because your bombing the airfield doesn't mean the ship in port can't contribute there AAA guns to the defense of the base. If all airfields can be naval bombarded, then the ships in port should be able to help in their defense as well.

I think they do already. It's in the manual somewhere. If ships are docked, somthing like half of their AAA is considered effective and added to the bases AAA (from Base Forces and AA units). Also, docked ships get AAA protection from the base.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 46

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 9:35:14 AM

Ron Saueracker
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The port raid I was thinking of was the Luftwaffe's raid on Bari in December 43.
A low level raid by 105 Ju-88s at dusk resulted in the sinking of 17 merchant ships and the damaging of 8 more. The ships were very tightly packed in a relatively small harbor with every slip occupied. The Germans achieved total surprise coming in below the Allied radar horizon and finding the harbor brightly lit (in order to speed unloading operations). Apparently the explosion of one ship laden with ammunition severely damaged a number of nearby ships as well. Also the sinking of one American Liberty Ship resulted in the release of 100 tons of mustard gas.

No room for torps.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 47

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 12:24:20 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

As promised here are test results against warships when EXP is set to 50 (instead of original 70) - everything else is same!

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 50 and morale is set to 70.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 2x CV, 3x BB, 6x CA and 8x DD ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 78

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 13, on fire
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 3
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 5
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 5, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CA Takao, Bomb hits 1
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 6
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 86

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 10, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 6, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 5, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 5, on fire
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 3
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
CA Takao, Bomb hits 1
DD Naganami, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
14 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 79

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 7
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 6, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 5, on fire
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 1
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 8

Port hits 4
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 78

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 8
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 6, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 13, on fire, heavy damage
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 4
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1
DD Makigumo, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 5, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 11, on fire
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 4
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 33

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

When lowering the EXP from 70 to 50 there were less hits (especially at night) but overall still lots of hits...

Again please note that although there are large number of hits (which is too high IMHO) the SYS damage is rather low because all impacts were against BB/CA ships that have armour. When CV was hit the SYS damage was always high (flight deck was penetrated because there was no armour).

Also note that lots and lots of equipment and weapons were destroyed on ships that suffered semi low SYS damage (BBs/CAs) and lost of fires were started.

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 48

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 12:37:57 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

As promised here are test results against transport when EXP is set to 50 (instead of original 70) - everything else is same!

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 50 and morale is set to 70.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 83

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 82

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Iro, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 75

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 2
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 5, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 2
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 1
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 31

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

When lowering the EXP from 70 to 50 there were less hits (especially at night) but overall still lots of hits and lots of damage (around two screens worth in WitP list of heavily SYS damaged Japanese ships)...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 49

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:03:01 PM

IKerensky
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline

Bomb loads increased and operating losses declined in part due to less strain on engines at lower altitudes. Bombing accuracy increased substantially, and averaged 35 to 40 percent within 1,000 feet of the aiming point in daylight attacks from 20,000 feet or lower.

Wich means 2 thing:
- 10% accuracy at 30.000 feet were also within 1.000 feet of aiming.
- 1,000 feet of aiming point is a hit for City bombing but a miss for Ship and probably even Port and Airfield Bombing.

Releasing the bombs to close to the ground probably severely narrow their dispersion wich strangely means they are more effective as a whole. Remember the bombing/artillery rules : after a certain amount of explosives have been delivered to an area the return effect drop to nothingless quite fast.

About WITP way of modeling Level Air Bombing ( especially of tactical target ):

- We get too much hit because:

- Every plane roll to bomb with his own aiming wich is totally innacurate as in history they are pack bombing.
- Every single bomb get a roll wich is also innacurate as it greatly help multi load over single load. ( 2 x 50 kg aren't more destructive than 1x100 kg, I am not even sure they really have more chance to hit... ).

Simple way of solving it:

- Have the whole mission bomb as a whole:

- Each Squadron leader make a roll to see if he get on the target. This determine the percentile of his squadron bombing that are effective.
- Calculate the total amount of bomb load delivered ( in Tons !! ) for ALL squadrons.
- Apply modifier for dispersion, altitude, precision, kind of target.
- Cross reference on a table to give the amount of damage to this target kind for this amount of explosive ( apply a random factor, also seriously crush the nuimbers at top of the table so the more the lesser ).
- Randomly determine the amount of ship hits based on the volume of fire, the number of ships and historical stats ( port level and/or fort being used to determine the amount of protection the ships have ) and also randomly determine the kind of bomb that do hit the ship.

I guess this is the best way we can get "historical" result on thoses operation.

And I think some of the routines could be get back from BTR.

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 50

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:05:49 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

As promised here are test results against warships when B-29's are substituted by B-17E's.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
In order to achieve this I just changed aircraft type used by bomber groups from B-29 to B-17E. This way all pilots are same and leaders are also the same. I also changed B-17E endurance to match the endurance of B-29 (without this they would lack range).

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-17E's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-17E's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-17E's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 2x CV, 3x BB, 6x CA and 8x DD ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 87

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 5
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 4
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 6, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 2
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 2
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1
DD Makinami, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 91

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 8 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 6
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 3
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 5
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 2
DD Tamanami, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 88

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 4
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 8, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 10, on fire
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 90

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 9, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 4
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 6
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 9, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 83

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 4, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 3
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 5
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 4, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 4

Port hits 4
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
48 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 35

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 2
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

It is very interesting to note that there is significant drop in hits from B-17E's compared to B-29's. Since the number of used planes was same and for both planes the range to target was in "Normal" range the only apparent difference was the number of bombs carried. The B-29 on "Normal" range can carry 40x 500 lb bombs while B-17E can carry 12x 500 lb bombs.

This means that number of bombs carried (and used) plays mayor role in bombing!

IMHO this should be true for bombing large area targets (like LCU's, airfields and ports) but not for individual targets as ships where accurate aiming is what should matter most (although more bombs mean longer stream but that would only matter if bombs are dropped against longest side of target - i.e. alongside)...

What do you think gentleman?

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 51

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:09:41 PM

Raverdave
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Just to add to witpqs remarks consider the following:-

Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 90

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 11, on fire
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
CA Takao, Bomb hits 1
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 6, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 12, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 3
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1
DD Naganami, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

There are 3600 bombs falling from 90 aircraft........46 bombs hit ships.............1.27% of the bombs found a target. Sorry but I fail to see what is wrong here.

Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 35

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 1
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 1
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 1

In this example 1400 bombs were dropped of which 4 hit a target, that is 0.265% of the bomb load. Once again I fail to see the problem. Lets move onto another example.

B-29 Superfortress x 89

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Iro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy damage
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1

3560 bombs fell of which 78 found a target.........2.19% of the bomb load carried found a ship target. I just don't think that when you look at the percentages that there is a problem with this.

However, IF the attacks were delivered at 30,000 feet and we STILL see the same % of bombs hitting the target then yes I would agree that there is a problem, but as things stand the percentages look good considering the hight that the missions were and the targets that were being hit.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 52

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:21:08 PM

Jorm
Matrix Hero

Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline

Hiall

some more thoughts

each B-29 is carrying how many bombs ? , you must consider a B-29 worth of bombs per target , ie bombs from 1 b-29 can only fall on 1 target ( i think thats a rule some where isnt it)
so while an impresive number of bombs are beng droped there are only 90 'loads' of bombs.
therefor if 90 loads hit 9 ships thats a 10 % hit rate ? which is high
I dont think the rules allow for multiple hits on ships in port from the same load,
does any one know for sure ??

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 53

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:22:26 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

As promised here are test results against transport ships when B-29's are substituted by B-17E's.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
In order to achieve this I just changed aircraft type used by bomber groups from B-29 to B-17E. This way all pilots are same and leaders are also the same. I also changed B-17E endurance to match the endurance of B-29 (without this they would lack range).

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-17E's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-17E's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-17E's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 89

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 2
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AO Iro, Bomb hits 2
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 12
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
21 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 90

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Iro, Bomb hits 2
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 8
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 92

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Iro, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 6

Aircraft Attacking:
43 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 92

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 2
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 87

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 54

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 2
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

When B-17E's bombed warships there were fewer hits than when B-29's were used.

But in this test where transport ships were targets the number of hits and damage (better say total havoc) for B-17E's was same as when B-29's were used (although B-29 on "Normal" range can carry 40x 500 lb bombs while B-17E can carry 12x 500 lb bombs).

Strange...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 54

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:29:57 PM

Jorm
Matrix Hero

Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline

Is it possible to hit more than one ship with bombs from one aircraft ?
I thought there was a rule some where saying you would only get 1 bomb hit from a level bomber on a ship no matter what the load.
Also can one bomber attack multiple targets ??
ie can a B-17 potentially hit 12 ships with its 12 bombs ? ( it shoudlnt be able to but what do the WITP rules allow) ??
any one know

< Message edited by Jorm -- 12/19/2004 11:31:07 AM >

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 55

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:39:22 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

As promised here are test results against warships when B-29's are substituted by B-25C's.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
In order to achieve this I just changed aircraft type used by bomber groups from B-29 to B-25C. This way all pilots are same and leaders are also the same. I also changed B-25C endurance to match the endurance of B-29 (without this they would lack range).

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-25C's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-25C's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-25C's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 2x CV, 3x BB, 6x CA and 8x DD ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 96

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 10, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 10, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 5
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 3
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
7 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 89

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 10 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 4, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 8
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 90

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 6 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 13, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 10, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 9, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 2
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
CA Atago, Bomb hits 2
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 5
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 93

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 8 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 3
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 10, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 1
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 2

Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
26 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 92

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 6 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 6, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 18, on fire, heavy damage
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 4, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1
CA Takao, Bomb hits 1
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
12 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 60

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

The "plot thickens"... and it gets more and more interesting...

Quickly skimming through results I get feeling that B-25C's scored more hits on warships than B-17E's and that their performance was more similar to B-29's.

It is interesting to note that all 3 aircraft have Norden sight but vastly different bomb loads - B-29 on "Normal" range can carry 40x 500 lb bombs, B-17E can carry 12x 500 lb bombs and B-25C can carry 6x 500 lb bombs.

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 56

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:40:24 PM

Raverdave
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

The other thing to consider is that 60 ships IS a big target.............and lets face it, the 60 ships are not going to be spread over the full 60 mile hex, there are going to be concentrated in a small area.

However, having said that I do agree that there is a problem as shown by Leo when B-17s hit the same target (transports) as the B-29s did in the other tests and STILL get a simular hit %

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Jorm)

Post #: 57

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 1:51:46 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

As promised here are test results against transport ships when B-29's are substituted by B-25C's.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
In order to achieve this I just changed aircraft type used by bomber groups from B-29 to B-25C. This way all pilots are same and leaders are also the same. I also changed B-25C endurance to match the endurance of B-29 (without this they would lack range).

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-25C's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-25C's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-25C's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 96

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
43 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
7 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 69

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayatosan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 92

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 95

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 92

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 63

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
48 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

Oh my...

Again total devastation of Japanese transport shipping (similar to when B-29 or B-17E's were used).

On quick glance though it seems that more ships were hit than before (i.e. when B-29 or B-17E's were used) but that there are fewer hits per ship.

Perhaps this is due to higher maneuverability of B-25C compared to B-29 or B-17E...

Again note that B-29 on "Normal" range can carry 40x 500 lb bombs, B-17E can carry 12x 500 lb bombs and B-25C can carry 6x 500 lb bombs.

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 58

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 2:07:55 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

This is last test in this batch - B-29's are at 30000 ft and bombing warships.

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 2x CV, 3x BB, 6x CA and 8x DD ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 2
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 2
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 2

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
14 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 88

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 4
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 1

Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
32 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 87

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 2
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 3
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 3

Port hits 4
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 82

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 1
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 1

Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 73

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 1
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 42

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

There were much fewer hits by B-29's at 30000 ft compared to 10000 ft but still there are, IMHO, too many of them. The 30000 ft is almost 10 km...

The only thing I immensely liked was the fact that there was no hits at night from 30000 ft... at least something...

So... using all my tests against warships altogether I think that Matrix/2By3 should revisit the bombing routine against ships that are in port...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 59

RE: Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 5... - 12/19/2004 2:19:02 PM

Apollo11
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

This is last test in this batch - B-29's are at 30000 ft and bombing transport ships.

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 30000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 70

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 1
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 79

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 87

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1

Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 89

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 86

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 56

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 30000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

Again there were much fewer hits by B-29's at 30000 ft compared to 10000 ft (i.e. similar to my previous test when they were bombing warships) but still there are, IMHO, way too many of them. The 30000 ft is almost 10 km and transport ships is very very very small target of 100 m x 15 m at MAX...

The only thing I immensely liked was the fact that there was no hits at night from 30000 ft... at least something...

So... (again) using all my tests against warships altogether I think that Matrix/2By3 should revisit the bombing routine against ships that are in port...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 60