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demise of board games? - 12/31/2004 10:27:55 AM   
coregames


Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		Who in the WiF forum thinks computers will lead to the nearly complete demise of board games?
Post #: 1
RE: demise of board games? - 12/31/2004 11:08:01 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline 		The only event that would save the board game is, the world losing all power sources. Thus, not being able to power up a computer we would all be forced to go back to board games.

(in reply to coregames)
Post #: 2
RE: demise of board games? - 12/31/2004 7:11:32 PM   
fahdiz


Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

Who in the WiF forum thinks computers will lead to the nearly complete demise of board games?


I most certainly hope this will not be the case. As long as there is a demand for them, they will continue to exist - and as long as there are people who like gaming face to face, over a few beers as part of a social event, and people who like to actually touch physical objects when they play a game, then there will be demand.

They could become substantially more expensive, though.

(in reply to coregames)
Post #: 3
RE: demise of board games? - 12/31/2004 8:33:58 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Board wargaming is alive and well where I come from. As usual in the publishing world, some companies are doing all right, others not so well. The numbers show a significant increase in sales over the past two years or so. This is mostly attributable to the emergence of excellent new publishers like Avalanche Press and re-emergence of relative old timers like GMT with excellent products.

There is nothing in computer gaming, for me, that can compete with a good, solidly designed paper and cardboard simulation game on an interesting subject.

(in reply to fahdiz)
Post #: 4
RE: demise of board games? - 12/31/2004 10:41:03 PM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Great discussion guys but it probably belongs in the General Discussion Forum so non-WiF gamers can contribute.

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/Greyshaft

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Post #: 5
RE: demise of board games? - 1/1/2005 12:05:13 AM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Board games are cheaper to develop, but not necessarily to produce. Almost anyone with minimal art skills and a graphics program can design a boardgame. There are millions of printing shops all over the world that could print out the boards and pieces.

PC games on the other hand require extensive knowledge of computer code programming. This has become almost a specialized field. Why do you think it takes years for a new war game to come out on a PC? It's not that the "idea" or "creative" process takes long, it's the programming!

For example, let's say you wanted to make a "Battle of Britain" game. There are many sources out there for data and even other games. But you could quickly "create" a board games, pieces and rules in a matter of weeks or a few months. You could then print this out and be ready to sell commercially in under a year. Try doing that with a PC version. The AI alone can take months if not years to code.

The only thing PC games make better gaming experiance, can connect you to other gamers litterally world wide, and many come with built-in design editors which make the whole gaming experience that much better. But as long as there are game creators and designers out there you will see board games. They are much easier to make IMO although more limited to commercial success due to the proliferation of PC's, etc.

Perhaps if there were better gaming design PC programs that allowed you to make board games into PC versions, then you would see hundreds of new games. Only decent ones out there are Aide De Camp, Cyberboard and Vassal.

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JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

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Post #: 6
RE: demise of board games? - 1/8/2005 2:11:32 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline 		Geozero, its not only the interconnection between players. The time calculation of battle factors, movemnt factors, ect., is minimized when a PC is invovled. This, in my opinion, increases the enjoyment of a game. Particularly, a game the scope of a War in the Pacific. I started with board games. I enjoyed them. And would play a board game again if the right circumstances were present. You don't have to dust off the pieces with a PC game

(in reply to geozero)
Post #: 7
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 5:12:31 PM   
Nordic Twilight


Posts: 38
Joined: 9/27/2004
Status: offline 		The great advantage of board wargames is as already touched upon, is the social aspect and the interaction between people. It is much more difficult ( though not impossible ) to do this with computer orientated games.

The great advantage of computer games is the book keeping / logistical element is run smoothly by your digitised 'aide-de-camps', who take the mundane but vital leg work out of the equation and allow the players to concentrate on strategy.

Take WitP..... you are not going to get a much more realistic portrayal of the conflict than this, but imagine having to work out fuel usage/endurance/ammo/supplies etc etc if it was a board wargame, and together with Uncommon Valour ( WitP's smaller but highly commendable little brother ), they are both firmly entrenched as my favourite wargame's.

I played SPI's War in Europe for years, and although enjoyable, was too generalised to be 'realistic'. WiF came the closest for me to WWII's grand strategy and was an excellent historical simulation with the odd frightener in it if your opponent did something different.
I loved the 'Ships In Flames' add-on as it made Naval Operations absolutely riveting, and at times times so scary that I felt I might 'keel over'

As time went on with BWiF, the book keeping aspect did become a chore......a necessary chore but a chore none the less, and I felt one really needed a little 'aide-de-camp', instead of the piles of aide memoires and little 'Don't Forget....' notes.

Both have there pros and cons......lets use both to enhance our hobby and interest in military history

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Our lives maybe more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy

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Post #: 8
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 6:02:00 PM   
EnPeaSea


Posts: 42
Joined: 12/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

Who in the WiF forum thinks computers will lead to the nearly complete demise of board games?


I that simple board games like checkers, monopoly, and scrabble are not going to disappear anytime soon. However, complex board games with extensive book-keeping will probably continue to diminish.

(in reply to coregames)
Post #: 9
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 7:11:04 PM   
CatLord


Posts: 312
Joined: 10/21/2002
From: Lausanne, Switzerland
Status: offline 		Simple boardgames are still a must in my family. We are regularly playing the "Colons of Katane" each time we are all together (this christmas for example) despite all of us being now working or finishing our studies, and having kids.

I cannot see myself playing games on computers with my bro and sisters, but I am seriously thinking abount buying Illuminati or Vinci for the next time we see each other. To change from the usual Super Cluedo at least

Cat

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Member of the Revolution Under Siege development team.

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Post #: 10
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 8:35:05 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea
I that simple board games like checkers, monopoly, and scrabble are not going to disappear anytime soon. However, complex board games with extensive book-keeping will probably continue to diminish.


Well put.

Board wargames have long since reached their limits of complexity. Computer wargames do not have such limits. Witness the WiTP example. And yet even with WiTP it is possible to imagine, as technology-programming tools-etc get better, an even more complex but still intuitive game. Not so with boardgames.

In time even the social aspects of computer games will improve. Already many play with voice-chat and headsets. One day soon we might see "video chat" right in games etc. Your face displayed on your character in that FPS game. All kinds of things already in the works. Flat Screen LCD Monitors as big as a small desk and displayed like one.

Even in boardgames many companies wish to move towards technology enabled versions to increase sales and profits. Witness games like "Scene-It". These still have boards but as technology like this increases and it becomes more common place for people to have DVR's and harddrives just for their TV's you will see the new versions coming with entirely DVD-based content (ie. gameboard etc all onscreen) and no physical components.

People do like playing around their TV's because it is very common, in America, to have large screens. Since your all physically there socializing is simple. DVD games, like console games, are very simple to use. But this is still a technology replacement for boardgames. And it works so well for Trivia Games I doubt the paper card kind can survive.

So 1 by 1 ways are found to move boardgames to technology. First were wargames because of their complexity, now it is Trivia Games, not long before its almost all boardgames entirely.

And sure we will probably always have Jenga. But boardgames will continue to move towards the very simple, very social and away from the more complex.

For better or for worse, there is little that technology cannot eventually overcome.

< Message edited by Veldor -- 1/10/2005 12:35:31 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 9:47:43 PM   
Siggy

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 2/12/2004
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		No way. No demise of board games here. We play colonists a lot. I am also in the luxerious position to have enough players for Advanced Civilization, seven ages, history of the world, and so on. I even play Squad leader.

I simply think comnputer games and board games are two different things. I play both a lot. Some boardgames are to much fun for playing on a computer. Advanced civilization for instance is far more fun as a boardgame then as a computergame. Same goes imho for games like third reich, 1830, Catan and so on. I think you people are far too pessimistic. Boardgames will never be totally replaced by computer games.

< Message edited by Siggy -- 1/10/2005 8:49:20 PM >

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 12
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 9:52:58 PM   
brent_2

 

Posts: 1990
Joined: 3/27/2001
From: Rheingau, Hesse, DE
Status: offline 		Board games wont die, there's nothing quite like working across the table with a good friend and a beverage and die in your hands....there will always be people who do it.

wargaming is a little different though...you can't quite play some wargames the way you can pull out trivial pursuit at a party for example...wargaming doesn't have the acceptance, another topic entirely though...

Geozero has a point in re digital games...how many people have a game idea trolling about?? (yours truly...) but don't have all the knowledge to produce it? I can draw, I can design calculations, I can produce graphics in a computer.... but can I program a game? not right now.... It's a barrier - no question. Heck - on my desk I have legal pads covered in ideas and hours put into research, but no time to go anywhere with it...

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 13
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 9:58:41 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Me either, I mean how could the world ever give up board games like, CANDYLAND and CHUTES & LADDERS? ;)

My personal all time favorite family game is The Game of Life. We have a blast playing that, but, I swear I always have wayyyyyy too many children in that game and always land on that college fund square. lol

I'll play both as long as both exists. In fact, I'm growing tired of computer games because they are so samey (same era, same wars, same scenarios...boring) and no real improvement on the overall game or the AI.

I'm looking hard at getting the next X-box or Playstation in the future, my nephews are getting of the age of challenge now and they aren't too excited about playing computer wargames with their uncle, but, love to play a good ole console game and beat the pants off me time and time again. lol

The question might be....will consoles be the demise of computer games? ;)

(in reply to Siggy)
Post #: 14
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 10:36:17 PM   
Custer1961

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		I started paper wargaming in the 70’s. By the 80’s, endless pronouncements began about the death of paper wargaming. Among the many reasons given was the rise of computer wargames. Many believed that technology would kill paper wargames.

As it turns out, I think technology not only saved paper wargaming, but also will in the future give us wargaming nirvana.

Currently, due to technology, wargamers have the capability to produce paper wargames (DTP Wargames) with a computer and printer that are on a level of early wargames. This ability is improving as technology increases. Also, the price is dropping. In fact, it has never been easier to put your own design out. To me, right now are the golden years of paper wargaiming. Go over to the Consim sight and your eyes will behold a selection of games that could never be played by one person in a lifetime.

In the future, I see nothing but true wargaming nirvana. Paper wargames lack an AI opponent (for the most part). Computer wargames lack that design-your-own game ability because of the difficulties of programming. In the future, I see someone taking a computer wargame like Shrapnel’s “The War Engine” and putting a AI and complete printing component onto the game and literally giving wargamers the ability to design your own game with an AI and even print out the components if you want. In effect, computer wargames will not be dependent on the rare and costly person with game design and programming ability and paper wargames will not be dependent on going thru a game company. Eventually anyone can make and design a wargame with AI. In the end, paper wargames will be designed with a computer program and can even be printed or just played on the computer against the AI. Paper and computer wargamers merge into one big happy clan.

Programmers will simply compete to design the best “War Engine” program. Wargaming will be in the hands of designers, not programmers. Wargaming will not be dependent on the lengthy and costly development of each new wargame. Paper wargames will not have to pass thru “wargame companies” and will be judged in the marketplace not by a part-time game company guy.
When we stop depending on programmers to make graphics, design a game, OOB, rules and AI and simply create programs that let computer “challenged” people design and build their own wargame, the hobby will never be populated with games growing like weeds on every subject and ranging from super-complicated to super-simple.


A simple analogy:
STOP PROGRAMMING BOOKS-------START PROGRAMMING WORD PROCESSORS. LET WARGAMERS MAKE THE BOOKS.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 15
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 10:48:42 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brent_2

Board games wont die, there's nothing quite like working across the table with a good friend and a beverage and die in your hands....there will always be people who do it.



Some of my favorite boardgames don't even have dice, look at Acquire.

While I understand what your saying, there are really two seperate discussions here. The demise of board wargames and the demise of ALL boardgames.

First, about trivia boardgames:
If you were to ask someone even just 5 years ago this question in regards to trivia games they would tell you something similiar to what you said above. But the fact today is, when people play Scene-It they still have a beverage in hand. They are still laughing and socializing. And possibly even more so. For those I have played it with (many who wouldn't even play trivia style games before) they find it much much more enjoyable seeing the onscreen clips and interactive questions and so forth, especially those that otherwise didn't get as much enjoyment out of trivia games because they knew less answers. Now its more fun for everyone all around.

I've yet to here someone argue why Scene-IT and further enhancements won't achieve replacing "board" trivia games.

The point is, its just too hard for most people to imagine doing things other than the ways we are already so accustomed too. After the fact, its much like an "of course so". But beforehand its always total skepticism.

PC's vs Boargames:
I wouldn't suggest that PC's alone would kill boardgaming. But technology, in general, well could.

Perhaps too though you'd have to define what a boardgame actually is. Does it have to have a cardboard "board" and dice you can throw across the room? How about an LCD coffee table that displays a monopoly board? You can even set your drink on it just like the one thats just Oak sitting in front of the TV with a monopoly board on it. Alright so you still want to "touch" something else. How about a special box you throw your dice in that has one of those laser scanners in it to read them? You could even hook that up to a PC for die-rolling in any game that decided to support it.

Physical Nature:
If the "physical nature" alone is what defines a boardgame then wouldn't a game with a lot of "gear" that you touch qualify? Couldn't "Duck Hunt" be said to be the first game like this?

You can hook an endless number of input/output devices up to computers, tvs and dvd players. Notice how much technology has improved in the last 15 years but we still mostly use the same input devices (keyboard, mouse) and output devices (monitor,printer). These are the things that are finally going to start changing and one of the main things that will improve the overall experience.

In the Future:
How bout the VRglove of Black & White fame hooked up to your TV for any of the games where you make motions? Someone is bound to find a way to integrate devices such as that to make social games a whole lot more fun than they even are today. Then playing those games without it will seem similiar to now playing a trivia game without the dvd content, disappointing and even outright boring to some.

I will likely never play an old-school trivia game again. If I play an "old-school" complex board wargame it will be out of nastolgia and not because I prefer it. I do still play Axis & Allies, RISK, Acquire, Monopoly, and a few other boardgames because, to date, technology has not yet achieved the things I've said it will.

Do you really think in the year 2105 people will still play games with cardboard (plastic or whatever) pieces? If so it would probably be as a novelty item (ie. an expensively custom carved chess set you'd rather not play with anyway). A "museum piece" if you will.

At some point in time, the demise is inevitable. It only remains to be seen whether that time is 10 years out or 100.

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Post #: 16
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 11:09:53 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Disagree for reasons previously mentioned. You ought to take a look around at what's happening in the real wargaming community, where new and interesting titles are available by the dozen. What's on computer these days and where are those publishers going? HOI2? Spare me.

Besides, I have yet to have a boardgame develop a leader bug. Or any other bug, for that matter.

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 17
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 11:23:41 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I'll play both as long as both exists. In fact, I'm growing tired of computer games because they are so samey (same era, same wars, same scenarios...boring) and no real improvement on the overall game or the AI.

You make some excellent points. I agree I'm sick of computer games. But it's the fault of those who currently have to make the majority of them and not the technology. We need a set of games that really feel like something new. And AI will improve in time and as the focus of developer's change. The problem with computer games has little to do with the technology available and everything to do with the size of organizations producing most of them. This is the same reason why we still see 10 new Monopoly games from Hasbro every year for every ONE new game they actually design. Its all about what sells. And most people, for some reason, seem to want the same crap they just bought (see HOI thread).

quote:

The question might be....will consoles be the demise of computer games? ;)

I think the distinction between what a "TV" is and what a "Computer" is, is going to become harder and harder to define as years go by.

My Computer has long since allowed me to watch TV and my TV now even has a harddrive so go figure!

TV's are simple to use as is most technology that attaches to it. Part of that is because most of us have used TV's all our lives. Not true of computers but will be true of most of the younger generation out there.

Are e-mails any less thoughtful than a snail-mail letter? A hand-written letter more valuable than a typed one? Even if these distinctions have some limited value or truths to us, the value in that distinction diminishes with each passing generation.

Some of you might appreciate a car that you can actually work on yourself. 20 years ago this was still possible and you had a choice because there weren't enough positives to the newer alternative. Today that choice is basically gone, because the benefits now outweigh whats lost, and its thus STILL near to impossible for a greater majority of people to work on their own cars. But no one cares about that anymore like they use to because the added benefits have "stacked up".

There just aren't enough advantages to technological alternatives to many boardgames today. But once those advantages start to "stack up" people will care far less about the few, if any, that remain for their boardgame counterparts.

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Post #: 18
RE: demise of board games? - 1/10/2005 11:46:19 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Disagree for reasons previously mentioned. You ought to take a look around at what's happening in the real wargaming community, where new and interesting titles are available by the dozen. What's on computer these days and where are those publishers going? HOI2? Spare me.

Besides, I have yet to have a boardgame develop a leader bug. Or any other bug, for that matter.


Well, if you actually read my posts, you'd see I am not suggesting boardgaming IS dead or even IS about to die in the next year or something. My posts are about the "inevitable" eventual demise of board games and especially the more complex ones such as wargames.

I'll be the first to say Computer Games suck these days. I'd even say most Computer Wargames, if you can even call some of them that, suck these days. But these failures aren't technology failures, nor the failure of Computer Games to achieve what Boardgames do. They are simply the result of, as I said above, mostly larger companies giving the greater masses exactly what they want, the same old crap.

The comment on boardgaming was about board wargames having reached their complexity limits years ago. I'm not aware of any "new" champions that dwarf ASL and company by comparison. As far as "innovative" titles go, that is due to the afore- mentioned abilities of some very small shops to have the capacity to design and release games on their own. And even that ability WOULD NOT EXIST WITHOUT TECHNOLOGY Without the Internet to draw in every last remaining wargamer from the farthest corners of the earth, without programs like photoshop to more easily layout at least moderately attractive graphics, without many of these technological things it wouldn't be possible at all and board wargaming WOULD already have died.

If it is true that there are wargamers among the younger generations, then you will see a similiar emergence of smaller computer wargame developers in the coming years likely with that same level of innovation that can generally only be had by the small shops. That fact is true in many many industries. Technological and "relevant" Programming skills are much more common place amongst, say the 35 and under crowd than the more typical crowd probably responsible for the majority of board wargames today (guessing mostly 35 if not 45 and older). Obviously there are exceptions but I feel the general demographics hold true.

Board Wargame designers, amongst whatever other reasons, generally make board wargames because they DONT have the ability to make computer ones.

This is just not a problem that the same percentage of younger wargame designers will experience.

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Post #: 19
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 12:11:44 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		I don't know about you other guys, but, this is one board wargame I'm surely getting.

http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/memoir_44/

I still have all those old Milton Bradley games like "Battle-Cry", "Dogfight", and "Broadsides". Those were some of the best fun games of the 60's I played. Just nothing like having little minatures to move around and player interaction with the game as such for overall enjoyment of the game. One of my friends and I still have some goes at these old games every once in awhile and Memoir_44 looks right up our alley.

Of course it would be nice to see this game come out on the computer as well. What the ocmputer really brings to the table for me is a solo playing partner for those many times where there just isn't someone else to play against. Though I'm getting more and more into PBEM games using the computer.

Online games just take too long and I find there's just too much fussing about "house-rules" for each particular game. It's hard to find a soul that wants to play by the rules that came with the game, never seen so many that want to stack the deck in their favor. lol

RTS/FPS will probably survive online, but, turn based games will not. Most just require too much time. Whereas PBEM one can take all the time they want and have several games going at once.

If companies keep producing games like the one above, I think board wargaming will survive quite a long time. When you think of the newcomer to wargaming the 12 or 13 year old, something eye-catching, but, easy to play, yet, still takes some time to master are great games to keep the war board gaming genre alive.

Matrix you should hire these guys, or buy the license for this game, I think it would be a spectacular entry level game for those new to wargaming.


@VELDOR

SNIPER AMBUSH (TM) is our new name for what started out as our PC UP FRONT project.

More information on this title will be forthcoming, some basic game features are listed below.

Superb A.I. Computer Opponent to Play Against.


Heh, you know that statement "Superb A.I." is going to be a doozy to liveup to. This is one of those games I look forward to, but, that "Superb A.I." sort of has me skeptical. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/10/2005 5:23:24 PM >

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 20
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 12:15:00 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Board Wargame designers, amongst whatever other reasons, generally make board wargames because they DONT have the ability to make computer ones.

Where do you get THIS nonsense?

As far as graphics are concerned, have a chat with Rodger MacGowan. Computers will never match the beauty of hand-drawn counters , illustrations, and maps.

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 1/10/2005 5:35:14 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 12:22:00 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

Computers will never match the beauty of hand-drawn counters


Never say never. ;)

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Post #: 22
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 12:31:38 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Well, at least like God said when asked if there would ever be an American Pope: "Not in my lifetime."

There's just nothing like unfolding a well done hand-painted map. I have a lot of trouble unfolding computer-generated components ...

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 23
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 2:25:57 AM   
dinsdale


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline 		Why should board games go away when PC games are so often just board games with a bookeeper and dice roller? As "great" as that might be, the downside is that the actual rules are often sheltered from the player. The Operational Art Of War was a classic case of that.

The intimacy of being able to see the entire map, and knowing exactly what the effects of combat-movement-etc are have never, and unless some developers grow some much needed creativity, will not be replicated on the PC.

Aside from that, where's the PC Struggle Of Nations, War And Peace, or even Kingmaker? While the options appear to be WW2 or nothing, then again, board games from other eras are the only outlet.


And did I mention bugs.........

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 24
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 2:36:47 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Online games just take too long and I find there's just too much fussing about "house-rules" for each particular game. It's hard to find a soul that wants to play by the rules that came with the game, never seen so many that want to stack the deck in their favor. lol

I rarely bring up this point but for every great social experience playing a board wargame there is at least one other disaster that turns into arguments or at the very least, a disagreement, over rules interpretation.

This doesn't happen with a computer game. If your argument is "find better people to play games with" then you've hit on another reason I like computer games. I never have to play the same person twice, if I don't want to. Likely with a boardgame, if I'm lucky enough to find someone to play a particular title with in the first place, they are going to be the only one or one of a very few that I can play with at all. So you have to accept the bad. With a Computer you just move on to someone else even if you do get a whiner or something.

quote:

If companies keep producing games like the one above, I think board wargaming will survive quite a long time. When you think of the newcomer to wargaming the 12 or 13 year old, something eye-catching, but, easy to play, yet, still takes some time to master are great games to keep the war board gaming genre alive.

For simpler games that can have components like that sure. Easier to attract new people than with mapsheets and cardboard pieces.

quote:

@VELDOR

SNIPER AMBUSH (TM) .... Superb A.I. Computer Opponent to Play Against.

Heh, you know that statement "Superb A.I." is going to be a doozy to liveup to. This is one of those games I look forward to, but, that "Superb A.I." sort of has me skeptical. ;)

Though no one has accused me of it yet, I do not wish to hijack threads here, so I'd be happy to discuss this over at my forums if you'd like but the simple answer is look at the name of my company, look at the slogan, now look at the logo. It's all centered around an A.I. theme. I bring some experience and background on the business side of A.I. development that I think will map to wargames better than traditional gaming methods have.

But I've also yet to see anyone advertise a wargame as having a "Crappy A.I. that we made by letting it cheat excessively and hardcoding the game so much that our scripted A.I. still works well on occasion" so I probably wouldn't believe it either.

I'd judge a game first more on the rest of the content and description. For instance I could care less if HOI2 has a "supurb AI" or not, because I'm not interested in playing the game. The stupidest game with the best AI still makes a stupid game. :)

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Post #: 25
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 2:40:02 AM   
EnPeaSea


Posts: 42
Joined: 12/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
.

Aside from that, where's the PC Struggle Of Nations, War And Peace, or even Kingmaker?



Kingmaker came out for the PC in 1994.

(in reply to dinsdale)
Post #: 26
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 2:51:57 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

Why should board games go away when PC games are so often just board games with a bookeeper and dice roller? As "great" as that might be, the downside is that the actual rules are often sheltered from the player. The Operational Art Of War was a classic case of that.

The intimacy of being able to see the entire map, and knowing exactly what the effects of combat-movement-etc are have never, and unless some developers grow some much needed creativity, will not be replicated on the PC.

Aside from that, where's the PC Struggle Of Nations, War And Peace, or even Kingmaker? While the options appear to be WW2 or nothing, then again, board games from other eras are the only outlet.



I just wanted to say that you are so right. This is a huge problem, but not one that can't be overcome, even easily. Again its not a limitation of the technology, its just what developers are doing with it.

I think, perhaps, its because the emphasis is all wrong. Many wargame developers seem to think that "realism" is all important beyond anything else and for all the RTS and other innovative approachs made, game abstractions are still game abstractions and I don't think these games are really anymore realistic in the end and many have come with their changes at too high a price. Some seem to be forgetting why we played wargames in the first place (Well some of us).

Yes history and recreating it plays a part, but more importantly is the strategy. Perhaps I only speak for myself, don't know.

And there is a certain more calculable amount of strategy in turn-based games, in knowing EXACTLY how far you can move, shoot. How much that tree is going to factor into you chances for success in the shot. etc.

I'm not saying computer wargames need to be exact recreations but just that developers need to remember what made them fun. I'm not one for arguing over some trivial historical detail vs the way its implemented in the game. But the "loudest" in the community seem to always have those issues first and foremost on their mind. So countless days/weeks/months get wasted on those details vs what makes the game fun to play in the first place.

Anyway, I've more than said my piece, and it's mostly in regards to the future and not now specifically.

So I leave this debate to the rest of you...

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Post #: 27
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 2:55:32 AM   
SemperAugustus

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		IMO the main problem with complex board games is the space they require and perhaps the set up time.

(in reply to EnPeaSea)
Post #: 28
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 3:25:05 AM   
dinsdale


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea
Kingmaker came out for the PC in 1994.

I know, I got it from Underdogs and tried it. It's so hideous and confusing that I'd rather play in my head if the board game wasn't around :)

Veldor

Good points, I'm not sure it's going to change anytime soon, but you never know. Every once in a while someone comes up with a new paradigm.

I also don't mind games which turn out to be more of the sim than strategy. I can certainly live with not knowing the mechanics if you can play-by-feel, and the feel is right. Close Combat might be a perfect example of that IMHO, it was never necessary to know the mechanics of a morale failure, it was bloody obvious and intuitive

(in reply to EnPeaSea)
Post #: 29
RE: demise of board games? - 1/11/2005 3:34:24 AM   
gunny

 

Posts: 995
Joined: 3/1/2003
Status: offline 		If you feel strongly about a a board game then its a good idea to occasionally recruit outsiders and get them hooked. Used to play Starfleet Battles religiously for 5 years like it was 'ol guys friday night poker'. And I think in the span of a year or two later all the key players moved on or relocated due to work etc. Haven't cracked that tin box since.

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